First SCROG failed to impress - how to improve?

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
Let's take just one scenario out of a possible hundred regarding the ONLY thing that matters to a plant, the lumens and quality of the light.

Garden footprint = 25 s.f.

1. I have 400 watts of shop fluors in 4' fixtures, lamps placed 3' above the plant canopy. Age of hood, 12 years...faded white paint.

2. I have another garden the same size using one 400W "balanced spectrum" type HPS lamp, parabolic hood with new specular insert placed 6' above the canopy.

And you're gonna sit there and tell me there is the least bit of similarity regarding what the plants "see", receive, in light output and quality and how each affects plant processes - rate of growth, photosynthetic activity, health, production?

Like I said, many years ago potroast pissed down noobs back and convinced them it was raining. :)
 
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akhiymjames

Well-Known Member
Let's take just one scenario out of a possible hundred regarding the ONLY thing that matters to a plant, the lumens and quality of the light.

Garden footprint = 25 s.f.

1. I have 400 watts of shop fluors in 4' fixtures, lamps placed 3' above the plant canopy. Age of hood, 12 years...faded white paint.

2. I have another garden the same size using one 400W "balanced spectrum" type HPS lamp, parabolic hood with new specular insert placed 6' above the canopy.

And you're gonna sit there and tell me there is the least bit of similarity regarding what the plants "see", receive, in light output and quality and how each affects plant processes - rate of growth, photosynthetic activity, health, production?

Like I said, many years ago potroast pissed down noobs back and convinced them it was raining. :)
Too many different factors for it to be a real good measuring stick but I guess it's good for a person to know what he's getting per watt so he could try to achieve more. I wouldn't try to use this as a measure on all strains of try to compare it to somebody else's setup tho
 

pk_boosted2

Well-Known Member
Let's take just one scenario out of a possible hundred regarding the ONLY thing that matters to a plant, the lumens and quality of the light.

Garden footprint = 25 s.f.

1. I have 400 watts of shop fluors in 4' fixtures, lamps placed 3' above the plant canopy. Age of hood, 12 years...faded white paint.

2. I have another garden the same size using one 400W "balanced spectrum" type HPS lamp, parabolic hood with new specular insert placed 6' above the canopy.

And you're gonna sit there and tell me there is the least bit of similarity regarding what the plants "see", receive, in light output and quality and how each affects plant processes - rate of growth, photosynthetic activity, health, production?

Like I said, many years ago potroast pissed down noobs back and convinced them it was raining. :)
Well the question is then, if all things being constant in your grow including: strain, light, space and power consumption (running same veg and bloom period for all growth cycles ex. 3 weeks veg @ 24 hours then 9 weeks bloom @12 hours). If you dont use gram per watt (GPW) to obtain your yields and output then how can you tell if you are dialing in a strain and getting better results between grows?

GPW is a precise measurement that everyone globally uses to pinpoint how much a strain is yielding indoors and 1 GPW is a standard that you should shoot for. Even seed companies when you look at their descriptions and yield content regards that a particular strain can yield between 0.8 gpw and 1.0 gpw under 1000w lamp fixtures.

How is GPW a bullshit unit of measurement? Given all things are constant: strain, lamp/bulb size, room, containers and light cycle. Assuming these are the basic factors heres 2 examples..

So my grow room is a 10x10. Im running exactly 6 plants per light or 24 plants. Im running 4 weeks of veg @24 hours per day and 9 weeks of 12/12 hours per day. Im using 5 gallon containers and the same cuts from the same mother plants on all my grows.

Example on my first run #1:
I harvested this run and I was able to get 7 lbs or roughly 3100 grams or 0.78 GPW. OR an average of 775 grams per bulb.

OR
Example on the next run #2:
This time I harvested 8.25 lbs or roughly 3700 grams or 1.08 GPW. OR an average of 925 grams per bulb.

Example on the next and final run #3:
I was able to harvest 7.5 pounds or roughly 3360 grams or 0.84 GPW. OR an average of 840 grams per bulb.

How is using GPW to monitor how well you are growing and yielding on a particular strain bullshit? IMO GPW is a basic platform that everyone uses to measure their yields and if they are dialing in their grows and moving forward using the measurement of GPW will tell you how well you are growing that particular strain and if adjustments need to be made. 1 GPW is the gold standard thay everyone for most part grows tries to obtain (strain dependent obviously some wont ever do that). But seed packages and strain information is easy to obtain and will also tell you how much that particular strain can yield some are expressed in GPW while others are measured in Grams per sq./meter. So assuming that you continue to grow in the same space, same containers and using the same wattage of lights in veg and bloom, and the same exact phenos from mother plants; IF you arent gonna measure your output or total yield in comparison to total numbers of grams per wattage then what other measurement would you want to use?

