Citizen CLU048-1216 DIY COB and hello

[Lighter404]

Turns out it wasn't an illuminated switch after all. I'll get around to putting that together a bit later. For now though, I finally got a hygrometer/thermometer for the tent. It's got a corded sensor but that only does temperature. It was 84F on the floor and 98F about 32 inches up at the lights. Humidity 40%. The room the tent is in is at 70F ambient air temperature. I've got a seedling that came up and looks healthy except that it hasn't grown in days. Five other seeds germinated and died. The first that broke soil died instantly from apparent light poisoning so I raised the light up about six inches. The others I think just dried out, my bad. So two plants now, one doing well and the other maybe not so much unless I'm just being impatient.

 

[NoFucks2Give]

using the light for both veg and flower

Veg and Flower? Is that an Urban Legend? I have never seen anything in plant physiology science that backs up the concept of veg and flower spectra. The science says the wavelength of an absorbed photon does not matter. The wavelength only comes into play with absorption and minimally quantum yield.

There are only four wavelengths that matter. 430, 465, 650, and 665nm. Everything between 500 and 600 is a waste of photons. That would be curves 2 and 3 on this graph for chlorophyll. Secondarily curve 3 for beta carotene carotenoids if you're growing carrots.

Curve 1, bacteriochlorophyll a; curve 2, chlorophyll a; curve 3, chlorophyll b; curve 4, phycoerythrobilin; curve 5, β-carotene.

And to narrow it down further. 445 (430-465) and 665nm.


Plants really do not care much about the wavelengths. They get a more excited from blue photons because shorter wavelengths have more energy.

The diagrams and info come from a 2014 authoritative graduate level textbook:
Plant Physiology and Development, Sixth Edition Taiz, Zeiger, Møller, Murphy

References

Book

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Zhu, X.-G., Long, S. P. and Ort, D. R. (2010) Improving photosynthetic efficiency for greater yield. Ann. Rev. Plant Biol. 61: 235–261.
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Nelson, N., and Ben-Shem, A. (2004) The complex architecture of oxygenic photosynthesis. Nat. Rev. Mol. Cell Biol. 5: 971–982.

Organization of Light-Absorbing Antenna Systems
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Green, B. R., and Parson, W. W., eds. (2003) Light-Harvesting Antennas in Photosynthesis. Kluwer Academic Publishers, Dordrecht, Netherlands.
Grossman, A. R., Bhaya, D., Apt, K. E., and Kehoe, D. M. (1995) Light-harvesting complexes in oxygenic photosynthesis: diversity, control, and evolution. Annu. Rev. Genet. 29: 231–288.
Liu, Z. F., Yan, H. C., Wang, K. B., Kuang, T. Y., Zhang, J. P., Gui, L. L., An, X. M., and Chang, W. R. (2004) Crystal structure of spinach major light harvesting complex at 2.72 Å resolution. Nature 428: 287–292.
Pullerits, T., and Sundström, V. (1996) Photosynthetic light-harvesting pigment-protein complexes: toward understanding how and why. Acc. Chem. Res. 29: 381–389.
Van Grondelle, R., Dekker, J. P., Gillbro, T., and Sundström, V. (1994) Energy transfer and trapping in photosynthesis. Biochim. Biophys. Acta 1187: 1–65.

