organic bottle nutes killing microherd?

95'ZR1

Active Member
I know true organic growing is using a living soil and little to zero bottle nutes but that always isn't able to be done.

I make my own oil and it is of excellent quality but every once in awhile I would like to add some micro nutes or a grow/flower nutes and I have "sugar peak" by earth juice. I have their sugar peak flower, grow, hi-brix, and grand finale and the normal earth juice micro nutes.

will these affect my microherd if used. I know they are organic but it is usually the chelating acids used that kill or badly harm the Bennies in your soil. So will these effect them?
 

green_machine_two9er

Well-Known Member
Yes. Chelated nutrients will harm your soil foo web. Here's what I use. Big bloom by ff. 100% organic with tons of mircros. The guano company grow and budswell for flower.

Or just make a good tea?
Molasses. Ewc. Kelp. Alfalfa. guano ec ec. Dry nutrients like organicare 5-5-5 with ca. Is always good.

There are endless options. Don't use those chelated anything on your organic beauties!!

I'm a synthetic grower who made the switch to true living about six months ago. I just last week threw away my arsenal of bottled nutes. It was very liberating.

What results are you looking for in wanting to use some bottled nutes. My guess whatever you want there is an 100% organic solution which will not hurt your mircobeasties
 

95'ZR1

Active Member
Nobody? Looks like I will be investing a few hundred in a nice 400x microscope and see for myself. Since I feel many people would like to know if this bottle or that nute is truly "living organic" if I don't have that bottle if you wish to send me a tsp or something I will test it for you.

I know with the EL at least that they recommend to bubble it overnight which leds me to think that not only does this raise the ph but it multiples the bacteria and grows the fungi I'd there is any. Otherwise It would be pointless to bubble it.
 

95'ZR1

Active Member
Thank you for that.

A perfect example which is confusing is Neptune's harvest fish and seaweed product. Yes it's 100% organic and many many people use this to add to teas etc etc. But it uses a chelating acid so would this kill your microherd if so why does everyone use a fish emulsion or hydroslate they all have to have c g eating acids.
pretty much any nutrient liquid has a chelating acid, that's my big question.


also if i were to make a easy ewc,kelp, aalfalfa tea then in a week make a earth juice tea will the EJ tea wipe out everything i previously did?


it's just i don't always have the time to make a good tea i barely have time to quickly measure 2-3 earth juice nutes with a syringe and i let that bubble overnight. Obviously i will stop if this does hurt my soil.
 

green_machine_two9er

Well-Known Member
Nobody? Looks like I will be investing a few hundred in a nice 400x microscope and see for myself. Since I feel many people would like to know if this bottle or that nute is truly "living organic" if I don't have that bottle if you wish to send me a tsp or something I will test it for you.

I know with the EL at least that they recommend to bubble it overnight which leds me to think that not only does this raise the ph but it multiples the bacteria and grows the fungi I'd there is any. Otherwise It would be pointless to bubble it.
A nice microscope is on my wish list. I want to track microorganism growth in my teas.

You can call or email the manufacturer of any particular nute The will have to tel if chelated.

Being recommended to bubble makes me think air activation is required to get micro herd going.

Do you use aact now?
 

green_machine_two9er

Well-Known Member
Sorry just posted and saw your next reply.

I would say yes. But I'm no expert. Useing nothing but teas is the way to go IMO.

Once I'm veg
Then every three weeks through flower. They take 48-72 hours depending on temperature. Not to difficult Or time consuming. In fact less in my opinion never have to ph or tds my teas.
 

95'ZR1

Active Member
I agree aact 8s the way to go and I usually water with a simple ewc, molasses tea every watering and a "veg" tea once a week and when in flower a "flower " tea once a week.

currently I have what looks like a mag and N def. In some of my plants and tomorrow is my water day so I was going to use a Epsom salt and EJ veg nute to try and fix it since I don't have much time to dedicate in the next few days.

I already gave them a foliar spray with some Epsom salt, EJ micro nutes, neptune's harvest fish and seaweed mix.

hopefully that will slightly help but it's looking like I'll stick to the teas.

My buddy who is on a limited budget asked me if he can solely use a high n guano for veg and high p for flower and nothing really else in a tea besides molasses and a little kelp and fish hydroslate.
While I am big into more diversitythe better I told him it would pprobably be fine... any Comments on that?
 

green_machine_two9er

Well-Known Member
As long as the soil is rich. And correct ph. Should b fine. Maybe not the best but as ou said he's on a budget.

