ChesusRice
Well-Known Member
What do you think that village would look like if they had roads and electricity?
Official Lolbertarian thread. Discuss the benefits of No goverment
- Thread starter ChesusRice
- Start date
abandonconflict
Well-Known Member
It's capitalism. Everything is privately owned.
Rob Roy
Well-Known Member
It would certainly be none of YOUR business, if neither party had anything to do with you. Nor would it be ANYBODY else business, if it had nothing to do with them.
If you disagree and hold a prohibitionist mindset, tell me how it can be YOUR business if your property and your ability to control your own body has not been taken away.
Rob Roy
Well-Known Member
Do you turn in people for growing weed illegally too ?
Rob Roy
Well-Known Member
Did the judge believe you?
Rob Roy
Well-Known Member
Could you describe the difference between "capitalism" and a truly free market ? I'm interested in how you think they differ.
Rob Roy
Well-Known Member
I know you have difficulty reading just a few paragraphs, so it's not likely you'll read, comprehend or bother to refute any points in this excerpt from the Market for Liberty....
Chapter 7.
Arbitration of Disputes
Whenever men have dealings with one another, there is always a chance for disagreements and disputes to arise. Even when there has been no initiation of force, two persons can disagree over such matters as the terms and fulfillment of a contract or the true title to a piece of property. Whether one party to the dispute is trying to cheat the other(s) or whether both (or all) are completely honest and sincere in their contentions, the dispute may reach a point where it can’t be settled without binding arbitration by a disinterested arbiter. If no mechanism for such arbitration existed within a society, disputes could only be resolved by violence in every situation in which at least one person abandoned reason—man’s only satisfactory means of communication. Then, that society would disintegrate into strife, suspicion, and social and economic breakdown, as human relationships became too dangerous to tolerate on any but the most limited scale.
Advocates of “limited government” contend that government is necessary to maintain social order because disputes could never be satisfactorily settled without a single, final court of appeal for everyone and without the force of legal rules to compel disputants to submit to that court and to abide by its decision(s). They also seem to feel that government officials and judges are somehow more impartial than other men because they are set apart from ordinary market relations and, therefore, have no vested interests to interfere with their judgments.
It is interesting to note that the advocates of government see initiated force (the legal force of government) as the only solution to social disputes. According to them, if everyone in society were not forced to use the same court system, and particularly the same final court of appeal, disputes would be insoluble. Apparently it doesn’t occur to them that disputing parties are capable of freely choosing their own arbiters, including the final arbiter, and that this final arbiter wouldn’t need to be the same agency for all disputes which occur in the society. They have not realized that disputants would, in fact, be far better off if they could choose among competing arbitration agencies so that they could reap the benefits of competition and specialization. It should be obvious that a court system which has a monopoly guaranteed by the force of statutory law will not give as good quality service as will free-market arbitration agencies which must compete for their customers. Also, a multiplicity of agencies facilitates specialization, so that people with a dispute in some specialized field can hire arbitration by experts in that field . . . instead of being compelled to submit to the judgment of men who have little or no background in the matter.
But, the government advocates argue, there must be an agency of legal force to compel disputants (particularly those who are negligent or dishonest) to submit to arbitration and abide by the decision of the arbiter, or the whole arbitration process would be futile. It is true that the whole process would be meaningless if one or both disputants could avoid arbitration or ignore the decision of the arbiter. But it doesn’t follow that an institution of initiated force is necessary to compel the disputants to treat the arbitration as binding. The principle of rational self-interest, on which the whole free-market system is built, would accomplish this end quite effectively. Men who contract to abide by the decision of a neutral arbiter and then break that contract are obviously unreliable and too risky to do business with. Honest men, acting in their rational self-interest, would check the records of those they did business with and would avoid having any dealings with such individuals. This kind of informal business boycott would be extremely effective in a governmentless society where a man could acquire nothing except what he could produce himself or get in trade with others.
Even in cases where the pressure of business ostracism was insufficient to insure compliance with arbiters’ decisions, it doesn’t follow that government would be necessary to bring the contract-breaker to justice. As will be shown in Chapters 9 and 10, free men, acting in a free market, are quite capable of dealing justly with those few who harm their fellowmen by any form of coercion, including contract-breaking. It’s hardly necessary to institutionalize aggressive violence in order to deal with aggressive violence!
