2014 was definitely the hottest year on record

OddBall1st

Well-Known Member
Lets start with your mistaken version of the earth. Can you trust photographs from NASA? If you take a look at the photos taken from space of the earth, you'll see that your cartoon concept is completely wrong.

Earth and the Moon Together (NASA, Moon, 6/16/09) by NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center

Note: Half the earth is illuminated. Everything driving the earth's temperature derives from the sunlight intercepted as shown in this image. Please note that energy density from the sun is the same regardless if the sunlight strikes water or solid earth. Also, the energy density is the same whether the earth has a tilt or not. You can turn that ball however you like in the sunlight and the energy density is always the same.


The earth's temperature is distributed according to the angle at which the sunlight strikes the earth, as shown below. This is where the tilt comes into play. As the earth wobbles, some areas see a broader or narrower spread of radiation depending on the angle presented to sunlight. The total amount of radiation striking the earth and its atmosphere is the same but energy distribution changes towards the poles.






Half the earth is illuminated by the sun but the other half is not. Only the side facing sunlight is heated. The entire earth emits thermal radiation.



In practice, the earth heats and cools according to where sunlight is absorbed:


Given these variables, surface temperature varies greatly depending on location, time of day, day of year and weather patterns. Climate science is the study of how these variables affect weather and weather patterns across the planet. One metric used to assess global climate change is the earth's average surface temperature, which is the grand average of the average water temperature of the first few meters below the ocean's surface and the temperature found between the earth's land surface and 1.5 meters above.

Now, moving on to your strange idea of the shape of the earth. This is what you said the earth looks like:




This is what the earth looks like from space. Note that the earth is shaped more like a globe than an egg:

NASA Blue Marble 2007 East by NASA Goddard Space Flight Center




Although the image shows the earth is very much round-shaped in appearance, there is a small flattening of the earth through its axis of rotation. The earth has a very small broadening at the equator and minor flattening through the poles. The aspect ratio is about 1.003-to-1 and nothing like your drawing, either in magnitude or orientation.


Summary:
!) The earth is not egg shaped and oriented like you say.
2) Surface temperature is colder at the poles and warmer at the equator because sunlight strikes the earth at broad angles at the poles and sunlight strikes the earth directly (90 degree angle) at the equator.
3) Tilt and wobble cause the earth's surface to shift about relative to the sunlight but the total amount of sunlight remains constant.
4) The sunlight energy density striking the earth is independent from whatever it strikes, be it cloud, air, water or rock.
5) The average earth surface temperature is the grand average of the average water temperature of the first few meters below the ocean's surface and the average temperature found between the earth's land surface and 1.5 meters above.

These are facts and not theory. Do you agree that these are facts?

No, let`s start with I clearly wrote exaggerated for viewing, was gonna write eggsaggerated for you, but I scribbled it, Not with what you said.

Half the Earth is illuminated is all you got correct. (where`s the global warming ?)

To say everything driving the Earths temperature is soley from sunlight intercepted is not complete. You need to mention exposer times and currents. Land holds heat better than water so air above land is warmer with equal sunlight as water. At night, the more heat over land rises quicker than air over the less heated water. (sea breeze) There`s a lot of water. Then there are places that get no sunlight at all for two or more months. This is all because of the axis.

The Earths temperature is distributed according to the angle at which sunlight strikes the Earth as shown below,.... is misleading. It should read that sunlight is distributed according to the angle at which it strikes the Earth.

In practice, the Earth heats and cools according to rate of loss and gain and movements, not that is just absorbed.

look a summary.....ellipses.

1) The earth is not as exaggerated as my cartoon labeled exaggerated is.
2) I completely disagree. I say it`s because of astronomical night for almost three months each year. (exposer time) Directly related to axis. That cold air for three months moves,...(polar vortexes) Trying to get an average planet temperature and relating that to current and rate changes to climate again is not complete. Zoning is the way to go, not a global average.
3) Total amount of sunlight is not equally distributed between land and water, but incoming constant.
4) If it were not independent, it could not strike anything.
5) The first few meters of the Bearing Sea are not the same as the first few meters of the Red Sea, I see no possible way to average out water temperature with currents a few meters under in locations that never come remotely close in temperatures as others but do blend together. Blend, pay attention to that word.