For your def. why not mix Ewc into a top dress. Maybe some dry soluble even nute. Something with 5-5-5 with added calcium. I like organicare brand. And epsom salts are fine for organics for your mg
 

95'ZR1

Active Member
Yea i just ordered some organicare grow pure from amazon 5-5-5. I know the Rev loves this stuff and have heard nothing but great things about it.

my only question is if i were to make a high n guano tea or like you said top dress with ewc and the 5-5-5 is it available immediately? That's another reason i am always tempted to use a bottled nute when i see a slight def. I feel like bottle nutes are available to the plant immediately.

If organic teas are available immediately then i will make a nice tea with high n guano, alfalfa meal, kelp and fish hydroslate, ewc and molasses... that should cover all the N the plants could need and add some other diverse nutrients.
 

green_machine_two9er

Well-Known Member
Some n is avail instantly. Some is mobile. Some takes months to break down and be avail. I think the trick is to build rich diverse soil. And look at the teas as activating the micro herd. Which in turn break down nutrients and make avail to plant. It's not so much a nutrient solution as much as a soil activator.
 

Cannasutraorganics

Well-Known Member
Earth juice is pure crap. Big chunks of crap sinking to the bottom. If a nute has big crap that sinks fast, how can you give it to your plants evenly? You can't.
Teas are fine, but only as good as your ingredients. You need micronized nutes to do properly. Canna makes a true organic line called BioCanna. Vegan actually. All water soluble nutes with NO chelates. No rinse at end or PHing. And the best part, you will have more trics and flavors then you get from Earth Junk. And way more yield. No the Bioflora has molasses in it. I add silica at 3 ml per gallon and calmag at 5 ml. Also Budswell from week 3 to finish. In Cali Budswell was pulled by the state. But you can get online... If in bloom you can use just Budswell for great yield and quality. Most cup winners use Budswell. And some only it.
 

Cannasutraorganics

Well-Known Member
Some n is avail instantly. Some is mobile. Some takes months to break down and be avail. I think the trick is to build rich diverse soil. And look at the teas as activating the micro herd. Which in turn break down nutrients and make avail to plant. It's not so much a nutrient solution as much as a soil activator.
The problem is you can get all watersoluble nutes so you don't have to wait for decomp but they aren't cheap. Some of these nute company sells stuff with18 for N. But 2 is ready to use now and 16 has to decompose. So you add heavier to get better growth then shit starts going wrong because all the decomp nutes are decomposing and now your soil is overloaded with nutes and you don't know why because it was fine a few weeks ago. Sound familiar????
Now you rinse to try and fix. But that decomp stuff don't rinse like salt based nutes. And if you are useing salt based nutes that are thought to be organic, you need to rinse every 5 days.
 
Last edited:

chuck estevez

Well-Known Member
Recent Studies
Molasses to boost soil microbial activity has been talked about for many decades and the theory has been that it provides an energy source for microbes that can be utilized equally well by all soil organisms.

However, field applications that I have studied, have not tended to produce many convincing responses. For instance, Recent research by SWEP laboratories, has begun to shed light on this issue by looking at soil biology from a balance perspective (according to the principles of the Mikhail System) that has shown some significant effects on soil biology, but are now finding that the soilfoodweb is much more complex than expected - something Dr. Elaine Ingham (www.soilfoodweb.com) could have told them many years ago.

Results of these studies appear to indicate that the lowest application rates work best for fungi and cellulose utilizers, while some bacteria showed the opposite response, with activity increasing as the application rate increased. So my 'take' on this is that BALANCE is the prerequisite to consider, involving the type of microbes you want to supply, based on what you are attempting to accomplish.