It would be more economical and in most cases quite sufficient to have only one arbitration agency to hear the case. But if the parties felt that a further appeal might be necessary and were willing to risk the extra expense, they could provide for a succession of two or or even more arbitration agencies. The names of these agencies would be written into the contract, in order from the “first court of appeal” to the “last court of appeal.” It would be neither necessary nor desirable to have one single, final court of appeal for every person in the society, as we have today in the United States Supreme Court. Such forced uniformity always promotes injustice. Since the arbitration agencies for any particular contract would be designated in that contract, every contracting party would choose his own arbitration agency or agencies (including the one to whom final appeal was to be made if more than one was wanted). Those who needed arbitration would thus be able to reap the benefits of specialization and competition among the various arbitration agencies. And, since companies must compete on the basis of lower prices and/or better service, competition among arbitration agencies would lead to scrupulously honest decisions reached at the greatest speed and lowest cost which were feasible (quite a contrast to the traditional governmental court system, where justice is often a matter of clever lawyers and lucky accident).
Arbitration agencies would employ professional arbiters, instead of using citizen-jurors as governmental courts do. A board of professional arbiters would have great advantages over the present citizen-jury system of “ignorance times twelve.” Professional arbiters would be highly trained specialists who made a career of hearing disputes and settling them justly. They would be educated for their profession as rigorously as engineers or doctors, probably taking their basic training in such fields as logic, ethics, and psychology, and further specialization in any field likely to come under dispute. While professional arbiters would still make errors, they would make far fewer than do the amateur jurors and political judges of today. Not only would professional arbiters be far better qualified to hear, analyze, and evaluate evidence for the purpose of coming to an objective judgment than are our present citizen-jurors, they would also be much more difficult to bribe. A professional arbiter who tried to “throw” a case would be easily detected by his trained and experienced colleagues, and few men would be so foolish as to jeopardize a remunerative and highly respected career, even for a very large sum of money.
Justice, after all, is an economic good, just as are education and medical care. The ability to dispense justice depends on knowledge and on skill in assessing people and situations. This knowledge and skill must be acquired, just as medical knowledge must be acquired before medical advice can be dispensed. Some people are willing to expend the effort to get this knowledge and skill so that they can sell their services as professional arbiters. Other people need their services and are willing to buy them. Justice, like any other good or service, has economic value.
Rob Roy
Well-Known Member
@Glaucoma
The rest of the excerpt you will not read, comprehend or rebut......(couldn't post it all in one post due to length....enjoy)
Perhaps the least tenable argument for government arbitration of disputes is the one which holds that governmental judges are more impartial because they operate outside the market and so have no vested interests. In the first place, it’s impossible for anyone except a self-sufficient hermit to operate completely outside the market. The market is simply a system of trade, and even Federal judges trade with other men in order to improve their standard of living (if they didn’t, we would have to pay them in consumable goods instead of money). In the second place, owing political allegiance to government is certainly no guarantee of impartiality! A governmental judge is always impelled to be partial . . . in favor of the government, from whom he gets his pay and his power! On the other hand, an arbiter who sells his services in a free market knows that he must be as scrupulously honest, fair, and impartial as possible or no pair of disputants will buy his services to arbitrate their dispute. A free-market arbiter depends for his livelihood on his skill and fairness at settling disputes. A governmental judge depends on political pull.
The rest of the excerpt you will not read, comprehend or rebut......(couldn't post it all in one post due to length....enjoy)
Perhaps the least tenable argument for government arbitration of disputes is the one which holds that governmental judges are more impartial because they operate outside the market and so have no vested interests. In the first place, it’s impossible for anyone except a self-sufficient hermit to operate completely outside the market. The market is simply a system of trade, and even Federal judges trade with other men in order to improve their standard of living (if they didn’t, we would have to pay them in consumable goods instead of money). In the second place, owing political allegiance to government is certainly no guarantee of impartiality! A governmental judge is always impelled to be partial . . . in favor of the government, from whom he gets his pay and his power! On the other hand, an arbiter who sells his services in a free market knows that he must be as scrupulously honest, fair, and impartial as possible or no pair of disputants will buy his services to arbitrate their dispute. A free-market arbiter depends for his livelihood on his skill and fairness at settling disputes. A governmental judge depends on political pull.