How`d I do ?
 
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Fogdog

Well-Known Member
No, let`s start with I clearly wrote exaggerated for viewing, was gonna write eggsaggerated for you, but I scribbled it, Not with what you said.

Half the Earth is illuminated is all you got correct. (where`s the global warming ?)

To say everything driving the Earths temperature is soley from sunlight intercepted is not complete. You need to mention exposer times and currents. Land holds heat better than water so air above land is warmer with equal sunlight as water. At night, the more heat over land rises quicker than air over the less heated water. (sea breeze) There`s a lot of water. Then there are places that get no sunlight at all for two or more months. This is all because of the axis.

The Earths temperature is distributed according to the angle at which sunlight strikes the Earth as shown below,.... is misleading. It should read that sunlight is distributed according to the angle at which it strikes the Earth.

In practice, the Earth heats and cools according to rate of loss and gain and movements, not that is just absorbed.

look a summary.....ellipses.

1) The earth is not as exaggerated as my cartoon labeled exaggerated is.
2) I completely disagree. I say it`s because of astronomical night for almost three months each year. (exposer time) Directly related to axis. That cold air for three months moves,...(polar vortexes) Trying to get an average planet temperature and relating that to current and rate changes to climate again is not complete. Zoning is the way to go, not a global average.
3) Total amount of sunlight is not equally distributed between land and water, but incoming constant.
4) If it were not independent, it could not strike anything.
5) The first few meters of the Bearing Sea are not the same as the first few meters of the Red Sea, I see no possible way to average out water temperature with currents a few meters under in locations that never come remotely close in temperatures as others but do blend together. Blend, pay attention to that word.

How`d I do ?
Complete fail. Not having a conversation with the ignorant and unwilling to learn. You have an interesting personality but science is nothing you can handle. Fini
 
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ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Complete fail. Not having a conversation with the ignorant and unwilling to learn. You have an interesting personality but science is nothing you can handle. Fini
February is the month winter disappeared here in Colorado. We got a spring snow, all 18" it was gone in a few days and it's been sunny and sixties pretty much ever since.

If this keeps up I'm expecting a record hot summer and a massive meltdown of any ops that don't have their HVAC nailed down.
 

OddBall1st

Well-Known Member
Complete fail. Not having a conversation with the ignorant and unwilling to learn. You have an interesting personality but science is nothing you can handle. Fini

No wonder there is an issue with scientists, they get to say .."you`re wrong,...not talking to you anymore,...nice ass", then run out.
Dealing with GW scientists is difficult when you must show your proofs and wrongs but they don`t have to.

I`ll label you dog as a google`n phony, wounded and escaping. I`ll do that on the grounds that you use google, I don`t and you do not understand what you present,....I do.

fini shed.
 

OddBall1st

Well-Known Member
The entire Earth emits thermal radiation. While true, is not complete. You and I emit thermal radiation, but more so out of your head than feet. That`s why grandma tells you to wear your hat and wool socks.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
No, let`s start with I clearly wrote exaggerated for viewing, was gonna write eggsaggerated for you, but I scribbled it, Not with what you said.

Half the Earth is illuminated is all you got correct. (where`s the global warming ?)

To say everything driving the Earths temperature is soley from sunlight intercepted is not complete. You need to mention exposer times and currents. Land holds heat better than water so air above land is warmer with equal sunlight as water. At night, the more heat over land rises quicker than air over the less heated water. (sea breeze) There`s a lot of water. Then there are places that get no sunlight at all for two or more months. This is all because of the axis.

The Earths temperature is distributed according to the angle at which sunlight strikes the Earth as shown below,.... is misleading. It should read that sunlight is distributed according to the angle at which it strikes the Earth.

In practice, the Earth heats and cools according to rate of loss and gain and movements, not that is just absorbed.

look a summary.....ellipses.

