400W 800PPFD in a 4x4 can it be done?

MeGaKiLlErMaN

MeGaKiLlErMaN

Well-Known Member
The title says it all, Ive been mixing and matching with the LED calculator and this is where I think Ill really be happy I would settle with 500W at the wall but Im just trying to run the numbers. If its possible to get over 800PPFD I would be ecstatic.

Thoughts on how to achieve this? Assume that price isn't the issue but I would still prefer the cheapest option

This seems to be the closest that I can get with my knowledge. (ignore HS data)


CXB3590DB36V4000K 16 COBS @1.05A ON 1.813 PROFILE HEATSINK
16 SQ.FT. CANOPY 92% EFFICIENT DRIVER @10 CENTS PER KWH
Total power watts at the wall: 618.48
Cobs power watts: 569
Total voltage forward: 542
Total lumens: 121891
Total PAR watts assuming 10% loss: 340
Total PPF: 1540.2
PPFD based on canopy area: 1036.16
PAR watts per sq.ft.: 21.25
Cob efficiency: 66.32%
Power watts per sq.ft.: 35.56
Voltage forward per cob: 33.85
Lumens per watt: 214.22
Heatsink riser thickness / number of fins / fin's length: 0.3in/6/0.95in
Heatsink area per inch: 100.94 cm^2
Total heat watts: 192
umol/s/W / CRI: 4.53 / 70CRI
Heatsink length passive cooling @120cm^2/heatwatt: 228 inches
Heatsink length active cooling @40cm^2/heatwatt: 76 inches
COB cost dollar per PAR watt: $2.36
Electric cost @12/12 in 30 days: $22.77
Electric cost @18/6 in 30 days: $33.9
Cost per cob: $50.17
Heatsink cost per inch cut: $0.66
Total cobs cost: $803
Total heatsink passive cooling cost: $150
Total heatsink active cooling cost: $50
 
Airwalker16

Airwalker16

Well-Known Member
MeGaKiLlErMaN said:
The title says it all, Ive been mixing and matching with the LED calculator and this is where I think Ill really be happy I would settle with 500W at the wall but Im just trying to run the numbers. If its possible to get over 800PPFD I would be ecstatic.

Thoughts on how to achieve this? Assume that price isn't the issue but I would still prefer the cheapest option

This seems to be the closest that I can get with my knowledge. (ignore HS data)


CXB3590DB36V4000K 16 COBS @1.05A ON 1.813 PROFILE HEATSINK
16 SQ.FT. CANOPY 92% EFFICIENT DRIVER @10 CENTS PER KWH
Total power watts at the wall: 618.48
Cobs power watts: 569
Total voltage forward: 542
Total lumens: 121891
Total PAR watts assuming 10% loss: 340
Total PPF: 1540.2
PPFD based on canopy area: 1036.16
PAR watts per sq.ft.: 21.25
Cob efficiency: 66.32%
Power watts per sq.ft.: 35.56
Voltage forward per cob: 33.85
Lumens per watt: 214.22
Heatsink riser thickness / number of fins / fin's length: 0.3in/6/0.95in
Heatsink area per inch: 100.94 cm^2
Total heat watts: 192
umol/s/W / CRI: 4.53 / 70CRI
Heatsink length passive cooling @120cm^2/heatwatt: 228 inches
Heatsink length active cooling @40cm^2/heatwatt: 76 inches
COB cost dollar per PAR watt: $2.36
Electric cost @12/12 in 30 days: $22.77
Electric cost @18/6 in 30 days: $33.9
Cost per cob: $50.17
Heatsink cost per inch cut: $0.66
Total cobs cost: $803
Total heatsink passive cooling cost: $150
Total heatsink active cooling cost: $50
Click to expand...
You've gotta use bigger sink that that. I'd go with what everyone uses and get the 5. 886" profile. @ 1.05a you can run passively
 
Airwalker16

Airwalker16

Well-Known Member
I just did 8 ( half of what you'd use) @ 1.75amps. I wish I'd done this setup more though. 16 cobs would be so awesome.
 
MeGaKiLlErMaN

MeGaKiLlErMaN

Well-Known Member
Ok I found the answer, I just had to think a bit outside the box. Ill just run slightly closer than 1Ft and there we go 800PPFD for 502W at the wall while using the most efficient Driver possible.


