Clones of Clones - Loss of Vigor?

[T.C. Bosby]

I'm trying to determine whether or not to keep a mother plant, or just to take clones of clones. I've read arguments saying that clones will lose vigor over time if taken from clones, while others say there won't be any issues. Not having to keep a mother plant would free up additional space for growing and yield.

From my understanding, shouldn't vigor be the same regardless?

This is how I look at it...

Let's say Plant A is the mother. No matter when I take a cutting from it, shouldn't the genetic age of the clone match the mother? For instance, if the mother is 6 months old, a clone taken from it would be an exact match, meaning it'd also be 6 months old in terms of genetic makeup?

So if Plant B is a clone taken from Plant A when A is 6 months old, Plant B would in effect be the same age (even if it is smaller in size). So in 6 months, Plant A would be 12 months old. Wouldn't Plant B then also be 12 months old in terms of genetics, even though it is only 6 months old in terms of its physical existence?

If I'm an idiot, please let me know. Most on this forum have more experience than me, so I'm just trying to get my head wrapped around this issue. In the end, I want to make the decision that will allow for the best quality flower, but right now I can't tell which is the correct one.

Thank you!

 

[researching]

You will lose vigor. I don't have a scientific answer but I ran some strains for well over a year and would take clones from clones from clones etc.. I don't do that anymore. It's when A becomes B and B becomes C etc... that it happens. Age doesn't matter really AFAIK. Look at some breeders that have mothers and fathers decades old. This is my experience. Now I typically will only clone seed mother or 2nd gen. No further down the line than that.

 

[FamMan]

This topic has been racking my mind. My train of thought leads me to believe clone>clone loses vigor. Im purchasing seeds and starting mothers. I hope I'm right. I'm on 3rd and 4th Gen clone to clones and I'm not as happy from the first go round. Hope this helps and I'm dieing to hear some input. Peace.

 

[researching]

This topic has been racking my mind. My train of thought leads me to believe clone>clone loses vigor. Im purchasing seeds and starting mothers. I hope I'm right. I'm on 3rd and 4th Gen clone to clones and I'm not as happy from the first go round. Hope this helps and I'm dieing to hear some input. Peace.

I did exactly what you did for the same reasons. Plus to get what couldn't be gotten locally. I still acquire clones via generous gifters on occasion, I just popped some blue lime pie I am excited to play with.

 

[Lord Kanti]

Clones are genetically identical. The only issue I can see is having an eternal mother years up upon years old, whether it be via clone of clone, or a bush kept in veg. I think cuttings root faster on new genetics, but I've yet to prove this without a doubt.

 

[GardenGnome83]

You will not lose any of the original mother's traits. I've never had a clone lose potency or become less vigorous over time. In fact, clones tend to finish a bit faster than their mother's.

 

[GardenGnome83]

Clones are genetically identical. The only issue I can see is having an eternal mother years up upon years old, whether it be via clone of clone, or a bush kept in veg. I think cuttings root faster on new genetics, but I've yet to prove this without a doubt.

I've found that if I continuously make new mom's every couple runs the clones root just as fast as day 1.

 

[racerboy71]

i like to think about this subject like this.. look at all of the strains that are out there that are clone only, meaning, you can't just go out and buy seeds of said strain, crack them and get the same plant as the clone only.. now, if a strain is clone only, and there's tons and tons of them, a lot of them highly sought after, this means that the only way these strains exist is by taking clone after clone after clone, you get the idea.. some clone only strains are decades old easily, and if any sort of genetic drift happened, than these clone only strains wouldn't be as sought after, nor fetch the high price many of them get in the market, if you can even get your hands on them..
just think of how many generations away from the original mother plant some of these strains must be, for example let''s use uk cheese, which i think has been going around the uk since around the mid 90's or so.. over 20 some odd years, you can imagine how many clones have come from the original mother plant, yet you really don't hear of anyone saying that uk cheese has gotten any worse over the years due to genetic drift or what have you..
i will say that strains will react differently to different environments, and may exhibit a few different traits according to how and where they're grown out at.. the only other thing i've heard of is a cut getting hit with an odd virus or something along the line, and all of it's offspring being effected in a negative way. i've heard of this happening to gg4, although i'm not too sure of the legitimacy of said claims, but i've heard that if you get the cuts from an earlier mother, they're much better than cuts from later on as something along the line happened to the plant that effected and changed it for the worse.. again, this is not the same as genetic drift imo.

 

[researching]

Clones are genetically identical. The only issue I can see is having an eternal mother years up upon years old, whether it be via clone of clone, or a bush kept in veg. I think cuttings root faster on new genetics, but I've yet to prove this without a doubt.