Rob Roy
Well-Known Member
here's more @ Glaucoma
Excluding cases of initiated force and fraud (which will be dealt with in later chapters), there are two main categories of disputes between men—disputes which arise out of a contractual situation between the disputing parties (as disagreements over the meaning and application of the contract, or allegations of willful or negligent breach of contract) and disputes in which there was no contractual relationship between the disputants. Because of the importance of contractual relationships in a laissez-faire society, this type of dispute will be discussed first.
A free society, and particularly an industrialized one, is a contractual society. Contracts are such a basic part of all business dealings that even the smallest business would soon collapse if the integrity of its contracts were not protected. (Not only million dollar deals between industrial giants, but your job, the apartment you lease, and the car you buy on time represent contractual situations.) This creates a large market for the service of contract-protection, a market which is at present pre-empted by government. In a laissez-faire society, this market would be best served by professional arbitration agencies in conjunction with insurance companies.
In a free-market society, individuals or firms which had a contractual dispute which they found themselves unable to resolve would find it in their interest to take their problem before an arbitration agency for binding arbitration. In order to eliminate possible disputes over which arbitration agency to patronize, the contracting parties would usually designate an agency at the time the contract was written. This agency would judge in any dispute between them, and they would bind themselves contractually to abide by its decisions. If the disputing parties had lacked the foresight to choose an arbitration agency at the time their original contract was made, they would still be able to hire one when the dispute arose, provided they could agree on which agency to patronize. Obviously, any arbitration agency would insist that all parties involved consent to its arbitration so that none of them would have a basis for bringing any action against it later if dissatisfied with its decision(s).
For a New Liberty: The Libertarian Manifesto.
When a contract is willfully or carelessly broken, the principle of justice involved is that the party who broke the contract owes all other contracted parties reparations in the amount of whatever his breach of contract has cost them (such amount to be determined by the arbitration agency previously specified by the parties to the contract) plus the cost of the arbitration proceedings.
If the arbiters of the final arbitration agency to whom appeal was made decided that the factory owner had, in fact, breached his contract with the inventor, they would set the reparations payment as close as humanly possible to the amount which the facts warranted—i.e., they would attempt to be as objective as possible. If the manufacturer were either unable or unwilling to make the payment, or to make it immediately, the insurance company would indemnify the inventor for the amount in question (within the terms of the policy). With the inventor paid according to the terms of the insurance policy, the insurance company would then have the right of subrogation—that is, the insurance company would have the right to collect the reparations in the inventor’s place and the manufacturer would now owe the insurance company rather than the inventor (except for any valid claim for damages the inventor might have for an amount in excess of what the insurance company had paid him).
Rob Roy
Well-Known Member
@Glaucoma
and the last of it....I eagerly await your thoughtful rebuttal...
If the inventor didn’t have insurance on his contract with the manufacturer, he would take much the same steps as those described above, with two exceptions. First, he, himself, would have to make all arrangements for a hearing before the arbitration agency and for the collection of the debt, and he would have to stand the cost of these services until the manufacturer paid him back. Second, he would not be immediately indemnified for his loss but would have to wait until the manufacturer could pay him, which might be a matter of months or even years if, for example, the manufacturer had gone broke because of his shady dealings and had to make payment on an instalment basis.
Because those who were guilty of breaches of contract would pay the major costs occasioned by their negligent or improper behavior, the insurance companies would not have to absorb large losses on contract insurance claims, as they do on fire or accident claims. With only minimal losses to spread among their policyholders, insurance companies could afford to charge very low premiums for contract insurance. Low cost, plus the great convenience afforded by contract insurance, would make such insurance standard for almost all important contracts.
Before examining what steps an insurance company (or the original offended party if the contract were uninsured) could morally and practically take in the collection of a debt, it is necessary to examine the concept of “debt” itself. A debt is a value owed by one individual to another individual, with consequent obligation to make payment. A condition of debt arises when:
1—an individual comes into possession of a value which rightfully belongs to another individual, either by voluntary agreement, as in a purchase made on credit, or by theft or fraud;
2—an individual destroys a value which rightfully belongs to another individual.