CXB3070BD4000K 20 COBS @0.7A ON 1.813 PROFILE HEATSINK
16 SQ.FT. CANOPY 94% EFFICIENT DRIVER @10 CENTS PER KWH
Total power watts at the wall: 502.13
Cobs power watts: 472
Total voltage forward: 675
Total lumens: 94112
Total PAR watts assuming 10% loss: 262
Total PPF: 1184.24
PPFD based on canopy area: 796.69
PAR watts per sq.ft.: 16.38
Cob efficiency: 61.73%
Power watts per sq.ft.: 29.5
Voltage forward per cob: 33.73
Lumens per watt: 199.39
Heatsink riser thickness / number of fins / fin's length: 0.3in/6/0.95in
Heatsink area per inch: 100.94 cm^2
Total heat watts: 181
umol/s/W / CRI: 4.52 / 70CRI
Heatsink length passive cooling @120cm^2/heatwatt: 215 inches
Heatsink length active cooling @40cm^2/heatwatt: 72 inches
COB cost dollar per PAR watt: $2.47
Electric cost @12/12 in 30 days: $18.58
Electric cost @18/6 in 30 days: $27.62
Cost per cob: $32.38
Heatsink cost per inch cut: $0.66
Total cobs cost: $648
Total heatsink passive cooling cost: $142
Total heatsink active cooling cost: $47

OR this much more expensive setup...Im thinking that I need some good numbers for Citi to see how they run...Idk why the Citi calculator has the Tj section and I know nothing about it.


CXB3590DB36V4000K 20 COBS @0.7A ON 1.813 PROFILE HEATSINK
16 SQ.FT. CANOPY 94% EFFICIENT DRIVER @10 CENTS PER KWH
Total power watts at the wall: 487.23
Cobs power watts: 458
Total voltage forward: 654
Total lumens: 102583
Total PAR watts assuming 10% loss: 286
Total PPF: 1295.58
PPFD based on canopy area: 871.59
PAR watts per sq.ft.: 17.88
Cob efficiency: 69.34%
Power watts per sq.ft.: 28.63
Voltage forward per cob: 32.72
Lumens per watt: 223.98
Heatsink riser thickness / number of fins / fin's length: 0.3in/6/0.95in
Heatsink area per inch: 100.94 cm^2
Total heat watts: 140
umol/s/W / CRI: 4.53 / 70CRI
Heatsink length passive cooling @120cm^2/heatwatt: 166 inches
Heatsink length active cooling @40cm^2/heatwatt: 55 inches
COB cost dollar per PAR watt: $3.51
Electric cost @12/12 in 30 days: $18.04
Electric cost @18/6 in 30 days: $26.81
Cost per cob: $50.17
Heatsink cost per inch cut: $0.66
Total cobs cost: $1003
Total heatsink passive cooling cost: $110
Total heatsink active cooling cost: $36


and then theres the 1212 option.



1212 4000K80Min 40 COBS @350 mA ON 5.88 PROFILE HEATSINK
16 SQ.FT. CANOPY 94% EFFICIENT DRIVER @10 CENTS PER KWH
Total power watts at the wall: 507.02
Cobs power watts: 476.60
Total voltage forward: 1361.71
Total lumens: 90070.43
Total PAR watts assuming 10% loss: 239.83
Total PPF: 1265.78
PPFD based on canopy area: 851.55
PAR watts per sq.ft.: 14.99
Cob efficiency: 55.91%
Power watts per sq.ft.: 29.79
Voltage forward per cob: 34.04
Lumens per watt: 188.99
Heatsink riser thickness / number of fins / fin's length: 0.27in/14/1.0in
Heatsink area per inch: 260.01 cm^2
Total heat watts: 209.70
umol/s/W: 2.66 LER: 338.00 QER: 4.75
Heatsink length passive cooling @120cm^2/heatwatt: 97 inches
Heatsink length active cooling @40cm^2/heatwatt: 32 inches
COB cost dollar per PAR watt: $2.00
Electric cost @12/12 in 30 days: $18.25
Electric cost @18/6 in 30 days: $27.38
Cost per cob: $12.0
Heatsink cost per inch cut: $1.74
Total cobs cost: $480.0
Total heatsink passive cooling cost: $168.78
Total heatsink active cooling cost: $55.68

alternate option?