Mechanisms of Electron Transport
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Baniulis, D., Yamashita, E., Zhang, H., Hasan, S. S., and Cramer, W. A. (200 Structure–function of the cytochrome b6f complex. Photochem. Photobiol. 84: 1349–1358.
Barber, J., Nield, N., Morris, E. P., and Hankamer, B. (1999) Subunit positioning in photosystem II revisited. Trends Biochem. Sci. 24: 43–45.
Ben-Shem, A., Frolow, F., and Nelson, N. (2003) Crystal structure of plant photosystem I. Nature 426: 630–635.
Blankenship, R. E., and Prince, R. C. (1985) Excited-state redox potentials and the Z scheme of photosynthesis. Trends Biochem. Sci. 10: 382–383.
Brudvig, G. W. (200 Water oxidation chemistry of photosystem II. Philos. Trans. R. Soc. Lond., B, Biol. Sci. 363: 1211–1219.
Buchanan, B. B., Gruissem, W., and Jones, R. L., eds. (2000) Biochemistry and Molecular Biology of Plants. American Society of Plant Physiologists, Rockville, MD.
Ferreira, K. N., Iverson, T. M., Maghlaoui, K., Barber, J., and Iwata, S. (2004) Architecture of the photosynthetic oxygen-evolving center. Science 303: 1831–1838.
Jordan, P., Fromme, P., Witt, H. T., Klukas, O., Saenger, W., and Krauss, N. (2001) Three-dimensional structure of cyanobacterial photosystem I at 2.5 Å resolution. Nature 411: 909–917.
Karplus, P. A., Daniels, M. J., and Herriott, J. R. (1991) Atomic structure of ferredoxin-NADP+ reductase: prototype for a structurally novel flavoenzyme family. Science 251: 60–66.
Kurisu, G., Zhang, H. M., Smith, J. L., and Cramer, W. A. (2003) Structure of cytochrome b6f complex of oxygenic photosynthesis: tuning the cavity. Science 302: 1009–1014.
Nelson, N., and Ben-Shem, A. (2004) The complex architecture of oxygenic photosynthesis. Nat. Rev. Mol. Cell Biol. 5: 971–982.
Okamura, M. Y., Paddock, M. L., Graige, M. S., and Feher, G. (2000) Proton and electron transfer in bacterial reaction centers. Biochim. Biophys. Acta 1458: 148–163.
Stroebel, D., Choquet, Y., Popot, J. L., and Picot, D. (2003) An atypical heme in the cytochrome b6f complex. Nature 426: 413–418.
Umena, Y., Kawakami, K., Shen, J.-R., and Kamiya, N. (2011) Crystal structure of oxygen-evolving photosystem II at a resolution of 1.9 Å. Nature 473: 55–60.
Yano, J., Kern, J., Sauer, K., Latimer, M., Pushkar, Y., Biesiadka, J., Loll, B., Saenger, W., Messinger, J., Zouni, A., et al. (2006) Where water is oxidized to dioxygen: structure of the photosynthetic Mn4Ca cluster. Science 314: 821–825.
Proton Transport and ATP Synthesis in the Chloroplast
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Jagendorf, A. T. (1967) Acid-based transitions and phosphorylation by chloroplasts. Fed. Proc. Am. Soc. Exp. Biol. 26: 1361–1369.
Seelert, H., Poetsch, A., Dencher, N. A., Engel, A., Stahlberg, H., and Muller, D. J. (2000) Structural biology: proton-powered turbine of a plant motor. Nature 405: 418–419.
Stock, D., Leslie, A. G. W., and Walker, J. E. (1999) Molecular architecture of the rotary motor in ATP synthase. Science 286: 1700–1705.
Yasuda, R., Noji, H., Yoshida, M., Kinosita, K., and Itoh, H. (2001) Resolution of distinct rotational substeps by submillisecond kinetic analysis of F1-ATPase. Nature 410: 898–904.


Genetics, Assembly, and Evolution of Photosynthetic Systems
Allen, J. F. (2005) A redox switch hypothesis for the origin of two light reactions in photosynthesis. FEBS Lett. 579: 963–968.
Beale, S. I. (1999) Enzymes of chlorophyll biosynthesis. Photosyn. Res. 60: 43–73.
Blankenship, R. E., and Hartman, H. (199 The origin and evolution of oxygenic photosynthesis. Trends Biochem. Sci. 23: 94–97.
Cavalier-Smith, T. (2000) Membrane heredity and early chloroplast evolution. Trends Plant Sci. 5: 174–182.
Celedon, J. M. and Cline, K. (2013) Intra-plastid protein trafficking: how plant cells adapted prokaryotic mechanisms to the eukaryotic condition. Biochim. Biophys. Acta 1833: 341–351.
Chi, W., Sun, X., and Zhang, L. (2013) Intracellular signaling from plastid to nucleus. Annu. Rev. Plant Biol. 64: 559–582.
Eberhard, S., Finazzi, G., and Wollman, F. A. (200 The dynamics of photosynthesis. Annu. Rev. Genet. 17: 463–515.
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Takamiya, K.-I., Tsuchiya, T., and Ohta, H. (2000) Degradation pathway(s) of chlorophyll: What has gene cloning revealed? Trends Plant Sci. 5: 426–431.
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[Lighter404]

Hot damn that's the most citation I've seen in a post! Thanks for your in-depth response. Shit now I feel compelled to cite my reasoning haha but I was just going off what I'd heard. It is my first grow after all. I'd initially been looking into T5s. That's interesting though. I guess it's all been a conspiracy to sell more lightbulbs... Maybe the Illuminati?

 

[CobKits]

blue light still shortens internodes
far red still lengthens internodes

so its a simplification that plants dont care about wavelength

 

[NoFucks2Give]

I guess it's all been a conspiracy to sell more lightbulbs..