1) The earth is not as exaggerated as my cartoon labeled exaggerated is.
2) I completely disagree. I say it`s because of astronomical night for almost three months each year. (exposer time) Directly related to axis. That cold air for three months moves,...(polar vortexes) Trying to get an average planet temperature and relating that to current and rate changes to climate again is not complete. Zoning is the way to go, not a global average.
3) Total amount of sunlight is not equally distributed between land and water, but incoming constant.
4) If it were not independent, it could not strike anything.
5) The first few meters of the Bearing Sea are not the same as the first few meters of the Red Sea, I see no possible way to average out water temperature with currents a few meters under in locations that never come remotely close in temperatures as others but do blend together. Blend, pay attention to that word.

How`d I do ?
Interesting.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
No wonder there is an issue with scientists, they get to say .."you`re wrong,...not talking to you anymore,...nice ass", then run out.
Dealing with GW scientists is difficult when you must show your proofs and wrongs but they don`t have to.

I`ll label you dog as a google`n phony, wounded and escaping. I`ll do that on the grounds that you use google, I don`t and you do not understand what you present,....I do.

fini shed.
I actually did show you proof that the earth is not shaped as you say. If you won't believe photographs taken from space, then I don't know what more I can say. There is an explanation based upon physics for why the earth is shaped the way it is too.

I don't think you are very good at math so I'm not going to waste my time unless you can at least accept visual evidence and want an explanation of how it got that way.

On the other hand, you scrawled a cartoon depicting some made up shit. How do you propose we go forward if you demand evidence and proof from me regarding an assertion based upon observation, measurement and theory, then deny it with some made up shit?

This is the hard spot between science deniers and scientists. The deniers don't understand and won't try. Scientists worked hard to gain their understanding. I for one, don't know how to simplify some explanations enough to convince a person that won't even try to understand. People had a really hard time being convinced that the earth was not flat, for instance.
 
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OddBall1st

Well-Known Member
I actually did show you proof that the earth is not shaped as you say. If you won't believe photographs taken from space, then I don't know what more I can say. There is an explanation based upon physics for why the earth is shaped the way it is too.

I don't think you are very good at math so I'm not going to waste my time unless you can at least accept visual evidence and want an explanation of how it got that way.

On the other hand, you scrawled a cartoon depicting some made up shit. How do you propose we go forward if you demand evidence and proof from me regarding an assertion based upon observation, measurement and theory, then deny it with some made up shit?

This is the hard spot between science deniers and scientists. The deniers don't understand and won't try. Scientists worked hard to gain their understanding. I for one, don't know how to simplify some explanations enough to convince a person that won't even try to understand. People had a really hard time being convinced that the earth was not flat, for instance.

Not only is it scribbled on the envelope, but I even typed it`s not as it appears as drawn. Get passed that, it can`t be made more simple too.

It`s not a perfect ball. It`s on it`s axis, I wont try to change that.

My issues with you are legit. Equal exposure does not prove equal absorption and even density does not have to mean evenly distributed. The variables do not magically disappear or cancel each other because science has a temperature circle three feet deep in the water at the equator and a foot and a half off the land masses. Do you know why a chicken cooks more evenly in a rotary oven than a standard grill oven ?

Your pic of the Earth with the moon in the foreground shows the North Pole in 24 dark. Sciences explanation you have typed here that the poles have frozen liquids is only because of the angle of the dangle, differs from mine that shows refrigeration effects from 24 dark. Notice the top egg is upright with rotation at 90 to the sun, it will then get equal time and exposer half at a time. Because of the axis and not being a perfect sphere, the Earth`s atmosphere is constantly being strirred and because water temps are different too, they are constantly being stirred. Mars has caps and the moon don`t. If the Earth rotated at 90 to the sun, you could get zone averages but not a Global average. Blend, stir,..

Changing the climates has more to do with how much moisture is in the air than the points I made so science better not lead with observations from out there.
Man is responsible for putting things in the atmosphere that inhibit or allow moisture to be present. A global average temperature would mean evenly distributed moisture, but that isn`t going to happen when everything is being mixed.

