Organic vs. hydro... another rant.

[REALSTYLES]

DYK @Johnny-mariseed, that "OrganicTM" is unfortunately just a marketing tool, a mere marketing cliche used by industry to bait good people. Organics draws more from emotion than reason--logical fallacies everywhere. People have strong emotions and opinions towards organics, which really only is great for industry profits, but ultimately we need rationality and reason if we really want to work with nature.

Organics has weak scientific benefit compared to well maintained hydroponics. For instance, I have major drought issues, my city is running out of water, and soil gardens use much more water than hydroponics, thus soil really is not better for nature in this regard.

Nutrients and taste and smells: plants really don't give a shit if they get their iron from monsanto or maharajah-blessed moon-blood (plants are nihilists), genetics and energy intake naturally determines most of the taste and smell. Plants only need mineral nutrients to perform best, though chelates and other organic compounds and beneficial microorganisms can help. I have seen peer-reviewed publications dismissing organics and soil being better than hydroponics in terms of aesthetic qualities (taste, smell, colour etc) and ecology. And to think of it, it seems far-fetched that shit can improve the smell and taste of anything.

Practically: yes a lot can go wrong with hydro, and it is intimidating, but that's generally how plants are in the first place. Hydroponics is a science and an art.

So it's myopic to say an absolute hydroponic or organic paradigm is ultimately the best, though personally I lean towards the efficiency of hydroponics being better for cash cropping, mother nature, and modern urbanised society. Nature can benefit from chemicals and artificial things too, the world isn't so black and white.

You don't even have a clue of what you said lol

 

[Chunky Stool]

it may be controversial to some (albeit illogically) but my favorite thing to use for short term nitrogen issues is urine
not sure how or why organic growers are happy to use seabird or bat guano but sterile urine is somehow "gross"
but I like it for more than just that, sometimes certain situations can lead a grower to think the issue is a nitrogen def, and in reality it often isn't and if you used urine erroneously as an attempt to rectify that problem it's easily rinsed from the soil media.
whereas often growers will use topdresses of nitrogen inputs in an attempt to fix it and those aren't easy at all to remove from the soil if in fact the problem was NOT a nitrogen def too begin with
but sometimes magnesium issues can fool you, as well as poor drainage/wet media, those can yellow up a plant verrry similar to a nitrogen def

I've heard that human urine can contain a lot of sodium. Probably depends on your diet. Also, I'm not sure if urea N is immediately available to the plant.
Not sure why people have a problem with urine. Hell, seabird guano is a mix of both pee and poop since birds combine them into the same stream. That's also why chicken shit is so hot -- lots of N.

 

[chemphlegm]

View attachment 3937766

Anyone ever trigger responses like this!? ps. Organic soil, Cob Led, tight Dojo !

I sure did
I loved my hydro, I really did. then for shits and giggles I planted my # 1 of all time strain in a bucket of pro mix with a scoop of Organicare composted chix shit, water only and this blew my mind. I never had a complaint in hydro and this was over the top expressions. sure, a little slow in veg, but who gives a shit, the flowering is the same but added value flavor and every other expression. I put my hydro's in the rafters and run a solid pro mix grow without any issues for years.

 

[chemphlegm]

Anything added to the substrate can alter flavors guaranteed.
I dont like the smell of nitrogen fertilizer, evident on new city lawns, hydro ferts, etc. I've smelled my over fed flowers, they smell like fertilizer, if I ate them I bet they taste like fertilizer.(nitrogen?) the ones I grow in dirt, the ones we do eat actualy dont smell like this and certainly dont taste like it either.
My Advanced Nutrients pro mix buckets taste very different than my organic ones. both are superb, I'll stick with the organic every time.

I end my bunnies with a week of meals, like carrots, apples, not pissy grass they live on until then, for harvest flavor of course.
I raise fish, thousands of tilapia and after graded they're quarantined in pure clean water and fed bushels of herbs, like dill, lemon chives, etc. next day harvest, are you fucking kidding me!! this rocks let me tell you. internal marinade !
I feed my plants what the need and let them use it up before harvest, like my outdoor gardens do.

its all about the flavors, all about the feed.