1212 4000K80Min 38 COBS @350 mA ON 5.88 PROFILE HEATSINK
16 SQ.FT. CANOPY 94% EFFICIENT DRIVER @10 CENTS PER KWH
Total power watts at the wall: 481.67
Cobs power watts: 452.77
Total voltage forward: 1293.62
Total lumens: 85566.91
Total PAR watts assuming 10% loss: 227.84
Total PPF: 1202.49
PPFD based on canopy area: 808.97
PAR watts per sq.ft.: 14.24
Cob efficiency: 55.91%
Power watts per sq.ft.: 28.30
Voltage forward per cob: 34.04
Lumens per watt: 188.99
Heatsink riser thickness / number of fins / fin's length: 0.27in/14/1.0in
Heatsink area per inch: 260.01 cm^2
Total heat watts: 199.22
umol/s/W: 2.66 LER: 338.00 QER: 4.75
Heatsink length passive cooling @120cm^2/heatwatt: 92 inches
Heatsink length active cooling @40cm^2/heatwatt: 31 inches
COB cost dollar per PAR watt: $2.00
Electric cost @12/12 in 30 days: $17.34
Electric cost @18/6 in 30 days: $26.01
Cost per cob: $12.0
Heatsink cost per inch cut: $1.74
Total cobs cost: $456.0
Total heatsink passive cooling cost: $160.08
Total heatsink active cooling cost: $53.94
 
Last edited:
Airwalker16

Airwalker16

Well-Known Member
MeGaKiLlErMaN said:
Ok I found the answer, I just had to think a bit outside the box. Ill just run slightly closer than 1Ft and there we go 800PPFD for 502W at the wall while using the most efficient Driver possible.


CXB3070BD4000K 20 COBS @0.7A ON 1.813 PROFILE HEATSINK
16 SQ.FT. CANOPY 94% EFFICIENT DRIVER @10 CENTS PER KWH
Total power watts at the wall: 502.13
Cobs power watts: 472
Total voltage forward: 675
Total lumens: 94112
Total PAR watts assuming 10% loss: 262
Total PPF: 1184.24
PPFD based on canopy area: 796.69
PAR watts per sq.ft.: 16.38
Cob efficiency: 61.73%
Power watts per sq.ft.: 29.5
Voltage forward per cob: 33.73
Lumens per watt: 199.39
Heatsink riser thickness / number of fins / fin's length: 0.3in/6/0.95in
Heatsink area per inch: 100.94 cm^2
Total heat watts: 181
umol/s/W / CRI: 4.52 / 70CRI
Heatsink length passive cooling @120cm^2/heatwatt: 215 inches
Heatsink length active cooling @40cm^2/heatwatt: 72 inches
COB cost dollar per PAR watt: $2.47
Electric cost @12/12 in 30 days: $18.58
Electric cost @18/6 in 30 days: $27.62
Cost per cob: $32.38
Heatsink cost per inch cut: $0.66
Total cobs cost: $648
Total heatsink passive cooling cost: $142
Total heatsink active cooling cost: $47

OR this much more expensive setup...Im thinking that I need some good numbers for Citi to see how they run...Idk why the Citi calculator has the Tj section and I know nothing about it.


CXB3590DB36V4000K 20 COBS @0.7A ON 1.813 PROFILE HEATSINK
16 SQ.FT. CANOPY 94% EFFICIENT DRIVER @10 CENTS PER KWH
Total power watts at the wall: 487.23
Cobs power watts: 458
Total voltage forward: 654
Total lumens: 102583
Total PAR watts assuming 10% loss: 286
Total PPF: 1295.58
PPFD based on canopy area: 871.59
PAR watts per sq.ft.: 17.88
Cob efficiency: 69.34%
Power watts per sq.ft.: 28.63
Voltage forward per cob: 32.72
Lumens per watt: 223.98
Heatsink riser thickness / number of fins / fin's length: 0.3in/6/0.95in
Heatsink area per inch: 100.94 cm^2
Total heat watts: 140
umol/s/W / CRI: 4.53 / 70CRI
Heatsink length passive cooling @120cm^2/heatwatt: 166 inches
Heatsink length active cooling @40cm^2/heatwatt: 55 inches
COB cost dollar per PAR watt: $3.51
Electric cost @12/12 in 30 days: $18.04
Electric cost @18/6 in 30 days: $26.81
Cost per cob: $50.17
Heatsink cost per inch cut: $0.66
Total cobs cost: $1003
Total heatsink passive cooling cost: $110
Total heatsink active cooling cost: $36


and then theres the 1212 option.



