organic autos on gas lantern lighting

[calliandra]

New grow - new plans, challenges and adventures!

The plan for this one is to grow 2 automatics in living soil on a gas lantern schedule throughout the grow.

The strains:
Pineapple Express from Fast Buds (sativa-leaning 63 day strain - http://2fast4buds.com/seeds/pineapple-express)
Berry Bomb from Bomb Seeds (indica leaning 70 day strain - http://www.bombseeds.nl/berry-bomb-auto.html#.V1kXAqJBY8I)

The setup:
0,5m x 0,9m x 1,87m closet space
extractor fan & carbon filter
150W HID light + 200W CFL - in 2700K & 6500K
28L plastic pots with reamended soil
a pic of the closet from my scrog grow - that's the no-till pot the Pineapple Express is growing in now btw

The gas lantern schedule:
The 24-hour lighting cycle for the whole grow:
12 hours light - 5.5 hrs dark - 1 hr light - 5.5 hrs dark

The Soil and how it's fed:

• The Pineapple Express is in my designated no-till pot, a reamended soil that has seen its first grow. I let it rest for a few months (whilst I was growing in other pots) covered with mulch and occasionally giving it some water, and it seems the roots of the previous plants have been completely composted - the stem came out of the pot with no resistance at all. I checked the microbial life in the soil and you could tell it was kind of dormant. Bacterial diversity was not so great (clearly dominant were the cocci, the round ones) and there was a very low count of protozoans of any kind.
  That got about 5cm topdress of a mix of 3 handsful of wormcast and storebought fungal-leaning (i.e. with lots of woody compost material in it) soil.
• The Berry Bomb's pot has the soil from the grow I just finished in it, amended with that storebought soil and mixed 3 handsful of wormcast into the top layer.

Both got sprinklings of neem meal on top of it all after the babies got planted into them.

This grow is set to add nothing but water and ACT in regular intervals.
I posit that there are enough nutrients in the soils, and all I need to do is to ensure microbial activity is sufficiently abundant and diverse to ensure those nutrients are made available to the plants when they need them.

So I will be checking the quality of my compost teas as well as the resultant soil quality about a week after their application, not scientifically (as in: I didn't check the starting quality of the Berry Bomb's reamended soil, so "datawise" I'm going to be patchy lol), but just enough to get a feel for how conditions look from that microbial perspective.

 

[calliandra]

And so, we begin!
After germinating in a 50:50 used soil & sand mixture in my veg shelf, the sproutlings got potted and moved to the closet last Saturday:


Left pot:
the Berry Bomb started as a tight little midget, so I left the HPS on that side to encourage her to expand. She didn't though, until yesterday, so I've also popped another seed "just in case", which is now about to sprout up next to her. Whoever is more vital will stay, the other will get plucked.

Right pot:
the Pineapple Express - in fairness I should say it sprouted 2 days earlier than the BB, but still! At first, I had the 200W CFL going on her side of the closet. Oh and that's a calendula in there, not happy with the light conditions it got whilst I let the pot rest, hence so wiry

Well, I immediately ran into a big temperature problem with my lights
Since I upgraded them last winter, I got through to now by just having lights on in the night. But my setup just can't process the temps they give off now that ambient is warmer.
That added to the fact that - as opposed to previous rounds, where the plants only went in the closet after having developed 4-5 tiers of leaves - these practically newborn plants hardly have any foliage yet to buffer heat from above and evaporation from the soil below.

But I wanted to put them straight into their final pots after their 1st 2 sets of leaves since they're autos and everything goes so quickly with them that I didn't want to waste time leaving them in the suboptimal veg shelf environment.

So I've been struggling with 35°C at soil level and 30% humidity, which really isn't ideal for starts!
Emergency measures: I turned off the 200W CFL and mulched a light layer of dry grass cuttings to protect the soil after I gave it its first compost tea innoculation yesterday - so they're running on just 150W HPS at the mo, which helps with the temperatures.
But they're showing me that's not good enough lightwise by leaning towards the light.

Here they are today:



So I also got 3 LED COBs from a friend yesterday and hope to get them installed in the next day or so. Then I'll have 150W of LED, which should provide more light than the HIDs with hopefully significantly less heat emission

Really looking forward to that!