 

[greasemonkeymann]

I've heard that human urine can contain a lot of sodium. Probably depends on your diet. Also, I'm not sure if urea N is immediately available to the plant.
Not sure why people have a problem with urine. Hell, seabird guano is a mix of both pee and poop since birds combine them into the same stream. That's also why chicken shit is so hot -- lots of N.

i'd say the sodium content is alright, all depends on the diet anyways
I looked it up and the avg sodium contents per liter is one to four grams. A ML is 1000 grams, so it's roughly .1 to .4% sodium, so not even half of one percent.
Also its not to be used regularly, you only use it if you are sure it's a nitrogen def, maybe once a grow if that
It's more like an "emergency" type of thing
and considering that you are using a live organic media the urea is converted to ammonia/nitrates super fast anyways.
a nitrogen def will look better over night after a urine tea app
I've seen it a bunch, works like magic on an outside plant that can't keep up with the sun

 

[chemphlegm]

I used only my once daily pee and water for funs in the greenhouse. the plant did just ok through veg, and a little
less than ok through flower, wasnt very big, not very happy, not fully expressed but she did finish and I did smoke it.
it was just ok, and went to the bunnies.
Gotta try this again without taking vitamins, I bet the plant would crumble fold die.

 

[chemphlegm]

.....now that I dont drink beer/as much

 

[greasemonkeymann]

Anything added to the substrate can alter flavors guaranteed.
I dont like the smell of nitrogen fertilizer, evident on new city lawns, hydro ferts, etc. I've smelled my over fed flowers, they smell like fertilizer, if I ate them I bet they taste like fertilizer.(nitrogen?) the ones I grow in dirt, the ones we do eat actualy dont smell like this and certainly dont taste like it either.
My Advanced Nutrients pro mix buckets taste very different than my organic ones. both are superb, I'll stick with the organic every time.

I end my bunnies with a week of meals, like carrots, apples, not pissy grass they live on until then, for harvest flavor of course.
I raise fish, thousands of tilapia and after graded they're quarantined in pure clean water and fed bushels of herbs, like dill, lemon chives, etc. next day harvest, are you fucking kidding me!! this rocks let me tell you. internal marinade !
I feed my plants what the need and let them use it up before harvest, like my outdoor gardens do.

its all about the flavors, all about the feed.

I envy you my friend..
my goal is to have a closed loop system with tilapia aquaponics, my compost, the plants and the lettuce grown in the tanks.
free leaves/grass clippings for the compost, creating nutrients for my plants, creating redworms for the fish, creating waste for the plants, and so on.
all that while powering my lights via solar panels, and you could actually have a negative carbon impact on the environment
annnnd free food, fish food, nutrients and to a degree, free cannabis
badass man

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

yes without question , red and purple I heard of blue but question it , I don't believe this to be a question of hydro or soil , I think its more genetics but brought out by other factors like PH temp etc.

I agree. I have plants that show all 3 colors. They showed up in pro mix with mineral based nutes. And in ocean forest with pure Blend pro natural bottled nutes.

They come out more now that I have a 315 cmh but I saw them before with hps only.

It's genetics and a good Grow to bring them out. I am sure they would show up with water culture too.

The plants just grow. We are not triggering any magic responses as much as we like to pretend we are.

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

Quality is all about grower skill and genetics. Effective use of nutrients is a skill many growers have not mastered.
Hell I'm still learning...

I say it goes environment - grower - genetics in that order.

 

[chemphlegm]

I envy you my friend..
my goal is to have a closed loop system with tilapia aquaponics, my compost, the plants and the lettuce grown in the tanks.
free leaves/grass clippings for the compost, creating nutrients for my plants, creating redworms for the fish, creating waste for the plants, and so on.
all that while powering my lights via solar panels, and you could actually have a negative carbon impact on the environment
annnnd free food, fish food, nutrients and to a degree, free cannabis
badass man

I did marry the two for an awesome aquaculture experience but had to make a choice, am I growing fish or marijuana, and separated the two. If it was just for myself I'd be still doing it, but production requirements negate the hybridized system for me.

 

[SSGrower]

I used only my once daily pee and water for funs in the greenhouse. the plant did just ok through veg, and a little
less than ok through flower, wasnt very big, not very happy, not fully expressed but she did finish and I did smoke it.
it was just ok, and went to the bunnies.
Gotta try this again without taking vitamins, I bet the plant would crumble fold die.

I had to transplant one i tried it on, started root rot. May try fermented urine in future.

 

[southernguy99]

I say it goes environment - grower - genetics in that order.

I beg to differ not one of those 3 thing are more important then the other , there all equally the same and work off each other, your grow is only as good as your weakest link.

 

[southernguy99]

Anything added to the substrate can alter flavors guaranteed.
I dont like the smell of nitrogen fertilizer, evident on new city lawns, hydro ferts, etc. I've smelled my over fed flowers, they smell like fertilizer, if I ate them I bet they taste like fertilizer.(nitrogen?) the ones I grow in dirt, the ones we do eat actualy dont smell like this and certainly dont taste like it either.
My Advanced Nutrients pro mix buckets taste very different than my organic ones. both are superb, I'll stick with the organic every time.