I believe the origins of the myth came from the LED grow light charlatans.

If I were choosing a CoB for a grow light, I'd go with the Vero Décor Series 1750K 97CRI. It is one of the few CoBs that reaches the Deep Red. Its red peak is 635nm. Citizen has a 2700K 97 CRI but it has more inefficient green than Vero. The Luxeon Fresh Focus Red Meat CoB 2200K is very slightly better than the Vero as it peaks at 643nm but costs more than Vero.

 

[NoFucks2Give]

blue light still shortens internodes
far red still lengthens internodes

That has nothing to do with photosynthesis. Those are mediated photomorphogenesis responses related to phytochrome.
The blue light elongation is most sensitive as a seedling. There the best light combination is blue and yellow. Yellow prevents the far red reversal.

There are several ways to experimentally separate a reduction in elongation rates mediated by phytochrome from a reduction mediated by a specific blue-light response. If lettuce seedlings are given low fluence rates of blue light under a strong background of yellow light, their hypocotyl elongation rate is reduced by more than 50%. The back-ground yellow light establishes a well-defined Prfr ratio - Plant Physiology and Development​

 

[nfhiggs]

Veg and Flower? Is that an Urban Legend? I have never seen anything in plant physiology science that backs up the concept of veg and flower spectra. The science says the wavelength of an absorbed photon does not matter. The wavelength only comes into play with absorption and minimally quantum yield.

There are only four wavelengths that matter. 430, 465, 650, and 665nm. Everything between 500 and 600 is a waste of photons. That would be curves 2 and 3 on this graph for chlorophyll. Secondarily curve 3 for beta carotene carotenoids if you're growing carrots.
View attachment 3957424
Curve 1, bacteriochlorophyll a; curve 2, chlorophyll a; curve 3, chlorophyll b; curve 4, phycoerythrobilin; curve 5, β-carotene.

And to narrow it down further. 445 (430-465) and 665nm.
View attachment 3957423

Plants really do not care much about the wavelengths. They get a more excited from blue photons because shorter wavelengths have more energy.

The diagrams and info come from a 2014 authoritative graduate level textbook:
Plant Physiology and Development, Sixth Edition Taiz, Zeiger, Møller, Murphy

I'm confused - first you say "only four wavelengths matter", then in practically the same breath you say "plants don't care much about the wavelengths". Either they do or they don't - which is it?

 

[NoFucks2Give]

which is it?

For your own electrical efficiency the four wavelengths. The plants do care they just want to get enough and don't care how much you pay. So the plants don't care so you should supply the most efficient photons that cost the least. That would be 660 deep red and 450 deep blue.

 

[RandomHero8913]

You heard it here first! Pack it up boys, these white COBs/LEDs have been a waste of time. Back to Blurple.

 

[Organic Miner]

You heard it here first! Pack it up boys, these white COBs/LEDs have been a waste of time. Back to Blurple.

Guess I should pull my Mars 1600 out of moth balls! Throw these pos citizens away.

 

[Lighter404]

My plant has survived damn near everything so far. If you don't consider how long it's been vegging it looks phenomenal. It definitely likes the 1216s more than the natural sunlight it was fed when it lived next to the window for a month and a half. I topped it way too early I think. Dozens of things have stunted the plant but she looks happy and if she's happy I'm happy. She's only about 5 inches tall, 9ish in diameter though. And this is a sativa... This is mostly because I've been aggressively LSTing her by keeping her three main growth points tied down so I can make more space between them. This backfired though because it made a ton more branches grow. So now it's very, very densely foliated with very very tight node spacing and I'm going to let it grow vertical until it's tall enough to scrog. I'll post some pictures when I can figure out how to remove metadata from the pics on my phone.

 

[WantsToBuildCheapCOB]

My plant has survived damn near everything so far. If you don't consider how long it's been vegging it looks phenomenal. It definitely likes the 1216s more than the natural sunlight it was fed when it lived next to the window for a month and a half. I topped it way too early I think. Dozens of things have stunted the plant but she looks happy and if she's happy I'm happy. She's only about 5 inches tall, 9ish in diameter though. And this is a sativa... This is mostly because I've been aggressively LSTing her by keeping her three main growth points tied down so I can make more space between them. This backfired though because it made a ton more branches grow. So now it's very, very densely foliated with very very tight node spacing and I'm going to let it grow vertical until it's tall enough to scrog. I'll post some pictures when I can figure out how to remove metadata from the pics on my phone.

Imgur removes meta data, but you can turn off geo-tagging to be safe

 

[NoFucks2Give]

Guess I should pull my Mars 1600 out of moth balls!