 

[calliandra]

More about the gas lantern lighting method

What is picturesquely called the gas lantern routine on cannabis forums is actually a real thing in the world of horticulture (and not just another myth )
It's a photoperiodic control method used in greenhouse management (where it goes by the name of night-interruption) to delay the flowering of short-day plants -- or better, long night plants, since it is the length of the dark phase that determines the accumulation or destruction of flowering hormones: when the night is too short, there isn't enough hormone buildup for a plant to go into flower.
This technique originated in Victorian times (=the rise of greenhouses), where gas lanterns were lighted in the night during the dark season to prevent bloom. Hence the colorful name

So by interrupting the dark phase, hormone production in the plant is influenced - preventing bloom in photoperiodic plants. But there is also another dimension of having shorter light times / more dark times -- the plants are more vital and productive with the increased dark time too. And this, along with electricity savings, is the interesting part in the case of autos

Combining the two has been done, and very successfully, before
- here's a time-lapse documentation of a grow like that - enjoy!!

Further reading:

• grow journal of the time lapse vid:
  https://www.autoflower.net/forums/threads/revenge-of-the-autoultimates-grown-using-the-gas-lantern-routine-dutch-pro-new-led-spectrum.38355/
• lots of diverse info on the gas light schedule and how plants react to it:
  https://www.autoflower.net/forums/threads/the-glr-light-schedule-gas-lantern-routine.47900/

 

[TheStickMan]

Very interesting, can't wait to see how it pans out, very different to your previous grows!
Great information on the gas lantern method as well, thanks!
Let's hope the LED's sort out the heat issues!
All the best for a great harvest!

 

[calliandra]

So I did a bit of fence sitting on the topic of topping, and decided to top the Pineapple Express today.
Because she can grow up to 140cm, and with the big pots that's a tad much even with the upcoming LEDs.
And because the newer leaves were looking kind of retarded anyways (probably from the heat stress?)
And above all because I prefer a bush over an xmas tree in my closet

I am going to count from day of sprouting for this grow -- so this is day-of-life 14 for the PE.

Granted, the Berry Bomb sprouted 2 days later, and yeah, she's started budging now.
But still, at day-of-life 12 she's not anywhere near where the PE was 2 days ago.
The second BB hasn't sprouted yet either.
So these gals look like they're going to be slow ass, and I won't be touching them -- they'll get a bit of LST at the most!


Still looking rather barren there, haha!
But at least the temps and evaporation are under control for now.
Next up: lighting -- Off I go to find some materials for a frame to mount the LEDs onto!

 

[horribleherk]

It's nice to see somethings different than what everyone else does this is gonna be interesting

 

[calliandra]

Welcome aboard, Stick n Herk
Yeah I'm pretty excited about this one myself - though once the environment is set, I suspect there won't be much else to do than kick back and just watch the show unfold And I think I'm slowly getting there!

May there be light, she said.
And there was light!

So I got my grungy LED installed yesterday evening. I love the freestylin' look of it haha!
The friend I got these from loves buying chinese no-name stuff, in fact he makes a statement of it LOL
So while this setup is fully functional, I don't really know how much of anything the plants are really getting.

What I do know:
total of 150W of LED cooled both passively and actively, each with their own driver, whilst the fans share 1 stepdown thingy (allows me to regulate the fan speed too!)
2 "cold white" 100W COBs running at 50W (their ebay description says that's "6000-6500K")
1 "warm white" COB in the middle (3000-3500K)

No info on spectrum, photon flux or any of that stuff, so we'll just have to see if that's enough good light for the girls - in how they react to it

For starts it's looking good:
Temperatures are stable day and night between 20-25°C and humidity now is at 40-50%. That's the way I like it!
And the PE has straightened out - she had been leaning towards the center of the light under the HPS.
So she seems to like it too!


In other news, the second Berry Bomb has begun sprouting - she looks even slow-assier than her "big" sister
I've given both a bit of a humidity dome, maybe that can help them along a bit.


Cheers!