Blend, stir, mix.

If I did have a global temperature average, I would also have an alarm button.

You have not shown me global warming in the USA and I gave you a link to a live volcano growing a new glacier in it`s active crater. A warming glacier is possible, as much as a melting from warming one.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Not only is it scribbled on the envelope, but I even typed it`s not as it appears as drawn. Get passed that, it can`t be made more simple too.

It`s not a perfect ball. It`s on it`s axis, I wont try to change that.

My issues with you are legit. Equal exposure does not prove equal absorption and even density does not have to mean evenly distributed. The variables do not magically disappear or cancel each other because science has a temperature circle three feet deep in the water at the equator and a foot and a half off the land masses. Do you know why a chicken cooks more evenly in a rotary oven than a standard grill oven ?

Your pic of the Earth with the moon in the foreground shows the North Pole in 24 dark. Sciences explanation you have typed here that the poles have frozen liquids is only because of the angle of the dangle, differs from mine that shows refrigeration effects from 24 dark. Notice the top egg is upright with rotation at 90 to the sun, it will then get equal time and exposer half at a time. Because of the axis and not being a perfect sphere, the Earth`s atmosphere is constantly being strirred and because water temps are different too, they are constantly being stirred. Mars has caps and the moon don`t. If the Earth rotated at 90 to the sun, you could get zone averages but not a Global average. Blend, stir,..

Changing the climates has more to do with how much moisture is in the air than the points I made so science better not lead with observations from out there.
Man is responsible for putting things in the atmosphere that inhibit or allow moisture to be present. A global average temperature would mean evenly distributed moisture, but that isn`t going to happen when everything is being mixed.

Blend, stir, mix.

If I did have a global temperature average, I would also have an alarm button.

You have not shown me global warming in the USA and I gave you a link to a live volcano growing a new glacier in it`s active crater. A warming glacier is possible, as much as a melting from warming one.
I'm not going to go over everything you said, but I'll hit a couple of points. Starting with your easiest example to refute, that of a new glacier growing in a crater. That new glacier is atop a crater on Mt. St. Helens, which blew up a not too many years ago. A glacier was on top of that mountain before the eruption. Its not surprising that a new glacier is growing there now. The climate hasn't warmed enough to prevent a glacier from coming back.

I don't think you are denying the earth is warming at all are you? The argument is whether or not this warming is caused by man. Or are you refuting any global warming whatsoever?

Just one last point and I'll leave it there. The photograph below shows the earth is shaped like a ball. Do you still claim that the earth is more shaped like an egg? Which axis would the earth be wider at -- the equatorial axis (call this axis 1) or the axis between the poles (call this axis 2). Measurements show the earth is wider by a tiny amount through axis 1. Do you still think the earth is wider through axis 2, the polar axis? If so, what do you base this belief upon?

The reason I'm reluctant to go farther is because I can't have a discussion regarding a scientific topic with somebody that just makes shit up. If you want me to understand and change what I understand to be true, then show evidence to back them up. For instance the north or south poles never have light shining on them at 90 degrees. Other than your cartoon, can you cite a reference to back up your claim?

 
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Fogdog

Well-Known Member
This makes no logical sense. Centripetal force makes the circumference of the Earth slightly larger at the equator, what's the reasoning behind the egg-shaped Earth theory for the poles?
Yup. He doesn't understand anything. Yet feels entitled to an explanation and to disagree if it conflicts with a false image of the world.

I will say that I'm getting what I wanted out of this discussion. That being a better understanding of what science deniers are thinking or, better put, believing without proof. I've been lucky enough to work with better educated people than this and am surprised at how badly our society has failed to teach the basics. Oddball isn't an anomaly. The average person, thankfully is smarter than him. The trend shows that the oil industry and other global polluters are winning the propaganda war. Their methods of seeding doubt are pretty effective.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/182150/views-climate-change-stable-extreme-winter.aspx?g_source=CATEGORY_CLIMATE_CHANGE&g_medium=topic&g_campaign=tiles

 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
February is the month winter disappeared here in Colorado. We got a spring snow, all 18" it was gone in a few days and it's been sunny and sixties pretty much ever since.