A debt is the result of an action willingly or negligently taken by the debtor. That is, even though he may not have purposed to assume a debt, he has willingly taken some action or failed to take some action which he should have taken (as in the case of what is now termed “criminal negligence”) which has directly resulted in the loss of some value belonging to another individual. A debt does not arise from an unforeseeable or unpreventable circumstance, such as an accident or natural disaster. (In such cases, insurance companies would act just as they do now, indemnifying the insured and spreading the loss among all their policyholders.)
Chapters 9 and 10).
In the matter of arbitration, as in any other salable service, the free-market system of voluntary choice will always be superior to government’s enforcement of standardized and arbitrary rules. When consumers are free to choose, they will naturally choose the companies which they believe will give them the best service and/or the lowest prices. The profit and loss signals which consumer-buying practices send businesses guide these businesses into providing the goods and services which satisfy customers most. Profit/loss is the “error signal” which guides businessmen in their decisions. It is a continuous signal and, with the accurate and sophisticated methods of modern accounting, a very sensitive one.
But government is an extra-market institution—its purpose is not to make profits but to gain power and exercise it. Government officials have no profit and loss data. Even if they wanted to satisfy their forced “customers,” they have no reliable “error signal” to guide their decisions. Aside from sporadic mail from the small minority of his constituents who are politically conscious, the only “error signal” a politician gets is the outcome of his re-election bids. One small bit of data every two to six years! And even this tidbit is hardly a clear signal, since individual voters may have voted the way they did because of any one of a number of issues, or even because they liked the candidate’s sexy appearance or fatherly image. Appointed bureaucrats and judges, of course, don’t even get this one small and usually confusing data signal; they have to operate completely in the dark.
This means that even the best intentioned government officials can’t possibly match the free market in generating consumer satisfaction in any area. Government doesn’t have, and by its nature can’t have, the only signal system—profit and loss—which can accurately tell an organization whether it is giving consumers what they want. Because he lacks the profit/loss signal, no government official—including a government judge—can tell whether he’s pleasing the “customers” by preserving or increasing their values, or whether he’s harming them by destroying their values.
The best conceivable government, staffed by the most conscientious politicians, couldn’t possibly handle the job of arbitrating disputes (or any other task) as can private enterprise acting in a free market.
and the last of it....I eagerly await your thoughtful rebuttal...
If the inventor didn’t have insurance on his contract with the manufacturer, he would take much the same steps as those described above, with two exceptions. First, he, himself, would have to make all arrangements for a hearing before the arbitration agency and for the collection of the debt, and he would have to stand the cost of these services until the manufacturer paid him back. Second, he would not be immediately indemnified for his loss but would have to wait until the manufacturer could pay him, which might be a matter of months or even years if, for example, the manufacturer had gone broke because of his shady dealings and had to make payment on an instalment basis.
Because those who were guilty of breaches of contract would pay the major costs occasioned by their negligent or improper behavior, the insurance companies would not have to absorb large losses on contract insurance claims, as they do on fire or accident claims. With only minimal losses to spread among their policyholders, insurance companies could afford to charge very low premiums for contract insurance. Low cost, plus the great convenience afforded by contract insurance, would make such insurance standard for almost all important contracts.
Before examining what steps an insurance company (or the original offended party if the contract were uninsured) could morally and practically take in the collection of a debt, it is necessary to examine the concept of “debt” itself. A debt is a value owed by one individual to another individual, with consequent obligation to make payment. A condition of debt arises when:
1—an individual comes into possession of a value which rightfully belongs to another individual, either by voluntary agreement, as in a purchase made on credit, or by theft or fraud;
2—an individual destroys a value which rightfully belongs to another individual.
A debt is the result of an action willingly or negligently taken by the debtor. That is, even though he may not have purposed to assume a debt, he has willingly taken some action or failed to take some action which he should have taken (as in the case of what is now termed “criminal negligence”) which has directly resulted in the loss of some value belonging to another individual. A debt does not arise from an unforeseeable or unpreventable circumstance, such as an accident or natural disaster. (In such cases, insurance companies would act just as they do now, indemnifying the insured and spreading the loss among all their policyholders.)