Some measure a gram per sq meter which breaks down like this: a 10 x 10 room = 100 sq ft. OR 9.2903 meters squared. For its purpose we can round to then tenth and make it 9.3 meter squared. So using 4 lights @1000W per bulb using them in an area covering 9.3 meters squared, then you are left with roughly 2.325 sq meters per 1000w bulb. Since, most strains on average yield approx. say 350-450 grams per square meter (just using a average of what I found on seedbank site I dont know if this is true just using as an example!!)

So taking this assumption you can then multiply that estimate times the 2.325 sq meters that each 1000w bulb covers for space and you get a range of 813 grams to 1050 grams per 2.325 sq. meters. At the end of the day grams per square meter and in comparison to the examples above using the grams per watt (GPW) measurement are roughly the same give or take a few grams. This is because the light and your output or wattage is a constant variable that covers a specified area of growth. So no matter what size room you have or how many containers or whatever other factor you want to change, the ONE thing thats ALWAYS constant is the size of the bulb and the output of watts. So measuring in GPW is in reality the best unit of measuring the output and yield for harvesting to monitor how well you are running a particular strain.
 

akhiymjames

Well-Known Member
Well the question is then, if all things being constant in your grow including: strain, light, space and power consumption (running same veg and bloom period for all growth cycles ex. 3 weeks veg @ 24 hours then 9 weeks bloom @12 hours). If you dont use gram per watt (GPW) to obtain your yields and output then how can you tell if you are dialing in a strain and getting better results between grows?

GPW is a precise measurement that everyone globally uses to pinpoint how much a strain is yielding indoors and 1 GPW is a standard that you should shoot for. Even seed companies when you look at their descriptions and yield content regards that a particular strain can yield between 0.8 gpw and 1.0 gpw under 1000w lamp fixtures.

How is GPW a bullshit unit of measurement? Given all things are constant: strain, lamp/bulb size, room, containers and light cycle. Assuming these are the basic factors heres 2 examples..

So my grow room is a 10x10. Im running exactly 6 plants per light or 24 plants. Im running 4 weeks of veg @24 hours per day and 9 weeks of 12/12 hours per day. Im using 5 gallon containers and the same cuts from the same mother plants on all my grows.

Example on my first run #1:
I harvested this run and I was able to get 7 lbs or roughly 3100 grams or 0.78 GPW. OR an average of 775 grams per bulb.

OR
Example on the next run #2:
This time I harvested 8.25 lbs or roughly 3700 grams or 1.08 GPW. OR an average of 925 grams per bulb.

Example on the next and final run #3:
I was able to harvest 7.5 pounds or roughly 3360 grams or 0.84 GPW. OR an average of 840 grams per bulb.

How is using GPW to monitor how well you are growing and yielding on a particular strain bullshit? IMO GPW is a basic platform that everyone uses to measure their yields and if they are dialing in their grows and moving forward using the measurement of GPW will tell you how well you are growing that particular strain and if adjustments need to be made. 1 GPW is the gold standard thay everyone for most part grows tries to obtain (strain dependent obviously some wont ever do that). But seed packages and strain information is easy to obtain and will also tell you how much that particular strain can yield some are expressed in GPW while others are measured in Grams per sq./meter. So assuming that you continue to grow in the same space, same containers and using the same wattage of lights in veg and bloom, and the same exact phenos from mother plants; IF you arent gonna measure your output or total yield in comparison to total numbers of grams per wattage then what other measurement would you want to use?

Some measure a gram per sq meter which breaks down like this: a 10 x 10 room = 100 sq ft. OR 9.2903 meters squared. For its purpose we can round to then tenth and make it 9.3 meter squared. So using 4 lights @1000W per bulb using them in an area covering 9.3 meters squared, then you are left with roughly 2.325 sq meters per 1000w bulb. Since, most strains on average yield approx. say 350-450 grams per square meter (just using a average of what I found on seedbank site I dont know if this is true just using as an example!!)