 

[DonBrennon]

Subbed....this should be a fun one to watch and I'm liking the light and the grow concepts.............the problem I've found with my COB light, is that it's made me really unhappy about the 1800w of HID I've got in my main tent now and I'm gonna have to buy a shit load more cobs to cover that pmsl. The difference in light coverage over the area is much better IMO and the reduction in heat created is really helping, especially with the recent hot weather. AND I reckon I should get more yield from 1000w of cob over 1800w of HID

 

[calliandra]

Subbed....this should be a fun one to watch and I'm liking the light and the grow concepts.............the problem I've found with my COB light, is that it's made me really unhappy about the 1800w of HID I've got in my main tent now and I'm gonna have to buy a shit load more cobs to cover that pmsl. The difference in light coverage over the area is much better IMO and the reduction in heat created is really helping, especially with the recent hot weather. AND I reckon I should get more yield from 1000w of cob over 1800w of HID

oh absolutely, given those 1000W are going into a spectrum that is much more usable for the plants!
And welcome to the ride

At the moment I can only hope the spectral curves of these no-names are somewhat similar to the Cree ones.
I'm a bit nervous about the "cold white" ones, thinking they may be too much on the blue side. To the extent that I've had a thought of adding in more red.... But hey, this is a test setup that cost me exactly zero and you can just tell that it's better than what I could run before. Though I really would love to have one of those light spectrometers (https://www.gigahertz-optik.de/en-us/product/msc15#_variants - I wonder that would cost haha) at hand right now!

So I get to mess around with it and observe, and make decisions as to my final desired setup.
For example, the mixed COB colors don't really convince me - I don't see the warm white really "dilute" the more blue ones evenly. So I'm not even sure adding in a red COB would be very useful.
And that makes me realise the way to go will be just 1 COB color - which one, however, is yet to be decided
Of course, then there's the question of UV & infrared too.... maybe they can be added evenly with strips like you've got in your setup somewhere?

But yeah, one thing is for sure: there's no going back!
Thinking about how to get rid of my HIDs without feeling like a con person haha

 

[DonBrennon]

oh absolutely, given those 1000W are going into a spectrum that is much more usable for the plants!
And welcome to the ride

At the moment I can only hope the spectral curves of these no-names are somewhat similar to the Cree ones.
I'm a bit nervous about the "cold white" ones, thinking they may be too much on the blue side. To the extent that I've had a thought of adding in more red.... But hey, this is a test setup that cost me exactly zero and you can just tell that it's better than what I could run before. Though I really would love to have one of those light spectrometers (https://www.gigahertz-optik.de/en-us/product/msc15#_variants - I wonder that would cost haha) at hand right now!

So I get to mess around with it and observe, and make decisions as to my final desired setup.
For example, the mixed COB colors don't really convince me - I don't see the warm white really "dilute" the more blue ones evenly. So I'm not even sure adding in a red COB would be very useful.
And that makes me realise the way to go will be just 1 COB color - which one, however, is yet to be decided
Of course, then there's the question of UV & infrared too.... maybe they can be added evenly with strips like you've got in your setup somewhere?

But yeah, one thing is for sure: there's no going back!
Thinking about how to get rid of my HIDs without feeling like a con person haha

The spectrum dilemma is the only reason I've not purchased yet, the lights will be similar to my prototype, but I'm gonna break it down to 4 x 250w lights(The drivers I'm getting are 400W, but I'll be running em soft, with the option to boost up later if needed), with 2 x 1m long heatsinks housing 4 cxb3070's each, so 32 cobs in total giving me one per square foot of tent.

Reading the led forums gives me a headache after a while........too many conflicting opinions and technical clap trap. There's certainly no general consensus on the issues of spectrum and supplementing cobs with far red etc. I'm really happy with the light I've built and they're all 3000k cobs. The bluer cobs give off more lumens, but the red is more usable in flower. I was gonna go 50/50 3000k/4000k, but I can't make my mind up, if I do go for just 1 colour, it will be 3500k.

 

[horribleherk]

the day is gonna come when an average guy ( or girl) can shop around & get a productive led setup going I gonna have to apply my mind set & get one

 

[whitebb2727]

To each their own.

Might I ask the reasoning for the gas lantern routine?

GLR is for controlling photoperiod plants which an auto is not.

I'm just curious.

Looks good.

 

[calliandra]

The spectrum dilemma is the only reason I've not purchased yet, the lights will be similar to my prototype, but I'm gonna break it down to 4 x 250w lights(The drivers I'm getting are 400W, but I'll be running em soft, with the option to boost up later if needed), with 2 x 1m long heatsinks housing 4 cxb3070's each, so 32 cobs in total giving me one per square foot of tent.

