DNA Testing and Terpene Fingerprinting

[Ace Yonder]

"But I do have one nitpicky thing to say, they absolutely COULD sell you a beverage called "Cola and Whiskey" that is composed of "Coca Cola and Jack Daniels". What they COULDN'T do is sell you a beverage called "Jack Daniels and Coke" that is made of "Maker's Mark and Pepsi" <<<< precisely, this is what I was trying to say. This and also that a bar can't pour the coke into a bottle with their bar's label on it and claim that it's their specialty cola.

But they CAN mix Coke, Pepsi, and RC and then call it their "Specialty Cola with the secret proprietary blend that gives it that little edge".

"@Jd Short For instance, how do you feel about Humboldt Seed Organization's Blueberry Headband being described by them as "The Blueberry Headband originally came from our F3 Emerald Headband male crossed with DJ Short’s original Blueberry. This was bred out for our original project with the Emerald Triangle Seed Company. After its release we continued to work on the genetics, increasing the yield, building more resistance and furthering the flavor profile. Now at F6 status this girl is more stable than ever and ready for the public." <<< sounds awesome to me. I don't know the specifics of this circumstance. But it sounds totally legit to me, and I want to try it.



Again, Im not naming names or going to talk about specifics of any certain company in any further detail than I already have. We'll give that some more time and let some chips fall where they may yet. A lot of this is going to end up working itself out without my help or whining, so why would I risk putting myself in *too* much of a vulnerable position. You wanna know about the seed stock you buy, contact the seed companies and ask.

I'm not asking about the seeds, I'm asking how "YOU" feel about their use of "YOUR" strain and "YOUR" "Brand Name" in their description of it. I would be more than happy to email them and ask them "Hey, how do you guys think JD Short feels about you using his dad's strains?" and they'd probably say "How the fuck would we know, why don't you ask him?" and I'd have to say "Oh, I already did, he just dodged the question to avoid offending anyone, even though he JUST said:

So, here's the thing. Im here now, and I will be speaking my mind. If that offends some I don't give a poo.

 

[Jd Short]

Im sorry, Im not in a position to authorize any seed dealer at the moment. Lets keep in mind, this is a public forum. I currently live in a state where medical cannabis has been legal for a while now and recreational is about to go legal in a few months. However, there are still some major logistical complications in the way of discussing such matters openly. Again, do the best research you can.

Can't say Im personally familiar with the difference between Blueberry vs. True Blueberry. Never ran the True, it's on my list, got the beans. Just waiting for the right time. I'm currently finishing up this f5 pheno selection, perhaps a backcross in the works, I'll see. Im also currently searching for an f13 pheno as well. And playing with some old f3's. The True was selected form a larger gene pool for potency and yeild, whereas the Blueberry was selected for taste and medicinal value.

 

[Jd Short]

I'm not asking about the seeds, I'm asking how "YOU" feel about their use of "YOUR" strain and "YOUR" "Brand Name" in their description of it. I would be more than happy to email them and ask them "Hey, how do you guys think JD Short feels about you using his dad's strains?" and they'd probably say "How the fuck would we know, why don't you ask him?" and I'd have to say "Oh, I already did, he just dodged the question to avoid offending anyone, even though he JUST said:

""The Blueberry Headband originally came from our F3 Emerald Headband male crossed with DJ Short’s original Blueberry. This was bred out for our original project with the Emerald Triangle Seed Company. After its release we continued to work on the genetics, increasing the yield, building more resistance and furthering the flavor profile. Now at F6 status this girl is more stable than ever and ready for the public."

I think the way this is written is awesome. I feel great about it.

But I should add that if you email someone and ask them what the original breeders think of the use of their genetics, and they say, "how the fuck should we know" that it's fair to say they probably didn't have permission to use the genetics and that the chances of them offering anything authentic from the breeder themselves may be slim.

 

[greenghost420]

so you cant tell me who you dad has authorized to sell dj shorts seeds?of the 50 banks selling dj short genetics you have no idea who has permission? are you and you dad estranged? your wasting my time, king arthur is right! and fuck anyone trying to patent cannabis!

 

[King Arthur]

so you cant tell me who you dad has authorized to sell dj shorts seeds?of the 50 banks selling dj short genetics you have no idea who has permission? are you and you dad estranged? your wasting my time, king arthur is right! and fuck anyone trying to patent cannabis!