1212 4000K80Min 40 COBS @350 mA ON 5.88 PROFILE HEATSINK
16 SQ.FT. CANOPY 94% EFFICIENT DRIVER @10 CENTS PER KWH
Total power watts at the wall: 507.02
Cobs power watts: 476.60
Total voltage forward: 1361.71
Total lumens: 90070.43
Total PAR watts assuming 10% loss: 239.83
Total PPF: 1265.78
PPFD based on canopy area: 851.55
PAR watts per sq.ft.: 14.99
Cob efficiency: 55.91%
Power watts per sq.ft.: 29.79
Voltage forward per cob: 34.04
Lumens per watt: 188.99
Heatsink riser thickness / number of fins / fin's length: 0.27in/14/1.0in
Heatsink area per inch: 260.01 cm^2
Total heat watts: 209.70
umol/s/W: 2.66 LER: 338.00 QER: 4.75
Heatsink length passive cooling @120cm^2/heatwatt: 97 inches
Heatsink length active cooling @40cm^2/heatwatt: 32 inches
COB cost dollar per PAR watt: $2.00
Electric cost @12/12 in 30 days: $18.25
Electric cost @18/6 in 30 days: $27.38
Cost per cob: $12.0
Heatsink cost per inch cut: $1.74
Total cobs cost: $480.0
Total heatsink passive cooling cost: $168.78
Total heatsink active cooling cost: $55.68

alternate option?


1212 4000K80Min 38 COBS @350 mA ON 5.88 PROFILE HEATSINK
16 SQ.FT. CANOPY 94% EFFICIENT DRIVER @10 CENTS PER KWH
Total power watts at the wall: 481.67
Cobs power watts: 452.77
Total voltage forward: 1293.62
Total lumens: 85566.91
Total PAR watts assuming 10% loss: 227.84
Total PPF: 1202.49
PPFD based on canopy area: 808.97
PAR watts per sq.ft.: 14.24
Cob efficiency: 55.91%
Power watts per sq.ft.: 28.30
Voltage forward per cob: 34.04
Lumens per watt: 188.99
Heatsink riser thickness / number of fins / fin's length: 0.27in/14/1.0in
Heatsink area per inch: 260.01 cm^2
Total heat watts: 199.22
umol/s/W: 2.66 LER: 338.00 QER: 4.75
Heatsink length passive cooling @120cm^2/heatwatt: 92 inches
Heatsink length active cooling @40cm^2/heatwatt: 31 inches
COB cost dollar per PAR watt: $2.00
Electric cost @12/12 in 30 days: $17.34
Electric cost @18/6 in 30 days: $26.01
Cost per cob: $12.0
Heatsink cost per inch cut: $1.74
Total cobs cost: $456.0
Total heatsink passive cooling cost: $160.08
Total heatsink active cooling cost: $53.94
Click to expand...
Omg you'll have the most pimpin ass spread ever with 1212's. Use 4- 44" 5.886"profile heatsinks and stagger 10 cobs on each one.
image.jpeg this is only 16 cobs! You'll have FORTY!
 
MeGaKiLlErMaN

MeGaKiLlErMaN

Well-Known Member
Airwalker16 said:
Omg you'll have the most pimpin ass spread ever with 1212's. Use 4- 44" 5.886"profile heatsinks and stagger 10 cobs on each one.
View attachment 3783174 this is only 16 cobs! You'll have FORTY!
Click to expand...
Hell yeah it would be sick! I'm still going to mess around with that a bit to see how cheap I can end up getting it. In your photos shouldn't the PPFD be for a given area rather than a specific section of the area? Like how I have it for the DE HPS i measured?

So a DE Gavita is 620PPFD in a 4x4

Also for the above lights, my 10x15 room would be running at 4000W and pulling a lot more than most 7k rooms! Which is the point I guess lol
 
Last edited:
PhotonFUD

PhotonFUD

Well-Known Member
Running 1212s at 3.1w is 77% efficient - so 130 1212s will get you about 320w of light for ~400w wall power.
 