Reading the led forums gives me a headache after a while........too many conflicting opinions and technical clap trap. There's certainly no general consensus on the issues of spectrum and supplementing cobs with far red etc. I'm really happy with the light I've built and they're all 3000k cobs. The bluer cobs give off more lumens, but the red is more usable in flower. I was gonna go 50/50 3000k/4000k, but I can't make my mind up, if I do go for just 1 colour, it will be 3500k.

Oh yeah, if you want a headache, just go read about LED - especially regarding the spectrum
Just did it to myself again haha!!

What makes you favor the CXB3070 over the CXB3590?
I've understood the CXB3590 is just a more powerful version of the CXB3070?
So wouldn't it be more cost-effective to use the 3590s?

 

[calliandra]

To each their own.
Might I ask the reasoning for the gas lantern routine?
GLR is for controlling photoperiod plants which an auto is not.
I'm just curious.
Looks good.

Absolutely
What got me to want to try this GLR with autos nonetheless were other advantages the GLR brings with it: resource savings and plant health. I touched on that a bit further up in this thread: https://www.rollitup.org/t/organic-autos-on-gas-lantern-lighting.911646/#post-12672591
Here's my reasoning:

On the one hand, I got reading about how indoor cannabis grows are total energy wasters.
We use inefficient lights in terms of the wattage we pull and the relatively small amount of it that gets converted to light that is actually usable for the plant.
And we run them for very long times. Light times we see NOwhere on Earth where cannabis grows naturally.

On the other, photosynthesis has a light and a dark phase, and both are necessary for the complete process.
I have this "oh not sure that's really good?" gut feeling about running lights 24/0 or even 20/4 as is very common for autos, or even the "usual" veg 18/6 for that matter. (and yes, I have been meaning to refresh my memory on the exact steps in photosynthesis to confirm or reject this gut feeling, just haven't gotten round to it )
Juxtapose this to the mention of plants getting visibly "tired" in the course of long light times, which I've stumbled over a few times on my reading sprees, and the reports of people using the GLR (photoperiodically and not) as to how alive and healthy their plants are.
So somewhere in there is a "scientific" explanation as to why plants would be more vital when run on the GLR (which gives the plant plenty of dark phase in comparison to our usual schedules).
For now however I am just relying on my intuition, allowing myself to be impatiently curious, and trying it out

 

[calliandra]

I took a look at the soil this week before brewing & applying my next batch of compost tea.
The most significant change in both pots was a marked increase in the bacterial-feeding nematode population - there were about 15 of them in both samples! Also, I saw a slight improvement in bacterial diversity and more protozoans than before. Sadly, I crashed my camera software trying to adjust the coloring and lost my photodocumentation lol

So here's a still from a video I made of an especially pretty nematode (a bacterial feeder with fat "lips" ):

It's not easy to see on this pic, but you get a bit of an idea looking at the little specks - there are now still predominantly round ones (the cocci), but also some short-stick shaped ones (bacilli) and a few combinations (double cocci, double-bacilli), and chains (streptococci and -bacilli). Still lots of room for improvement with regard to protozoan counts and diversity.

So I brewed a nice 34hr (ok by the time I had finished ogling it, it was 36 hrs haha) tea. With very diverse bacteria, and tons of different kinds of protozoans - though I have yet to see a naked amoeba. I suspect a bit too many ciliates - that is if the "fishies" are ciliates and not actually flagellates too -- they're too fast and my microscope not strong enough to get a really good look at them, so I'll have to research those. Also, I found a larva in one of the samples, which also points to slightly anaerobic conditions. Also, I am not getting much fungi, whereby the wormcasts aren't very strong on them either. So I still have leeway for improvement there.

Here's a video of the larva, check out the many different forms jiggling and dancing in the background: the bigger, bumbling round ones are flagellates (plus various kinds of "fishies", some of which may be flagellates too), the small rounds, ovals, and rods are bacteria, and clumps of stringy stuff are probably actinobacteria (or more accurately named, actinomyces):

How my plants liked it? I think they did!
Comparison of before the tea yesterday morning and today:


The Pineapple Express (on the right) is coming along fine despite some damaged leaf tissue, whilst on the (left) BerryBomb side there is still some hesitation. I do have the feeling the BB will start taking off too now though.
We'll see how they fare in the next week!
Cheers!