Mars??? No wonder you prefer anything else. I am not saying white does not do an adequate job. I'm saying there are other options. If designed correctly a Blue Red fixture does very well with much less electricity. CoBs by their nature are power hungry and have poor uniformity when hung close to the canopy. When I use a white grow light, it is with white LEDs, not CoBs. The LEDs spread out with good thermal management, excellent uniformity, and a dimmer. The I can put the fixture very close to the canopy and adjust the intensity. I find phosphor and excessive heat to be too inefficient. I would not criticize anyone for having a different opinion even when they are wrong.

But Mars? I would be ashamed to admit I fell for their sales pitch.

 

[Lighter404]

OK let's see if I can make this work.

 

[Swims_GD]

anybody else skip post 22?? just saying

 

[Swims_GD]

You heard it here first! Pack it up boys, these white COBs/LEDs have been a waste of time. Back to Blurple.

the past 10-15 years of research right down the drain.... pmsl

funny i tried them mars purple leds and went straight back to hid... sold them to another newbie led man at retail price as he 'thought' they was the bee's knee's.

 

[Swims_GD]

Mars??? No wonder you prefer anything else. I am not saying white does not do an adequate job. I'm saying there are other options. If designed correctly a Blue Red fixture does very well with much less electricity. CoBs by their nature are power hungry and have poor uniformity when hung close to the canopy. When I use a white grow light, it is with white LEDs, not CoBs. The LEDs spread out with good thermal management, excellent uniformity, and a dimmer. The I can put the fixture very close to the canopy and adjust the intensity. I find phosphor and excessive heat to be too inefficient. I would not criticize anyone for having a different opinion even when they are wrong.

But Mars? I would be ashamed to admit I fell for their sales pitch.

not ashamed... i got my money back... they are probably in the bin now.

 

[Organic Miner]

the past 10-15 years of research right down the drain.... pmsl

funny i tried them mars purple leds and went straight back to hid... sold them to another newbie led man at retail price as he 'thought' they was the bee's knee's.

I had several good grows with them (1gpw), but then learned about cobs and sold all my Mars units. It was a learning experience, and I almost broke even on the resale. So all in all I'm not ashamed.

 

[Lighter404]

So anyhow, things are going well here. I've constructed a scrog screen. The plant is about 7 inches tall, a foot wide. It still has about 5 inches to get to the screen. I'm starting to get leaves with nine points now, which is cool.
A few of the leaf tips turned yellow and then brown. It happened very quickly all at once and hasn't happened since.
The soil doesn't drain well. I didn't add anything for aeration, it's just Coast of Maine Organic soil and apart from needing some more perlite I like it. Next time won't be anything like it, as I plan to make some kind of super soil.
In this grow I've occasionally watered with a diluted quantity of worm tea and once this last time I added kelp meal via a tea. The yellowing happened before the kelp tea. I'll just be using water for a while now.

 

[NoFucks2Give]

i tried them mars purple leds and went straight back to hid.

Given the following is true, white LEDs are much less efficient than deep blue and deep red.
- Plans utilize deep blue (450nm) and deep red (660nm) more efficiently than wavelengths in the 470-630nm range.
- Deep blue and deep red are the LEDs with the greatest efficacy.
- Deep red has more photons per watt.
- Deep blue has the better efficacy than deep red and all other LEDs.
- Deep blue has more energy per photon.
- Green LEDs have an efficacy below 10%.
- Phosphor pushed green are nearly non-existent and has less efficacy than direct green LEDs.
- White LEDs have a lot of green.
- White LEDs have little to no deep red.
- Plants do not care about the wavelength of a photon.

Cheap shitty grow lights, like Mars, are not representative of a quality grow fixture. Blue (470nm) and red (625 nm) Epistar LEDs are inferior LEDs, Cramming a bunch of LEDs in a little box gives poor uniformity and coverage area. Driving strings of LEDs in parallel is inefficient and gives poor uniformity. Shitty LED drivers and poor thermal management is inefficient.

A well designed grow fixture with dimming will have excellent uniformity allowing the fixture to be positioned close to the canopy. The dimming will allow the fixture to be run at optimum efficiency for the distance between the canopy and fixture.

Just because you had a bad experience with a shitty blue red grow light does not mean all blue red fixtures are good for shit.

A CoB can do a much better job than a shitty Mars grow light. CoBs are ideal for a DIY fixture. A CoB light bar is superior to CoBs crammed in a box. CoBs are better than many grow lights but CoBs are NOT the ideal light source for growing plants.