With regard to feeding compost tea microbe population (liquid environment, not solids), in my opinion there is no equal in the field, to Dr. Ingham. However, tea must be aerated and fed more than just molasses to accomplish such objective effectively. [11]
http://www.thesoilguy.com/SG/Molasses


http://www.soilfoodweb.com/Compost_Tea_Recipe.html

A basic tea recipe would be as follows, with the understanding that if larger or smaller quantities of water are used, change the amounts of additives relative to the amount of water.

a. 25 gallons of water, aerated to remove chlorine, add two teaspoons of a humic acid solution (preferably humic acid extracted from your own compost).

b. 1 to 2 tablespoons of humic acid diluted in 2 cups of water BEFORE adding to the compost tea water OR 1 to 2 tablespoons of fish hydrolysate (pre-diluted to neutralize the acid preservative according to the label on the container).

c. 1/2 cup of kelp mixed in 5 cups of water BEFORE addition to the compost tea

d. 5 pounds of good aerobic (good smelling, like deep forest soil) compost with excellent bacteria, fungi, protozoa in the compost. Using a microscope, assess the compost: Using a 1:5 dilution of compost, 400X total magnification, there should be a MINIMUM of thousands of bacteria in each field of view, 1 strand of fungal hyphae in each 5 fields, 1 flagellate or amoebae in each 5 to 10 fields of view and 1 beneficiall nematode per drop.

Additional foods if needed to improve fungi: 1 cup steel cut oats, or bran flour, or shrimp shells (no protein on the shells!) put in the compost bag with the compost

Replace humic acids with the same amount of fish hydrolysate if the plants need a nitrogen boost

NO MOLASSES!!!!!!!!




 

green_machine_two9er

Well-Known Member
Recent Studies
Molasses to boost soil microbial activity has been talked about for many decades and the theory has been that it provides an energy source for microbes that can be utilized equally well by all soil organisms.

However, field applications that I have studied, have not tended to produce many convincing responses. For instance, Recent research by SWEP laboratories, has begun to shed light on this issue by looking at soil biology from a balance perspective (according to the principles of the Mikhail System) that has shown some significant effects on soil biology, but are now finding that the soilfoodweb is much more complex than expected - something Dr. Elaine Ingham (www.soilfoodweb.com) could have told them many years ago.

Results of these studies appear to indicate that the lowest application rates work best for fungi and cellulose utilizers, while some bacteria showed the opposite response, with activity increasing as the application rate increased. So my 'take' on this is that BALANCE is the prerequisite to consider, involving the type of microbes you want to supply, based on what you are attempting to accomplish.

With regard to feeding compost tea microbe population (liquid environment, not solids), in my opinion there is no equal in the field, to Dr. Ingham. However, tea must be aerated and fed more than just molasses to accomplish such objective effectively. [11]
http://www.thesoilguy.com/SG/Molasses


http://www.soilfoodweb.com/Compost_Tea_Recipe.html

A basic tea recipe would be as follows, with the understanding that if larger or smaller quantities of water are used, change the amounts of additives relative to the amount of water.

a. 25 gallons of water, aerated to remove chlorine, add two teaspoons of a humic acid solution (preferably humic acid extracted from your own compost).

b. 1 to 2 tablespoons of humic acid diluted in 2 cups of water BEFORE adding to the compost tea water OR 1 to 2 tablespoons of fish hydrolysate (pre-diluted to neutralize the acid preservative according to the label on the container).

c. 1/2 cup of kelp mixed in 5 cups of water BEFORE addition to the compost tea

d. 5 pounds of good aerobic (good smelling, like deep forest soil) compost with excellent bacteria, fungi, protozoa in the compost. Using a microscope, assess the compost: Using a 1:5 dilution of compost, 400X total magnification, there should be a MINIMUM of thousands of bacteria in each field of view, 1 strand of fungal hyphae in each 5 fields, 1 flagellate or amoebae in each 5 to 10 fields of view and 1 beneficiall nematode per drop.

Additional foods if needed to improve fungi: 1 cup steel cut oats, or bran flour, or shrimp shells (no protein on the shells!) put in the compost bag with the compost

Replace humic acids with the same amount of fish hydrolysate if the plants need a nitrogen boost

NO MOLASSES!!!!!!!!

Good stuff thanks.
I want a microscope so bad.
What so you think about this recipe. I make 2-3 gallons and dilute before per gallon
1T kelp
1T molasses
20 drops calmg General organic
1/4 cup big bloom. Ff
1 t organicare. 5-5-5
Bubble for 24 h
Add 1 cup fresh Ewc
Bubble another 24-48 hours. I always wait till it's frothy.
What would be the harm in useing molasses once or twice a month? I know too much can almost coat roots and cause a bunch of problems. And to much late in flower can cause harsh buds. But if those two things are kept in mind what's the harm?
I'm not one of the crazy molasses guys. But I think it has it's purposes.
I do see how having other cellulose sources could accomplish the same thing.
Also why do you mix up help meal and water before adding?
 