I forgot to mention that about rooting. I have noticed that also. Even a slow down in rooting is loss of vigor.

 

[researching]

I've found that if I continuously make new mom's every couple runs the clones root just as fast as day 1.

When you say make new moms are you saying you take a clone, lets say 5th gen for example and grow her out to a mom size? If so, are you then taking clones from bottom, top, or everywhere?

 

[researching]

i like to think about this subject like this.. look at all of the strains that are out there that are clone only, meaning, you can't just go out and buy seeds of said strain, crack them and get the same plant as the clone only.. now, if a strain is clone only, and there's tons and tons of them, a lot of them highly sought after, this means that the only way these strains exist is by taking clone after clone after clone, you get the idea.. some clone only strains are decades old easily, and if any sort of genetic drift happened, than these clone only strains wouldn't be as sought after, nor fetch the high price many of them get in the market, if you can even get your hands on them..
just think of how many generations away from the original mother plant some of these strains must be, for example let''s use uk cheese, which i think has been going around the uk since around the mid 90's or so.. over 20 some odd years, you can imagine how many clones have come from the original mother plant, yet you really don't hear of anyone saying that uk cheese has gotten any worse over the years due to genetic drift or what have you..
i will say that strains will react differently to different environments, and may exhibit a few different traits according to how and where they're grown out at.. the only other thing i've heard of is a cut getting hit with an odd virus or something along the line, and all of it's offspring being effected in a negative way. i've heard of this happening to gg4, although i'm not too sure of the legitimacy of said claims, but i've heard that if you get the cuts from an earlier mother, they're much better than cuts from later on as something along the line happened to the plant that effected and changed it for the worse.. again, this is not the same as genetic drift imo.

Good point!

 

[GardenGnome83]

I forgot to mention that about rooting. I have noticed that also. Even a slow down in rooting is loss of vigor.

That is likely due to the age of the mother plant. The stems get tough, and it takes longer to root harder cuttings. I switch mothers out constantly and have clones ready for dirt in 6 to 8 days.

 

[researching]

That is likely due to the age of the mother plant. The stems get tough, and it takes longer to root harder cuttings. I switch mothers out constantly and have clones ready for dirt in 6 to 8 days.

This is when I would take clones from clones, not old mothers.

 

[GardenGnome83]

When you say make new moms are you saying you take a clone, lets say 5th gen for example and grow her out to a mom size? If so, are you then taking clones from bottom, top, or everywhere?

I will take a few decent sized branches from the middle to the top and put them in the cloner, then put mom and others in flower. Repeat as needed

 

[researching]

I rotate the strains fairly consistently now and will do typically 2-3 runs, maybe more and usually take cuts of the different phenos, then flower the seed moms, then turn the pheno I like the best into the next mom, flower the other 2nd gen phenos and go that route until I am ready to switch to a different strain.

 

[researching]

I will take a few decent sized branches from the middle to the top and put them in the cloner, then put mom and others in flower. Repeat as needed

I used to only take from the bottom but now will take from the top so I can get a bunch of extra nodes right off the bat. No problems rooting. I avg 95%+ success rate with clones.

 

[researching]

I rotate the strains fairly consistently now and will do typically 2-3 runs, maybe more and usually take cuts of the different phenos, then flower the seed moms, then turn the pheno I like the best into the next mom, flower the other 2nd gen phenos and go that route until I am ready to switch to a different strain.

I need to start utilizing sts solution more so I can have beans for my good ones like black domina.

 

[GardenGnome83]

I rotate the strains fairly consistently now and will do typically 2-3 runs, maybe more and usually take cuts of the different phenos, then flower the seed moms, then turn the pheno I like the best into the next mom, flower the other 2nd gen phenos and go that route until I am ready to switch to a different strain.

The way I do it is nice if you like variety. It saves space so you can run more strains. I keep looking for new genetics, so I rotate a lot.

 

[researching]

The way I do it is nice if you like variety. It saves space so you can run more strains. I keep looking for new genetics, so I rotate a lot.

That is how I used to do it essentially. Except they would not get to be moms. I would take a cut or two from each plant and go that route. It's better when you have plant limits. I started noticing rooting problems and some herms. I ran the flav for abt a year and a half like that and started seeing a fade.

 

[Lord Kanti]

I forgot to mention that about rooting. I have noticed that also. Even a slow down in rooting is loss of vigor.

So long as the end product has what is expected, I'll have to factor in additional time for cloning. I wish I wouldn't have to, but I wouldn't want to lose phenotypes as a cost to avoid it.