Chapters 9 and 10).
In the matter of arbitration, as in any other salable service, the free-market system of voluntary choice will always be superior to government’s enforcement of standardized and arbitrary rules. When consumers are free to choose, they will naturally choose the companies which they believe will give them the best service and/or the lowest prices. The profit and loss signals which consumer-buying practices send businesses guide these businesses into providing the goods and services which satisfy customers most. Profit/loss is the “error signal” which guides businessmen in their decisions. It is a continuous signal and, with the accurate and sophisticated methods of modern accounting, a very sensitive one.
But government is an extra-market institution—its purpose is not to make profits but to gain power and exercise it. Government officials have no profit and loss data. Even if they wanted to satisfy their forced “customers,” they have no reliable “error signal” to guide their decisions. Aside from sporadic mail from the small minority of his constituents who are politically conscious, the only “error signal” a politician gets is the outcome of his re-election bids. One small bit of data every two to six years! And even this tidbit is hardly a clear signal, since individual voters may have voted the way they did because of any one of a number of issues, or even because they liked the candidate’s sexy appearance or fatherly image. Appointed bureaucrats and judges, of course, don’t even get this one small and usually confusing data signal; they have to operate completely in the dark.
This means that even the best intentioned government officials can’t possibly match the free market in generating consumer satisfaction in any area. Government doesn’t have, and by its nature can’t have, the only signal system—profit and loss—which can accurately tell an organization whether it is giving consumers what they want. Because he lacks the profit/loss signal, no government official—including a government judge—can tell whether he’s pleasing the “customers” by preserving or increasing their values, or whether he’s harming them by destroying their values.
The best conceivable government, staffed by the most conscientious politicians, couldn’t possibly handle the job of arbitrating disputes (or any other task) as can private enterprise acting in a free market.
Rob Roy
Well-Known Member
So when you are scuba diving on that poor shmucks dime do you ever bump fists with that fat capitalist pig on top of the guy on the bicycle or are you exempt from being a parasite ?
How much do you like to read? Could you make it through a book less than 200 pages which would answer your good question?
woody333333
Well-Known Member
It shouldn't take two hundred pages to answer a simple question
I do like to read but I'm sick of reading your child molester shit
ChesusRice
Well-Known Member
Rob Roy has exceeded the goal of this thread by showing what a pathetic piece of worthless shit he really is
Further reinforcing the imaginary rights of a pedophile to sodomize children.
Further reinforcing the imaginary rights of a pedophile to sodomize children.
Rob Roy
Well-Known Member
I think you have erroneously assigned something to me, that's kind of not cool. Have a good day.
ChesusRice
Well-Known Member
Rob Roy
Well-Known Member
I'm wondering if you can offer an example of what you believe consent is and when people gain the wherewithal to exercise it.
Is that a universal age for everybody ?
I'm also wondering if a person has the ability to consent, why you think it is any of your business to become involved in their life?
For the record I can discuss things that other people might do, while not endorsing the things they might do and can differentiate between discussing an action and endorsing an action. You seem either a little slow on the uptake there or are being intentional in flinging false allegations around like a caged monkey flings dung.
Either way, you've put alot of energy into fucking with me Prohibitionist, what do you hope to gain by it?
Is your life on the prohibitionist Wisconsin Plantation with your bratty tattle tale daughter so miserable you have to be a lying dick or have you just chosen to be one because of latent feelings of inadequacy centered around your miniscule and scrawny physique featuring a micro penis and a pea brain?
Rob Roy
Well-Known Member
No I would propose that coercion not be the cornerstone or foundation of political systems. You can't deny that is what exists presently.
The reason I say that should be obvious. If you and I have no right to determine how the other peaceful person lives using force or the threat of it....then NOBODY or no GROUP OF PEOPLE has that right. You turn a blind eye to governments violating that concept, I do not.
woody333333
Well-Known Member
Rob Roy
Well-Known Member
Nice argument. So insightful.
I think you might be full of internet muscles too, I think I'll crawl under my bed and lay trembling for awhile. Have a good day.
woody333333
Well-Known Member
Sounds like something one of your victims would do