Is secession a good thing?

[Rob Roy]

robroy is institutionalized.

You are in a mental cage of your own making, plus well ,well... WENDYS!!! I win again!!!

 

[londonfog]

Sure. Good question. A peaceful society is one which the initiation of force against another individual in a non-defensive way is not tolerated, even if you call yourself government.

Human relations are based in the idea that the individual has every right to determine his / her own path, but not the path of others. You are free to associate with anyone that wants to associate with you, you are not free to murder and call it collateral damage, steal and call it taxes or assault people over a plant because you have a badge, etc.

Economic freedom is a component of a peaceful society. No monopoly on what "money" is or can be will be held by a coercive authority.

In fact the only governments you could have in a peaceful society would all be voluntary. Logic insists that is so. IF you are involuntarily encompassed in anything, a government or a wendys bathroom, somebody has broken the peace...hence if the base of an involuntary government is force, by definition it cannot at the same time be peaceful.

To contrast, an orderly society is one that has some outward aspects of peace, but it is not spontaneous if it is held in place thru fear or threats. Saadam Hussein was boss of a fairly orderly society, but it wasn't peaceful as the gun was always in the room.

In fact what all coercive governments sell to their serfs as "peace" is in actuality order. The color of the flag is irrelevant, they all do it.

how do you maintain your rules ? Seems like I can do what ever I want. Can I walk around naked ? Piss and shit outside ? Do I have to place my garbage in containers or just toss it where ever I like? How is chaos prevented from happening ?

 

[desert dude]

The US was borne in a secession.

 

[NoDrama]

how do you maintain your rules ? Seems like I can do what ever I want. Can I walk around naked ? Piss and shit outside ? Do I have to place my garbage in containers or just toss it where ever I like? How is chaos prevented from happening ?

Why do you keep creating strawmen?

 

[londonfog]

Why do you keep creating strawmen?

straw-man ??? In order to maintain a peaceful society you would have to have some rules, which of course are enforced. No straw-man. Just proved my point. Some rules you will like others not so much. The best we can do is have the people vote on the rules. We still would have to have someone or somebody enforce these rules.

 

[Rob Roy]

how do you maintain your rules ? Seems like I can do what ever I want. Can I walk around naked ? Piss and shit outside ? Do I have to place my garbage in containers or just toss it where ever I like? How is chaos prevented from happening ?

People might shun you if you walked around naked on their property, but none of my friends would care much if you walked around naked on your own property.

If it's your garbage, you are responsible to take care of it. I don't generate much and compost what many people throw away.

It would only be chaotic if you shit on somebody else floor, that would be frowned on mightily.


Chaos? Ahhh yes chaos, that's the scary one that the coercive types use to keep you in your pen chewing your cud.
You seem to suffer under the illusion that within a society where there is no central authority that there cannot be BOTH peace AND order.

The existence of a coercive central authority, I've already proven negates the chances of a peaceful society. If you don't agree with that present your premise and defend it. When you do I'll tell you about the rest of your fallacies.

 

[londonfog]

People might shun you if you walked around naked on their property, but none of my friends would care much if you walked around naked on your own property.

.

Let us take this one rule at a time. I can walk around my property naked but not yours. Ok who will stop me ? Will force be used ? What if I walked around on neither one of our properties, but out in public ? Wait do we have a public ?

 

[Rob Roy]

straw-man ??? In order to maintain a peaceful society you would have to have some rules, which of course are enforced. No straw-man. Just proved my point. Some rules you will like others not so much. The best we can do is have the people vote on the rules. We still would have to have someone or somebody enforce these rules.

Rules are good when they are not arbitrary and those involved have the opportunity to opt out or opt in on a voluntary basis. Of course people should keep those agreements they entered into voluntarily.

Your societies coercive types don't permit voluntary interactions very well and will use force to ensure the status quo.


The best we can do you say?
No the best we can do is to leave other people alone.

Voting in your society is the act of consolidating a consensus to approve of the use of force to get what you want. Voting in a voluntarily opted in society can be accomplished though, but that answer would likely go over your head and that blonde wig you are wearing.

The first and most important rule is you will not run others lives for them. Your society violates that on a regular basis.

 

[Rob Roy]

Let us take this one rule at a time. I can walk around my property naked but not yours. Ok who will stop me ? Will force be used ? What if I walked around on neither one of our properties, but out in public ? Wait do we have a public ?

If a person owns property and prefers you don't do things to their property, why would you violate their right to determine the use of their property is the question that also reveals the answer.

Initiated force would be frowned on, defensive force not so much. So you can do what you want on your property, because you own it.
You can't do what you want with others property, because they own it. Same thing with your physical body.

It's called minding your own business...novel concept huh?

Dude, if you want to walk around naked, just come out and say it. You're not the bad man are you?

 

[Rob Roy]

you fail to realize what we the people mean

That's a nice phrase but completely meaningless unless the people have all individually consented to a given thing.

I could throw down a Lysander Spooner magic trump card, but it might wake up Bucky and he needs his beauty rest.

 

[londonfog]

If a person owns property and prefers you don't do things to their property, why would you violate their right to determine the use of their property is the question that also reveals the answer.

Initiated force would be frowned on, defensive force not so much. So you can do what you want on your property, because you own it.
You can't do what you want with others property, because they own it. Same thing with your physical body.