So taking this assumption you can then multiply that estimate times the 2.325 sq meters that each 1000w bulb covers for space and you get a range of 813 grams to 1050 grams per 2.325 sq. meters. At the end of the day grams per square meter and in comparison to the examples above using the grams per watt (GPW) measurement are roughly the same give or take a few grams. This is because the light and your output or wattage is a constant variable that covers a specified area of growth. So no matter what size room you have or how many containers or whatever other factor you want to change, the ONE thing thats ALWAYS constant is the size of the bulb and the output of watts. So measuring in GPW is in reality the best unit of measuring the output and yield for harvesting to monitor how well you are running a particular strain.
What your saying is true to some extent but like Uncle Ben said there's way to many different factors and variables for everyone to use this as a global standard. We all aren't growng the same way in the same location with same genetics. It's just way to much for everyone to try and use the same standard. Like you said and I also said its good for a person who's trying to get the most out of a certain strain for their records only but to say that would be the standard for that strain or a 600w light is not right cus nothing is the exact same
 

pk_boosted2

Well-Known Member
What your saying is true to some extent but like Uncle Ben said there's way to many different factors and variables for everyone to use this as a global standard. We all aren't growng the same way in the same location with same genetics. It's just way to much for everyone to try and use the same standard. Like you said and I also said its good for a person who's trying to get the most out of a certain strain for their records only but to say that would be the standard for that strain or a 600w light is not right cus nothing is the exact same
Well u got remember that the light, room size and strain are the only 2 things that are always constant they arent gonna change if ur running same phenos, so using gpw is the best unit of measurement. Or grams per sq meter which is just another version of gpw because your light is whats covering the space youre growing in.

The only thing thats different is some strains arent able to achieve 1 gpw, so getting 0.7 or 0.8 gpw could be great results for that pheno such as girl scout cookies or original og's that arent high yielders.

So say ur running the OG cuts and you harvest 600 grams off a 1k, now u got a standard GPW for that cut which comes out to be 0.6 gpw. So your next grow u wanna try and yield more than that right? What other measurement would you use to dial in a strain besides yield compared to wattage? It doesnt matter if youre running 600w or 1000w because the number f grams is merely divided by the wattage. Your always gonna get the same GPW ratio for the most part give or take a small variance.

Obviously this is only applicable for indoor grows as outside this formula is useless. And all seedbanks and strain information is based off running 1000w bulbs. Most strains come with grow information regarding yield primarily GPW or Grams per sq/meter which is the same as shown in my examples. Large growers.. Commercial growers etc dont really use 600w lamps for flowering. Why would u run 600w over 1000w when space is limited? Very rarely have I ever come across a commercial or large grower using 600w over 1000w unless its dead summer heat and cooling is an issue, but most large commercial growers got big half ton and ton a/c's to run big lights. So gpw is usually based on idea of running 1000w lamps. But whatever ppl w argue about anything on here

Just dont know what a better measurement for yield than gpw or gram per sq/meter considering those are the only variables in a grow besides the strain which is a factor not a variable.
 

akhiymjames

Well-Known Member
Well u got remember that the light, room size and strain are the only 2 things that are always constant they arent gonna change if ur running same phenos, so using gpw is the best unit of measurement. Or grams per sq meter which is just another version of gpw because your light is whats covering the space youre growing in.

The only thing thats different is some strains arent able to achieve 1 gpw, so getting 0.7 or 0.8 gpw could be great results for that pheno such as girl scout cookies or original og's that arent high yielders.

So say ur running the OG cuts and you harvest 600 grams off a 1k, now u got a standard GPW for that cut which comes out to be 0.6 gpw. So your next grow u wanna try and yield more than that right? What other measurement would you use to dial in a strain besides yield compared to wattage? It doesnt matter if youre running 600w or 1000w because the number f grams is merely divided by the wattage. Your always gonna get the same GPW ratio for the most part give or take a small variance.

Obviously this is only applicable for indoor grows as outside this formula is useless. And all seedbanks and strain information is based off running 1000w bulbs. Most strains come with grow information regarding yield primarily GPW or Grams per sq/meter which is the same as shown in my examples. Large growers.. Commercial growers etc dont really use 600w lamps for flowering. Why would u run 600w over 1000w when space is limited? Very rarely have I ever come across a commercial or large grower using 600w over 1000w unless its dead summer heat and cooling is an issue, but most large commercial growers got big half ton and ton a/c's to run big lights. So gpw is usually based on idea of running 1000w lamps. But whatever ppl w argue about anything on here

Just dont know what a better measurement for yield than gpw or gram per sq/meter considering those are the only variables in a grow besides the strain which is a factor not a variable.
Bro I agree with you completely. For growers like me and you I think it is a good measurement for for trying to figure out how much a certain pheno will yield for you and trying to make it better on next run but all Uncle Ben is saying as standard measurement it can't be used cus no setup and growing conditions will be the same. Too many variables but I get your point man.
 

RM3

Well-Known Member
Not only are the various light sources different but increasing yield via light is limited. All of the major ways to increase yields have nothing to do with lights, bigger pots, longer veg time, different styles ie; LST, Mainlining, Scrog, SOG etc. And let's not forget genetics :)

A better measuring stick would be area as in my garden is 5X5, some have a 3X3, some have a 4X4, some have a 10X10. The better question for a grower to ask themselves is what can I do to increase yields in my area ?