He isn't Dj Shorts son lololol.... straight trolled us

 

[trontreez]

Hey JD short. It sounds like one of your main gripes is other breeders selling a strain named Blueberry that don't have the exact same lineage as DJ Short's Blueberry, whether it be a S1, back-cross or hybrid of DJ short's Blueberry. Unfortunately as you should be well aware you can't trade mark the name Blueberry since it's already out there in the public forum and belongs to the fruit also. You should have called it something unique (maybe Blu-berriez?) then you could have trademarked the name just like Dutch Passion have done with Durban Poison and problem solved.

Now here comes another hypothetical suppose I have my own completely unrelated strains to DJ short's Blueberry parents and I breed a hybrid of my own with buds the color of blueberries, the aroma of blueberries or that grow in the shape of blueberries. Would you get offended if I called my strain blueberry? Obviously I would not mention anything about DJ short in my strain overview since it's completely unrelated. If so please realize you don't own the name Blueberry either so any other breeder is free to call their strains Blueberry whatever the genetic make-up is. Just because you named a strain Blueberry first doesn't mean you own that name

 

[HGK420]

so you cant tell me who you dad has authorized to sell dj shorts seeds?of the 50 banks selling dj short genetics you have no idea who has permission? are you and you dad estranged? your wasting my time, king arthur is right! and fuck anyone trying to patent cannabis!

You might not be too far off... I got to spend a good hour molesting DJ short one day at a compassion club. Some miraculous alignment took place that placed him next to me and willing to answer questions for an extended period of time so I figured I better not waste it.

I stayed as far away from the usual "is f1 or f2 better?" Questions I'm sure breeders always get and tried to learn as much about the origins of blueberry as possible.

Where I'm from the old timers hold a cut of blueberry that's so over protected and cherished that's bren floating around circles in michigan since the 80's. id give my wife for a night to get my hands on it.

So when I had the oppourtunity to talk to the man himself I took it. He talked about his son about half the time I'd say. About his selection gardens he was working on. Had no idea the strains or numbers. He was very foggy about details. I got the vibe that he hadn't talked to his son on a while and was just speaking in generalizations. This was a stark contrast to the rest of the conversation about the history of blueberry. He had lots of facts and dates and exactness of how it all went down.

Which basically goes like this... (Forgive the memory a bit)

So he worked with some dutchies in the 80's and invented blueberry. He said they found the berry terps in a breeding program and with luck they were able to select parents that passed on the berry traits reliably. The original Dutch blueberry was born. Purple, blueberry, yummy...

Now since this Dutch birth DJ has had to resort to original landrace seeds to try and find similar phenotypes to the original blueberry parents now 3 times. 4 if you count true blueberry which i thought DJ steered me away from since I was being so adamant about "that old timer blueberry cut"

It's as if DJ invented the pit bull and then someone stole the dogs.... He's now rebreeding Wolves to try and find those boxy pit bull traits and remake the breed. Not a sure thing.

So ghost, yes I think DJ and jd are probably not as close as you might assume. I also think DJ had a hay day back in the day and he's doing everything he can to relive that. Brett farve status. That's not saying he won't hit the jackpot again but In my opinion DJ is trying to recreate an energy and moment that has passed. Trying to capitalize with shadows of his former glory..


And now back to my earlier question and your response jd....

I mean why do I have to have some magical curing method to make your strains taste good when EVERY OTHER SEED COMPANY I RUN tastes amazing right off the bat. A 90 day cure really doesn't change the flavor but a fraction.

I'd list all the seed companies I've ran again but they are in old posts if someone wants to see it. Out of all the seeds I've popped your dads feel just like the Dutch plants I've ran. You say "can't win them all" because some people want stability and others want quality but I'm here to tell you that many seed companies have figured out how to give you quality beans that are pretty damn stable. Not all clones, they have minor variations, but for the most part are the same with amazing quality to be had by most of the phenos.

I guess just every grower I know who's had success with Many other seed companies but none With DJ shorts are just growing wrong?

I'm really confused by yo ur stance that somehow I've done something wrong and I just wasn't good enough for your awesome genetics? I've spent $10,000 on seeds over the last 4 years ez.... Would of spent much of that with DJ had the results been different but instead others companies get my deluges of cash moneyz... O well I guess I just suck at growing and just need to stick to buying the seeds that are good for people like me and everyone I know. As long as I stick with MOST seed companies besides dj's is should be fine... Man you guys sure know how to market! I'm sure all those first time medical and rec growers will love to know that only certain special growers can unlock the potential in your beans... Bet you guys will sell tons...