MeGaKiLlErMaN

MeGaKiLlErMaN

Well-Known Member
So taking this:


1212 4000K80Min 40 COBS @350 mA ON 5.88 PROFILE HEATSINK
16 SQ.FT. CANOPY 94% EFFICIENT DRIVER @10 CENTS PER KWH
Total power watts at the wall: 507.02
Cobs power watts: 476.60
Total voltage forward: 1361.71
Total lumens: 90070.43
Total PAR watts assuming 10% loss: 239.83
Total PPF: 1265.78
PPFD based on canopy area: 851.55
PAR watts per sq.ft.: 14.99
Cob efficiency: 55.91%
Power watts per sq.ft.: 29.79
Voltage forward per cob: 34.04
Lumens per watt: 188.99
Heatsink riser thickness / number of fins / fin's length: 0.27in/14/1.0in
Heatsink area per inch: 260.01 cm^2
Total heat watts: 209.70
umol/s/W: 2.66 LER: 338.00 QER: 4.75
Heatsink length passive cooling @120cm^2/heatwatt: 97 inches
Heatsink length active cooling @40cm^2/heatwatt: 32 inches
COB cost dollar per PAR watt: $2.00
Electric cost @12/12 in 30 days: $18.25
Electric cost @18/6 in 30 days: $27.38
Cost per cob: $12.0
Heatsink cost per inch cut: $1.74
Total cobs cost: $480.0
Total heatsink passive cooling cost: $168.78
Total heatsink active cooling cost: $55.68

And adding it to two rows ran in two parallel circuits. Driven by two (HVGC-240-700A at $94 each... Im sure they're cheaper somewhere else...) (700/2=350 per string)

Total Cost would be $838 including everything but wires.


http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Mean-Well/HVGC-240-700A/?qs=9DwIlvx97aeRYNZDAmSA%2bw==
http://www.meanwell.com/webapp/product/search.aspx?prod=hvgc-240

This is a serious contender for when I get the whole room going with 9 4x4s...(150Sq/F) to fill the whole room with 850PPFD (I could get a little closer than 1ft as well with that spread...) would cost $7,542 pushing 4563W not even taking into consideration the small amount of overlap.
 
JorgeGonzales

JorgeGonzales

Well-Known Member
Lumens per watt: 188.99 seems a little too high. It wouldn't make much difference at these low currents, but it might at higher ones when temperature matters more. @bggrass how do you pick a temperature for your lumens/W?

I'd also suggest trying larger cobs, and less of them. The price won't change much, but the build will be much easier.
 
MeGaKiLlErMaN

MeGaKiLlErMaN

Well-Known Member
JorgeGonzales said:
Lumens per watt: 188.99 seems a little too high. It wouldn't make much difference at these low currents, but it might at higher ones when temperature matters more. @bggrass how do you pick a temperature for your lumens/W?

I'd also suggest trying larger cobs, and less of them. The price won't change much, but the build will be much easier.
Click to expand...
Ive got an electrical background and history of modding Xbox360s so Im ok with wiring 40 Cobs but yes i kinow that a bigger LES would help but we will see. The calculator seems to act odd with the citi leds so its hard for me to say, since I know the citi 58 should show as more efficient than it does.
Also I have tried the cree and veros but they just dont put out that much PPFD around those wattages.
 
PhotonFUD

PhotonFUD

Well-Known Member
CobKits said:
please stop repeating this! the chip is not 77% efficient at 3W ill get us some better numbers soon but please stop repeating that
Click to expand...
But it sounds so good.

It will be good to know. More cobs under driven is less heat so I doubt you need those sinks.
 
MeGaKiLlErMaN

MeGaKiLlErMaN

Well-Known Member
a mongo frog said:
Why though? people are already hitting a pound from 400-500 watts with all the light sources. Cob, HPS,CMH. Whats being proven here?
Click to expand...
The wattage isnt the important part it just tells you how much electricity youre using... The PPFD tells you how much usable light lands at your plants..

So looking at it in a numbers from if a gavita gets around 620PPFD at 2ft and thats over 1000W at the wall... then you run a 507W at the wall at 850PPFD in the same area...

That would use half the electricity to get 1.37 times more yield.. over a whole area. I can hit 1.7 Lbs with one DE so thats what Im aiming to do with that half the wattage and zero AC. Since that grow Ive only been doing research so I feel its do able.

(the journal
https://forum.grasscity.com/threads/first-grow-dwc-auto-ultimate.1391144/page-4#post-22511655 )

Of course thats theory and all numbers... But its not too far off... Lowest Wattage and Highest PPFD is what most people are after I just like comparing to a number I know I can get.
 
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