It's called minding your own business...novel concept huh?

Dude, if you want to walk around naked, just come out and say it. You're not the bad man are you?

Trying to get an understanding here.
Lots of people would like to walk around naked. Question is would you want people in your family being forced to see other walk around in the nude ? No one owns the beach, so what if others just walk around nude on the beach. Some would not like that, mostly ones with kids. What rules would apply in public areas ? So we would be forced to see naked people when we go out ? I mean it is their bodies.

 

[londonfog]

That's a nice phrase but completely meaningless unless the people have all individually consented to a given thing.

I could throw down a Lysander Spooner magic trump card, but it might wake up Bucky and he needs his beauty rest.

UB seems to stay on your mind.

 

[Rob Roy]

Well he could have the title as " Is rape a good thing"

Actually, the idea behind the thread is in a given geographic area can several systems co-exist ? Of course they can and already have in many instances. Is there only one chain of grocery stores? No, you can go to chain A and others can go to chain B or C etc.

One religion ? No. One insurance provider? No.. but the coercive monopoly is working on that one

One pot grower? No.

A free market allows possibility of improvement, a coercive monopoly not so much.

So, the idea of Panarchy is frowned on by those that benefit from the coercive monopoly presently existing, the monopoly that divides the plantations up by physical territory, rather than by voluntary membership.

You didn't read the initial post in this thread either did you? Also, because you really never understand what I'm saying you have a hard time refuting it but it provides me much entertainment. Thank you....hey why the fuck are you in my yard all naked!!???

 

[Rob Roy]

Trying to get an understanding here.
Lots of people would like to walk around naked. Question is would you want people in your family being forced to see other walk around in the nude ? No one owns the beach, so what if others just walk around nude on the beach. Some would not like that, mostly ones with kids. What rules would apply in public areas ? So we would be forced to see naked people when we go out ? I mean it is their bodies.

On a personal note I'm in great shape for a silverback my age so I'm probably not as ashamed of my body as a middle aged guy that sits around eating the M&M's he's supposed to use to fill the vending machines at his laundromat, but I'm digressing.

If people want to walk around naked, how does that harm you? What if I'm offended by people in uniforms and badges and stupid haircuts? Or people that have toilet paper stuck to the bottom of their shoe, looking for their next floor to victimize?

You have also identified a problem inherent to so called "public property. If it's public property then ownership is undefined. If ownership is undefined, who has the right to tell others what they can and cannot do on said property? You have made a great argument for property ownership and exposed the tragedy of the commons....but you didn't even know that.

 

[Rob Roy]

UB seems to stay on your mind.

No, I just let the dog out to do his business and Uncle Buck came to mind.

 

[londonfog]

On a personal note I'm in great shape for a silverback my age so I'm probably not as ashamed of my body as a middle aged guy that sits around eating the M&M's he's supposed to use to fill the vending machines at his laundromat, but I'm digressing.

If people want to walk around naked, how does that harm you? What if I'm offended by people in uniforms and badges and stupid haircuts? Or people that have toilet paper stuck to the bottom of their shoe, looking for their next floor to victimize?

You have also identified a problem inherent to so called "public property. If it's public property then ownership is undefined. If ownership is undefined, who has the right to tell others what they can and cannot do on said property? You have made a great argument for property ownership and exposed the tragedy of the commons....but you didn't even know that.

you don't think a child seeing a grown person naked can be harmful ?

 

[AlecTheGardener]

you don't think a child seeing a grown person naked can be harmful ?

Maybe a gasp if they aren't used to it. Meh, nakedness is the last thing that can hurt a kid I think.

Anything past just being naked in the vicinity begs other questions.

 

[Rob Roy]

you don't think a child seeing a grown person naked can be harmful ?

Not nearly as harmful as seeing their parents shot in front of them by coercive government types or watching their parents get beat up and have their garden destroyed by coercive government types or seeing their parents powerless to stop any of the other multitude of things I could have filled this page with as further examples of the harm your system causes.

As far as being naked goes, many people abide by culturally accepted standards, some make sense and others are just repetitions of "this is the way we've always done it".


My advice to you, lay off the M&M's, hit the gym and then you won't be so ashamed of your spare tire.

How does seeing a naked person harm you or a child, please explain that to me?

 

[londonfog]

Maybe a gasp if they aren't used to it. Meh, nakedness is the last thing that can hurt a kid I think.

Anything past just being naked in the vicinity begs other questions.

so you wouldn't have a problem with your 6 year old daughter seeing the penis of a grown man ? I personally would. I'm glad we have rules to put your damn clothes on in public. I'm trying to get an understanding of Rob Roy peaceful world of no force

 

[londonfog]

Not nearly as harmful as seeing their parents shot in front of them by coercive government types or watching their parents get beat up and have their garden destroyed by coercive government types or seeing their parents powerless to stop any of the other multitude of things I could have filled this page with as further examples of the harm your system causes.

As far as being naked goes, many people abide by culturally accepted standards, some make sense and others are just repetitions of "this is the way we've always done it".


My advice to you, lay off the M&M's, hit the gym and then you won't be so ashamed of your spare tire.

How does seeing a naked person harm you or a child, please explain that to me?

ok see we have established that you see nothing wrong with a child seeing grown people naked. What if two grown people making out naked on the public beach. No harm to the child either ?