 

[Dadioski]

Couple of test reports and pictures of last harvest. First time I've had it tested and frankly was not sure what I was looking at, but I think I will do it on all strains now.

 

[Jd Short]

I am who I say I am. Believe it or don't. Doesn't change anything about how I feel or what I've said. Just remember my words and one day soon you'll be all, "holly shit, that's what that 'troll' was saying on the internet that one time"



Wow, are there really 50 seed banks offering Dj Short seeds! I must rich….oh wait….The funny thing is is that there's probably more. I went into to a shop a few weeks back and saw knock-offs of my Azure Haze. Wasn't really labeled as such, but nonetheless. The funny thing about it was that they were packaged in zip-lock bags and labeled with magic marker. So yeah, there's probably more.





Yeah, Im aware the name Blueberry can't be trade marked. Stll don't mean it can't get my onion in a bunch when I see the brand being pirated and watered down to crap, or when I see my father being bashed by assholes who only do so to misdirect interest from the authentic Blueberry to their knock-off strain. It also doesn't mean that people can't have ethics on their own, ya know? I think that Blueberry was a genius name. Much of the love of the brand, not the genetics but the brand, are only the name, it worked and it worked perfectly. And if you bred your own Blueberry strain and called it blueberry, that's great. Personally I'd think originality would be important to breeders, so I'd assume they wouldn't do all that work just to recreate someone else's strain, but if they did, and they insisted on calling it Blueberry, I'd only ask that it wasn't marketed as "Dj Short's" Blueberry, you know? I do realize no one owns the name Blueberry, but I also realize why it's being used in the industry so frequently across the board. It's because of both the stabilized genetics that exist within them and also the fact that it's perhaps the most recognizable brand around. So…although I understand no one own's the name, have some ingenuity and make your own brand.





Dj did not work with "Duchies" to create the Blueberry, he created it on his own without help from anyone in a 4x4 closet. He did some work with the 'duchies' and parted ways some time in the early 2000's. Ever since then the products coming from there are not his. As far as I know, this is public information….if not….BOOM, there ya go. And it shocks me to what degree people somehow believe Im obligated to discuss personal business matters like seed production or distribution. Give me a break.



As far as resorting to original landrace seeds to recreate the mothers, almost, but not quite. There are plenty of the earlier filial generations of the Blueberry parents to just pull them from. They can just be reselected form the f4's. I clarify this because giving the impression that the moms must be recreated form the landrace strains gives the impression that recreating those parent strains would somehow take a lot of work. Whereas the truth of the matter is someone just needs to toss out a few f3's or f4's and reselect the parents that way…much easier and faster than recreating from the landrace parents. Also much more consistently reliable.



"It's as if DJ invented the pit bull and then someone stole the dogs.... He's now rebreeding Wolves to try and find those boxy pit bull traits and remake the breed. Not a sure thing." <<<<and this is why I clarified with my last statement. No one is trying to breed pit-bulls with wolves. We have all the access to all the pedigree we want, everything from shah tzu to wolves. We got the pit-bulls, plenty of em. Also the wolves.



"I mean why do I have to have some magical curing method to make your strains taste good when EVERY OTHER SEED COMPANY I RUN tastes amazing right off the bat. A 90 day cure really doesn't change the flavor but a fraction." <<<Im sorry, I already answered this question, Im sorry if it offended you, or if you were too upset to understand the answer. But I gave you a very good answer. Think about it, some terpene's are much more sensitive than others and require much more coaxing to bring out. Also, those are going to be the unique terpene's no one is used to because they're the hardest to bring out. Remember, we're talking chemistry here.



"I guess just every grower I know who's had success with Many other seed companies but none With DJ shorts are just growing wrong?" <<<< Personally, I don't know too many breeders who have had the misfortune you appear to have had with the genetics. Maybe try spending less money and try growing fewer plants so you can pay closer attention to what you're doing. Again, this isn't your average hybrid genetics that you appear to be accustomed to running. |

 

[Ace Yonder]

Couple of test reports and pictures of last harvest. First time I've had it tested and frankly was not sure what I was looking at, but I think I will do it on all strains now.View attachment 3349784View attachment 3349786

Nice work sir, very nice work indeed!