If this keeps up I'm expecting a record hot summer and a massive meltdown of any ops that don't have their HVAC nailed down.
Same here in Oregon. Warm but wet thus far. Predictions are for a dry year going forward. I can hardly wait. My vineyard, at least, likes it for the most part. Last year was warm -- really warm -- and the Pinot Noir didn't do well. Maybe I'll have to replant with a variety adapted to warmer climates like Syrah or Cabernet. I hope not though. My Pinot was really good but the grapes ripen too early in hot summers. Vintners in the area say they have continually seen a rise in sugar/alcohol in their Pinot over the decades. Another sign of warming.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Same here in Oregon. Warm but wet thus far. Predictions are for a dry year going forward. I can hardly wait. My vineyard, at least, likes it for the most part. Last year was warm -- really warm -- and the Pinot Noir didn't do well. Maybe I'll have to replant with a variety adapted to warmer climates like Syrah or Cabernet. I hope not though. My Pinot was really good but the grapes ripen too early in hot summers. Vintners in the area say they have continually seen a rise in sugar/alcohol in their Pinot over the decades. Another sign of warming.
I just drove from LA to San Francisco a few days ago and everything was green and beautiful! I've made the drive a few times before in the summer or fall and everything was yellow and dead and ugly looking. I didn't expect that in Feb
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
I just drove from LA to San Francisco a few days ago and everything was green and beautiful! I've made the drive a few times before in the summer or fall and everything was yellow and dead and ugly looking. I didn't expect that in Feb
After several years of drought, I imagine the wildflowers this spring are going to be spectacular in CA.
 

OddBall1st

Well-Known Member
I'm not going to go over everything you said, but I'll hit a couple of points. Starting with your easiest example to refute, that of a new glacier growing in a crater. That new glacier is atop a crater on Mt. St. Helens, which blew up a not too many years ago. A glacier was on top of that mountain before the eruption. Its not surprising that a new glacier is growing there now. The climate hasn't warmed enough to prevent a glacier from coming back.

I don't think you are denying the earth is warming at all are you? The argument is whether or not this warming is caused by man. Or are you refuting any global warming whatsoever?

Just one last point and I'll leave it there. The photograph below shows the earth is shaped like a ball. Do you still claim that the earth is more shaped like an egg? Which axis would the earth be wider at -- the equatorial axis (call this axis 1) or the axis between the poles (call this axis 2). Measurements show the earth is wider by a tiny amount through axis 1. Do you still think the earth is wider through axis 2, the polar axis? If so, what do you base this belief upon?

The reason I'm reluctant to go farther is because I can't have a discussion regarding a scientific topic with somebody that just makes shit up. If you want me to understand and change what I understand to be true, then show evidence to back them up. For instance the north or south poles never have light shining on them at 90 degrees. Other than your cartoon, can you cite a reference to back up your claim?


So the glaciers are melting as proof can be thrown out,...that card has been used to gain funding.

That is correct, I see the overall rise but not so quick to blame mankind. Ice ages have come and gone, assisted or not, the globe has warmed and cooled past and below inhabitable conditions.


Isaac first said the world was oblate spheroid. he was correct. The center of the earth is longer to sea level at the equators than at the poles.

Vic, also added that there was a bit of plasticity that allows it to deform just because it`s spinning.

Then there`s the molten core spinning and changing it`s shape to create "bumps" in the surface.

None of these are really detectable to the human eye. But are in play.

The North and South poles would be located in different spots if there was no lean to shelter them from sunlight. They may not even exist. But mars has two caps and no atmosphere, because it leans too.


Here`s the issue with your picture,... I don`t see any stars in the background, ... go outside and look at the moon, you will see stars in the background. Man has stated that out there, everything is black and white except the colors on earth. they also said you see ten times more stars out there than standing on the ground.

The camera that took the picture, forgot to add stars.
 
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