Doing area, light becomes a bigger variable in the tweaking process, you can up the wattage ie; go from a 600 to 1000, you can add side lighting, you can implement a light mover.

As a prime example, I have a grower friend that has 80 plants under a light mover in a 12X30 garden space. The light mover has 3 lights on it 2 600's and a 400 or 1600 watts. Now lets say that he hits 2 ounces per plant (a conservative estimate) X 80 plants is 4528 grams or 2.8 gpw

I hope this helps every one see the fallacy of grams per watt
 

clayawesome

Well-Known Member
ur saying this grower would not want to moniter the number of grams he gets per watt to know if he does better or worse than last time? its simply a measure of yield compared to electricity used. it can be very useful to know.
 

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
ur saying this grower would not want to moniter the number of grams he gets per watt to know if he does better or worse than last time? its simply a measure of yield compared to electricity used. it can be very useful to know.
No it can't because it leaves out a dozen factors that are involved in photosynthesis. You can't paint this with the same broad brush since there are no two lighting conditions that are similar.

ALL things considered, meaning the exact same garden - # of plants, clones, temps, watering schedule, foods, etc. a garden with one type of light source will not produce the same as a garden with a different light source.

I tell you what can be useful to know - getting a high quality light meter as opposed to sitting around in a knitting circle throwing out irrelevant terms.
 

Gquebed

Well-Known Member
For me, the gpw is a broad guage... like everybody has said there are too many variables for it to be precise. But that can be said of any measurement of yield. The missing factor in gpw seems to be time. I grow 1 lb of strain "X" under a 400w hid and say i got 1.1 gpw. But if i vegged that 10 weeks what is the measurment really saying if another guy did the exact same vegging for 7 weeks?

So while the gpw measurement can be a good rule of thumb it does lack a time factor....
 

Gquebed

Well-Known Member
So the gpw needs to either be personalized or standardized. Since most people veg for only 4 weeks maybe that should be the standard time factor.

For me, my personalized time factor in gpw is 8 week veg, since i always veg for 8 weeks...
 

Gquebed

Well-Known Member
There isn't one light source in any indoor garden that is the same. It is not a <constant> which makes the gpw ruse a fallacy, and you a fallacy for believing in this joke.

Splitting hairs here. No two lights are the same... true. But any two 1000w hids are close enough to make gpw a viable guage.

And maybe it was your pal who invented this gpw business to fuck with a newb (which i think is bullshit), but it has merit even if it wasn't intended.
 

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
Splitting hairs here. No two lights are the same... true. But any two 1000w hids are close enough to make gpw a viable guage.
Not if grower 'A' has his hung 4' above the canopy and grower 'B' has his hanging 6' above.... both systems being identical.

There aren't two 1000W lamp systems that when measured with a quality f.c. light meter will register the same lumens at the same distance from the midpoint of the lamp. The age of the bulb, type of hood, distance from the canopy, garden profile and many other factors play into what the plant actually uses regarding photons for photosynthesis.

It was a joke on noobs.
 

Alienwidow

Well-Known Member
Bro I agree with you completely. For growers like me and you I think it is a good measurement for for trying to figure out how much a certain pheno will yield for you and trying to make it better on next run but all Uncle Ben is saying as standard measurement it can't be used cus no setup and growing conditions will be the same. Too many variables but I get your point man.
ya he's right, you and i know it. if you can't see the correlation between the light offered and the product rendered then you might as well post in the advanced growing section with the guys that can't see how a grow needs a measure of success. if your bulbs are old then your gpw may suffer. thats up to you to control that.
 

Alienwidow

Well-Known Member
oh and as ben says, your system could suck too, or your type of hood, or your distance from the canopy, garden profile. either way, you have one light with one gpw measure. you fail and you fail, simple gpw math. gpw doesn't care if you didn't replace your bulb.
 

Gquebed

Well-Known Member
Not if grower 'A' has his hung 4' above the canopy and grower 'B' has his hanging 6' above.... both systems being identical.

There aren't two 1000W lamp systems that when measured with a quality f.c. light meter will register the same lumens at the same distance from the midpoint of the lamp. The age of the bulb, type of hood, distance from the canopy, garden profile and many other factors play into what the plant actually uses regarding photons for photosynthesis.

It was a joke on noobs.

Whatever. BTW....you spelled noobs wrong. It is newbs, the pun being within the spelling....you know new guys newbs.

Just sayin... or am i wrong becUse your buddy made that one up too? ;)
 
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