I end my bunnies with a week of meals, like carrots, apples, not pissy grass they live on until then, for harvest flavor of course.
I raise fish, thousands of tilapia and after graded they're quarantined in pure clean water and fed bushels of herbs, like dill, lemon chives, etc. next day harvest, are you fucking kidding me!! this rocks let me tell you. internal marinade !
I feed my plants what the need and let them use it up before harvest, like my outdoor gardens do.

its all about the flavors, all about the feed.

So you proved 2 points ,whether something lives in water or in soil you can achieve a very flavorful product , but yet you assume thats not achievable running hydro.I will also suggest this something living in water will absorb and produce a much more concentrated flavor and much faster then something living in soil. its not the method of growing its lack of knowledge of the grower

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

I beg to differ not one of those 3 thing are more important then the other , there all equally the same and work off each other, your grow is only as good as your weakest link.

Yes ideally that is the goal but a bad grower with good environment and stable genetics has a better chance of getting results than any grower with an inhospitable environment.

 

[chemphlegm]

but yet you assume thats not achievable running hydro.r

where and when did you misunderstand a post i made and now believe I assume this?

I did say I loved me hydro, I said I never had any complaints when running my hydro for years. I said when running hydro for years and years I planted a bucket of pro mix and org ferts and my favs and made a decision that this was the way for me. I siad my hydro follies are packed in the rafters now, and my dirt buckets produce better herb than anyone I know has ever had. cant go wrong with that report added to my personal preferences for work habits, garden management, and yes, super duper full expressions effortlessly attained with nary an expensive bottle of anything, a lower electric bill, less humidity, no floods, no leaks, no chems

 

[Yodaweed]

where and when did you misunderstand a post i made and now believe I assume this?

I did say I loved me hydro, I said I never had any complaints when running my hydro for years. I said when running hydro for years and years I planted a bucket of pro mix and org ferts and my favs and made a decision that this was the way for me. I siad my hydro follies are packed in the rafters now, and my dirt buckets produce better herb than anyone I know has ever had. cant go wrong with that report added to my personal preferences for work habits, garden management, and yes, super duper full expressions effortlessly attained with nary an expensive bottle of anything, a lower electric bill, less humidity, no floods, no leaks, no chems

I'm in the same situation, got a whole hydroponics system just sitting in my garage, wish i had known sooner cause it wasn't a cheap system....also got a couple hundred dollars worth of old bottled nutrients collecting dust....I really could have saved myself some money looking back......

I also wasted a lot of money on LEDs .....sad panda

 

[greasemonkeymann]

I'm in the same situation, got a whole hydroponics system just sitting in my garage, wish i had known sooner cause it wasn't a cheap system....also got a couple hundred dollars worth of old bottled nutrients collecting dust....I really could have saved myself some money looking back......

I also wasted a lot of money on LEDs .....sad panda

funny thing is most organic growers are juuuust the same, with a grand's worth of random shit for hydro collecting dust

so I consider you a knowledgable and respected grower around here, and I am sorta considering an LED setup for my vege
any way you could elaborate on why your led choices were a waste of money?
I just may plop a good 700 bucks or so on a DIY setup with some 3590s and I'd reaaaally value/appreciate experienced opinions on all the pluses and minuses on it beforehand

I've been looking in to reducing my vege room's KWH, I am running roughly 500-600 watts an hr in it, was looking at replacing that with a good 6 cob 3590 setup

 

[throwdo]

I grow in dwc and was brought up in flood in drain iv grown in soil aswell and hydro just seems eazy to me when my soil plants lack

 

[Yodaweed]

funny thing is most organic growers are juuuust the same, with a grand's worth of random shit for hydro collecting dust

so I consider you a knowledgable and respected grower around here, and I am sorta considering an LED setup for my vege
any way you could elaborate on why your led choices were a waste of money?
I just may plop a good 700 bucks or so on a DIY setup with some 3590s and I'd reaaaally value/appreciate experienced opinions on all the pluses and minuses on it beforehand

I've been looking in to reducing my vege room's KWH, I am running roughly 500-600 watts an hr in it, was looking at replacing that with a good 6 cob 3590 setup

Back when i first bought LEDs they weren't what they are now, mostly crappy blurple panels back then that costed a fortune, nothing as good as what's out now but i'd still take my CMH over any DIY LED

The CMH also is a great veg light, the 4k bulb is the closest to the actual sun that i have ever used, it is true full spectrum with IR/UV/ and a very balanced spectral graph, the square wave technology really works well for grow lights since it evens the spectral distribution out. i also run some CXA2590's they work well and i been thinking about upgrading, also running cree XTE white/red those work great.

I'm also seeing more colors than ever using the CMH 4k bulb, it's almost like growing these plants under the sun, they are showing their true colors my white fire og is straight purp , crazy cause it usually only goes a little purple on the leaf edges , this time the leafs are straight purp.