 

[HGK420]

I am who I say I am. Believe it or don't. Doesn't change anything about how I feel or what I've said. Just remember my words and one day soon you'll be all, "holly shit, that's what that 'troll' was saying on the internet that one time"



Wow, are there really 50 seed banks offering Dj Short seeds! I must rich….oh wait….The funny thing is is that there's probably more. I went into to a shop a few weeks back and saw knock-offs of my Azure Haze. Wasn't really labeled as such, but nonetheless. The funny thing about it was that they were packaged in zip-lock bags and labeled with magic marker. So yeah, there's probably more.





Yeah, Im aware the name Blueberry can't be trade marked. Stll don't mean it can't get my onion in a bunch when I see the brand being pirated and watered down to crap. It also doesn't mean that people can't have ethics on their own, ya know? I think that Blueberry was a genius name. Much of the love of the brand, not the genetics but the brand, are only the name, it worked and it worked perfectly. And if you bred your own Blueberry strain and called it blueberry, that's great. Personally I'd think originality would be important to breeders, so I'd assume they wouldn't do all that work just to recreate someone else's strain, but if they did, and they insisted on calling it Blueberry, I'd only ask that it wasn't marketed as "Dj Short's" Blueberry, you know? I do realize no one owns the name Blueberry, but I also realize why it's being used in the industry so frequently across the board. It's because of both the stabilized genetics that exist within them and also the fact that it's perhaps the most recognizable brand around. So…although I understand no one own's the name, have some ingenuity and make your own brand.





Dj did not work with "Duchies" to create the Blueberry, he created it on his own without help from anyone in a 4x4 closet. He did some work with the 'duchies' and parted ways some time in the early 2000's. Ever since then the products coming from there are not his. As far as I know, this is public information….if not….BOOM, there ya go. And it shocks me to what degree people somehow believe Im obligated to discuss personal business matters like seed production or distribution. Give me a break.



As far as resorting to original landrace seeds to recreate the mothers, almost, but not quite. There are plenty of the earlier filial generations of the Blueberry parents to just pull them from. They can just be reselected form the f4's. I clarify this because giving the impression that the moms must be recreated form the landrace strains gives the impression that recreating those parent strains would somehow take a lot of work. Whereas the truth of the matter is someone just needs to toss out a few f3's or f4's and reselect the parents that way…much easier and faster than recreating from the landrace parents. Also much more consistently reliable.



"It's as if DJ invented the pit bull and then someone stole the dogs.... He's now rebreeding Wolves to try and find those boxy pit bull traits and remake the breed. Not a sure thing." <<<<and this is why I clarified with my last statement. No one is trying to breed pit-bulls with wolves. We have all the access to all the pedigree we want, everything from shah tzu to wolves. We got the pit-bulls, plenty of em. Also the wolves.



"I mean why do I have to have some magical curing method to make your strains taste good when EVERY OTHER SEED COMPANY I RUN tastes amazing right off the bat. A 90 day cure really doesn't change the flavor but a fraction." <<<Im sorry, I already answered this question, Im sorry if it offended you, or if you were too upset to understand the answer. But I gave you a very good answer. Think about it, some terpene's are much more sensitive than others and require much more coaxing to bring out. Also, those are going to be the unique terpene's no one is used to because they're the hardest to bring out. Remember, we're talking chemistry here.



"I guess just every grower I know who's had success with Many other seed companies but none With DJ shorts are just growing wrong?" <<<< Personally, I don't know too many breeders who have had the misfortune you appear to have had with the genetics. Maybe try spending less money and try growing fewer plants so you can pay closer attention to what you're doing. Again, this isn't your average hybrid genetics that you appear to be accustomed to running. |

First off.. The beans I bought directly from your dad were in mini ziplock bags with a scrap of paper with BB printed on it. Or AH or F13 or 12 or whatever.


Secondly why would your dad fill me full of smoke about some landraces?

What year did he create blueberry? The early 2000's you say?!?!?

Santa Cruz cut of blue dream has been around since 89 at least possibly 84 maybe even earlier.... Super silver haze x blueberry.... Or what you dad calls azure haze.