Cannasutraorganics

Well-Known Member
Recent Studies
Molasses to boost soil microbial activity has been talked about for many decades and the theory has been that it provides an energy source for microbes that can be utilized equally well by all soil organisms.

However, field applications that I have studied, have not tended to produce many convincing responses. For instance, Recent research by SWEP laboratories, has begun to shed light on this issue by looking at soil biology from a balance perspective (according to the principles of the Mikhail System) that has shown some significant effects on soil biology, but are now finding that the soilfoodweb is much more complex than expected - something Dr. Elaine Ingham (www.soilfoodweb.com) could have told them many years ago.

Results of these studies appear to indicate that the lowest application rates work best for fungi and cellulose utilizers, while some bacteria showed the opposite response, with activity increasing as the application rate increased. So my 'take' on this is that BALANCE is the prerequisite to consider, involving the type of microbes you want to supply, based on what you are attempting to accomplish.

With regard to feeding compost tea microbe population (liquid environment, not solids), in my opinion there is no equal in the field, to Dr. Ingham. However, tea must be aerated and fed more than just molasses to accomplish such objective effectively. [11]
http://www.thesoilguy.com/SG/Molasses


http://www.soilfoodweb.com/Compost_Tea_Recipe.html

A basic tea recipe would be as follows, with the understanding that if larger or smaller quantities of water are used, change the amounts of additives relative to the amount of water.

a. 25 gallons of water, aerated to remove chlorine, add two teaspoons of a humic acid solution (preferably humic acid extracted from your own compost).

b. 1 to 2 tablespoons of humic acid diluted in 2 cups of water BEFORE adding to the compost tea water OR 1 to 2 tablespoons of fish hydrolysate (pre-diluted to neutralize the acid preservative according to the label on the container).

c. 1/2 cup of kelp mixed in 5 cups of water BEFORE addition to the compost tea

d. 5 pounds of good aerobic (good smelling, like deep forest soil) compost with excellent bacteria, fungi, protozoa in the compost. Using a microscope, assess the compost: Using a 1:5 dilution of compost, 400X total magnification, there should be a MINIMUM of thousands of bacteria in each field of view, 1 strand of fungal hyphae in each 5 fields, 1 flagellate or amoebae in each 5 to 10 fields of view and 1 beneficiall nematode per drop.

Additional foods if needed to improve fungi: 1 cup steel cut oats, or bran flour, or shrimp shells (no protein on the shells!) put in the compost bag with the compost

Replace humic acids with the same amount of fish hydrolysate if the plants need a nitrogen boost

NO MOLASSES!!!!!!!!

I read that and others like it. What I got was molasses at a much lower rate then thought. But not no molasses. Or molasses in watering when not using tea. Once a week only.
I use crap shell instead of shrimp. Deeper living has more stuff in shell.
And Chucky, you left out much in your response. For this to work best you have to properly amend your soil first....
And I thought you were going to pounce on the chelates killing micros.
 

chuck estevez

Well-Known Member
Good stuff thanks.
I want a microscope so bad.
What so you think about this recipe. I make 2-3 gallons and dilute before per gallon
1T kelp
1T molasses
20 drops calmg General organic
1/4 cup big bloom. Ff
1 t organicare. 5-5-5
Bubble for 24 h
Add 1 cup fresh Ewc
Bubble another 24-48 hours. I always wait till it's frothy.
What would be the harm in useing molasses once or twice a month? I know too much can almost coat roots and cause a bunch of problems. And to much late in flower can cause harsh buds. But if those two things are kept in mind what's the harm?
I'm not one of the crazy molasses guys. But I think it has it's purposes.
I do see how having other cellulose sources could accomplish the same thing.
Also why do you mix up help meal and water before adding?
http://www.soilfoodweb.com/FAQ.html
 

Cannasutraorganics

Well-Known Member
was just pointing out the facts on molasses, you just happened to be herebongsmilie
the first link, the guy says in little amounts in tea, but links to what he says is the master of soil and she is the one who says no molasses.
Lol. I know. But last time you accused me of following you. And I was here first so..... Happy growing..
 
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