 

[horribleherk]

this is the slow part of a grow thes is where patients wears thin & I've made most of my mistakes the other boo- boo's mainly come from supercropping after the 4 th. beer

 

[calliandra]

this is the slow part of a grow thes is where patients wears thin & I've made most of my mistakes the other boo- boo's mainly come from supercropping after the 4 th. beer

ouch I think I just heard a branch snap LOL

Actually I'm fine with the Pineapple Express, she's coming along nicely in terms of vigor buildup, and I'll be LSTing her a bit in 2-3 days. Here's her 3 days ago and today:



Despite some mechanical damage to her leaves - either I was clumsy while topping or it's a bit of burn from misting her whilst the lights were on. Oh and hoping that pistil fuzz is just preflower, I really would like to have her a tad bigger before she goes into bloom!


The BerryBomb on the other hand has had me checking in on her multiple times a day haha
The thing I'm most worried about on this grow is that the plants build a good structure before going into bloom, and since I can't control when that is... I'm nervous! LOL

Here she (the lil one is getting plucked for sure, just haven't decided whether to try and save her and guerilla her somewhere) is, 3 days ago and today:

Awww, she's not doing soo bad, eh


So I do think I can stop worrying soon
Another ACT next week is certain, also I've begun playing them (or is it for me? ) chillout music haha

 

[whitebb2727]

Makes sense.

GLR dies have advantages. If running an auto like a 20/4 or 18/6. A person could break that up to run so long then a 30 min break and then run again. Like instead of 18/6 you could run 3/1 if temps are high.

GLR will do the same.

I also don't run long veg times because of how the plants look.

 

[calliandra]

Time for an update!
It's full 4 weeks for both girls now - they're healthy, they're growing, but they're small - and definitely starting to bloom haha

I checked their soil before adding the next batch of ACT and yes, microbial diversity in the soil has improved over last time, but is still nowhere nearly as diverse as the ACT. I've labelled a few of the critters so it's not just psychedelic debris in these pix - the 1st 2 are of the soils, the third is the ACT:



Clearly, the ACT still has lots to offer - and I was a bit irritated by the low protozoan population in the soils ( I neeed those protozoans to cycle the bacterial nutrients!!).
Here's an interesting factlet though: since protozoa and bacterial feeding nematodes compete for the same foods, we will tend to have either the one or the other, and not profuse amounts of both present at any given time. So having seen 15 bacterial nematodes on one slide of the Pineapple Express' soil sample (that's lots!), there is no need to worry about the protozoa still seeming to be underrepresented - especially compared to the ACT, in which protozoan populations thrive whilst nematodes more often than not drown.

I really would like more fungal presence too, but my starting point, the worm compost, is a tad weak on fungi so I'm thinking I can't expect much from the ACT. The lovely thing about notill - I can just keep going on and on improving it, there's no deadline

Of course, it would have been nice to offer these auto girls a fully developed foodweb from the start! I'm thinking a soil that has had a few previous runs, and the auto planted into it straight after, or even before!, the previous plant gets chopped.... ah, dreaming!

In reality, my girls are too small for being short-lived autos that are already going into flower.
But, they're pretty!

Here they are today:

BerryBomb's growing on the left (and in the small pot - yes, she's been extracted, now to decide what to do with her )
And the Pineapple Express got a quick and simple LST a few days ago, she wasn't bothered much



Actually, it's the calendula that's getting the most attention at the moment, I need to pinch a leaf or 2 of hers daily so the girls don't get swamped lol She really is showing us how the soil life has been activated

So day 30 for the Pineapple express (almost official halftime), day 28 for the older BB.
I get the feeling they're way too small for being autos, but then again maybe I shouldn't compare my not-quite-tuned-in environment with automatics-pros like @TaNg PeNg ? Just look at his plants on day 30 (ok it's different strains and all - I want to try that sour stomper soon btw! - but STILL!!!! I have to go back to that post again and over to check if I read "day 30" correctly, they're so amazing): https://www.rollitup.org/t/tangs-mephisto-room.908783/page-4#post-12660822

Cheers!

 

[TheStickMan]

Looking really nice and healthy Calli, did you top the Pineapple? Don't let that Calendula steal the show the greedy sod! haha