You can keep claiming its my fault that your dads beans didn't work out in my garden all you want but the people here at RIU know me well enough that they understand what I'm saying. For the most part up until about a year or so ago every seed I popped was documented heavily on here... I have pictures numbering in the tens of thousands chronicling 90% of the seeds I've grown..

Once again only your fathers beans, samsara, Dutch passion, and soma ever gave me such consistently stable piles of dung and hay. Most of all your dads tho I only ran a single packs of the other companies.

I'm sure the community totally agrees with you tho, I suck, I can't grow blueberry right but the vast majority of other seeds I run give me goodies left and right... Ya guys... You hear that?

How come when I ran the old timers cut of blue berry IN MY VERY FIRST GARDEN EVER I got some of the best purple blueberry pie buds I've ever had??

The old timers tell me his brother went to Amsterdam and came back with the blueberry seeds and I believe him, he's got nothing to prove to me.

Soooo... 2 + 2 = 9 ? Nope more like you might not have a full grasp on the situation at hand..

 

[Ace Yonder]

"I guess just every grower I know who's had success with Many other seed companies but none With DJ shorts are just growing wrong?" <<<< Personally, I don't know too many breeders who have had the misfortune you appear to have had with the genetics. Maybe try spending less money and try growing fewer plants so you can pay closer attention to what you're doing. Again, this isn't your average hybrid genetics that you appear to be accustomed to running. |

Not for nothing dude, but you gotta know that most people are going to sing your praises when they are talking to your face. Thats why all the breeders you KNOW have no issues with it, and then you go online and immediately find people willing to speak their mind about the downsides. I'm not saying you guys don't have good genetics, but to get so defensive as to discount the possibility that he grew it correctly and still didn't like it shows an unbelievable amount of hubris on your part.

 

[King Arthur]

I am telling you guys, he straight trolled everyone. You guys have amazing responses but I don't expect a substance injection from him. The problem is everyone else, not the fact that they pass out seeds that don't make winners.

 

[Jd Short]

The seeds you got from Dj were in mini zip-lock bags packaged within his packaging. The beans I saw in a shop were just in straight sand-which bags. My point being that yeah, there's plenty of knock-offs out there.



Who cares if you get the real thing or not. But how about make sure you're talking crap about the right thing before talking crap, otherwise you just look like someone talking shit. And you're basically bullying the wrong person. Realistically the biggest problem with this is that because of the unfound shit talking people are unfortunately being steered away from some of the best medicine and smoke they can get. Personally, I know this is exactly the intent of the shit talking. Im also not worried because as the topic of the thread addresses, DNA testing and things such as terpene finger printing will change all of this unfounded bull. And for what, so someone can feel a little better about only caring for their ego and pocket book? Anyway, I think we're all a little better than this, and I think the future generations to come deserve better than what we're attempting to leave them in our fury to appease our own desires and wishes. They deserve good smoke and good medicine. Dj's genetics are chalk full of both.



Im not sure what you think you heard Dj saying about 'resorting to original landrace seeds to try and find similar phenotypes to the original blueberry.' If by original landrace seeds you mean his f3 and f4 back-stock, this is correct. If you mean that he has had to recreate the Blueberry from scratch, from the P1 original landraces, you are absolutely incorrect.



And as far as you're magical Santa Cruz cut of blue dream you speak, congratulations!!!….you've just learned the hard way how much people are either full of shit or have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. The Blueberry wasn't finished until approximately 89. And wasn't stabilized until much later. Wasn't in europe before 94' So this magic cut of Blue dream you speak of isn't blue dream, it's just someone trying to market their strain to the utmost of their ability using someone else's brand and lying about the time frame. This is exactly how pirating works. How can we as a community be so familiar with how pirating music works and get so lost and confused when it comes to the plants we love?



"Not for nothing dude, but you gotta know that most people are going to sing your praises when they are talking to your face. Thats why all the breeders you KNOW have no issues with it, and then you go online and immediately find people willing to speak their mind about the downsides. I'm not saying you guys don't have good genetics, but to get so defensive as to discount the possibility that he grew it correctly and still didn't like it shows an unbelievable amount of hubris on your part." <<<<this I find extremely interesting. So, are you saying all those scores of people who've openly praised and loved the Blueberry are brainwashed? And are you saying that people aren't capable or are somehow to afraid to speak their minds. I find this preposterous.

 

[King Arthur]

I have daddy issues

Don't worry son, one day I may accept you again.

 

[st0wandgrow]

The seeds you got from Dj were in mini zip-lock bags packaged within his packaging. The beans I saw in a shop were just in straight sand-which bags. My point being that yeah, there's plenty of knock-offs out there.



Who cares if you get the real thing or not. But how about make sure you're talking crap about the right thing before talking crap, otherwise you just look like someone talking shit. And you're basically bullying the wrong person. Realistically the biggest problem with this is that because of the unfound shit talking people are unfortunately being steered away from some of the best medicine and smoke they can get. Personally, I know this is exactly the intent of the shit talking. Im also not worried because as the topic of the thread addresses, DNA testing and things such as terpene finger printing will change all of this unfounded bull. And for what, so someone can feel a little better about only caring for their ego and pocket book? Anyway, I think we're all a little better than this, and I think the future generations to come deserve better than what we're attempting to leave them in our fury to appease our own desires and wishes. They deserve good smoke and good medicine. Dj's genetics are chalk full of both.



Im not sure what you think you heard Dj saying about 'resorting to original landrace seeds to try and find similar phenotypes to the original blueberry.' If by original landrace seeds you mean his f3 and f4 back-stock, this is correct. If you mean that he has had to recreate the Blueberry from scratch, from the P1 original landraces, you are absolutely incorrect.



And as far as you're magical Santa Cruz cut of blue dream you speak, congratulations!!!….you've just learned the hard way how much people are either full of shit or have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. The Blueberry wasn't finished until approximately 89. And wasn't stabilized until much later. Wasn't in europe before 94' So this magic cut of Blue dream you speak of isn't blue dream, it's just someone trying to market their strain to the utmost of their ability using someone else's brand and lying about the time frame. This is exactly how pirating works. How can we as a community be so familiar with how pirating music works and get so lost and confused when it comes to the plants we love?



"Not for nothing dude, but you gotta know that most people are going to sing your praises when they are talking to your face. Thats why all the breeders you KNOW have no issues with it, and then you go online and immediately find people willing to speak their mind about the downsides. I'm not saying you guys don't have good genetics, but to get so defensive as to discount the possibility that he grew it correctly and still didn't like it shows an unbelievable amount of hubris on your part." <<<<this I find extremely interesting. So, are you saying all those scores of people who've openly praised and loved the Blueberry are brainwashed? And are you saying that people aren't capable or are somehow to afraid to speak their minds. I find this preposterous.

Is it possible that at one point in time your fathers genetics *were* among the best available, but now with literally hundreds of new breeders out there better genetics are being worked with and his stuff is kinda average in comparison?

I honestly don't see many glowing reviews of his strains anymore.

 

[King Arthur]

Is it possible that at one point in time your fathers genetics *were* among the best available, but now with literally hundreds of new breeders out there better genetics are being worked with and his stuff is kinda average in comparison?

I honestly don't see many glowing reviews of his strains anymore.

I haven't seen one good grow of DJ Shorts Blueberry, only stories from the past.

 

[Jd Short]

I can't keep repeating the same answers over and over again. This just got really boring to me...lol, don't mean to come off so condescending, but not exactly feeling like continuing this much loinger today. The sun is out by me and Im with a lovely girl....chat later, k guys.
Have fun on the internets....go look at your plants....you're neglecting em to bicker on the nets.....
Peace.

 

[Jd Short]

F5 Blueberry's.
Starved for food and finished in one gallon pots.
Pheno hunting.
Pictures taken yesterday, 2/11/15

 

[TonightYou]

JD, HGK is legit. he's a stand up guy who has grown a shit load of beans and knows his way around the garden. It was a pleasure meeting him and he's not some dude to blow smoke up anyone's ass. He's documented many plants, has a nice sized garden and isn't an agenda seeker.

On that note, you said you were impoverished and then act insulted when we bring up the business. Just because we are a bunch of stoners doesn't mean we don't hold degrees, run business and a seed business has its unique challenges but it isn't outside the gist of how things work. So please don't act like we are stupid.

You've been evasive with questions, we aren't asking for tax returns or anything. If anything we are trying to figure out why you seem to have dinosaur opinions on how things work. Perhaps you are jaded, but many of us are actually interested in engaging you and finding out more. You still didn't answer my question about Whittaker Blues. How is it? if I were to buy it, what would I expect?