Rasta Roy
Well-Known Member
I think we had a miscommunication somewhere friend! Langbeinite was what I had mentioned, it contains no P! Just K, mag, and sulfur K2Mg2(SO4)3.
Muriate of Potash (potassium chloride) - NPK 0-0-60
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Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
No-no! I was with ya Roy!
Twas a "just say'in" moment.....
I use FUL - HUMIX so I skip the Lang and prefer the k2SO4 for the S as a source for both...
We all do things differently, and yet, reach the same goals (or try)
hillbill
Well-Known Member
With organics I prefer to have relatively small amounts of specific nutrients from several sources which I hope provide an ample solid supply over 2 or 3 months. I reuse my soil and currently run 20% or so in new mixes. Also ran about 80% used last winter with good results. I also add fewer mineral type amendments when reusing, especially at higher percentages.
Chunky Stool
Well-Known Member
Yes, the plant regulates organic P uptake. Should I post Harley's video again?
I'd be willing to bet the overdoses you've see are from adding soluble P.
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
True, that's the bulk of what you see around here
Yet, I saw my neighbor use REV's SS and he had early yellowing and high P problems....High bone meal use....I've seen high P problems from plenty of overage applications of "organic" forms of P........ Add to much and have a problem - period!
As far as internet Harley? He's missing something... a brain maybe?
The plant can only regulate so much.....fact. As an organic farmer. I have to be careful on how much P content I lay down....
WSU - pdf - read it!
https://puyallup.wsu.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/403/2015/03/bonemeal.pdf
Bonemeal is not a soluble form of P.......
As for Mpp = Monopotassium phosphate, MKP KH2PO4, is a soluble salt of potassium! So that's worse!
Other reading of direct interest.
Links 1 and 3 are full papers and they're unlocked, so you can read the whole and not just the abstract!
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep17835
https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/nrcs142p2_053254.pdf
https://cmbl.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s11658-016-0008-y
There is a book that covers P use and regulation by the plant...For the life of me I can't remember it.....Stupid part is I remember that chapter 6 - pages 135 and 136 deal directly on the subject.......Plant biology book - I'll see if the wife remembers it, and if I have a copy - if so I'll scan those and post it......
Chunky Stool
Well-Known Member
The WSU article you posted confirmed what Harley Smith said in his video. Now don't you feel silly...
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
NO!
Nowhere in that article, did it state that P was self regulated - to the point of not being able to cause plant problems.
You can over do P in organics - period. You will get the same early "yellow out" as from "synthetic" P over use!
Get that straight.
The ions delivered to the plant for nutrition. Are the same in the end. Organic or synthetic. As for P, the plant can regulate only so much. It can "store" only so much. The plant will have the same high P results with over dosing your soil with too much P. might take a little longer but, I've seen cases that have been the same as synthetic too...some worse!
How do you explain that?
You can over do P in organic soil - period! The plant will attempt to regulate the P and at some point it can't keep up any more.
I like extra K for what I'm working towards.....The plant will tolerate more K, better. The more P, far better chance of early problems.
Like the WSU article said. Over use of P, comes with an added cost to the plant.
What I'm saying in the end is this - Yes, our plant does regulate P uptake. In this Harley is correct. The over use of P in soil will, at some point, create the same problems as synthetic P overage..... If Harley didn't tell you that - He's made an error! If Harley say's that Cannabis will not get a high P condition from high P organic sourced soil. He's flat out wrong!
I suspect you've drawn the wrong conclusion on your own!
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cindysid
Well-Known Member
How much Manganese sulfate per gal of soil?
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
Ah, this is hard to say. It gets technical here. You test your soil or get it tested and look at the ppm counts of Fe and Mn.
You adjust from there and remember that you move the Mn up in steps to just about match the Fe (or both as needed)
Here's a pic of Tweeter's soil report - post adjustments. This is your goal zone = 100ppm of each, his overage is OK.
Here's a link to understanding soil test reports - it gives amounts in lbs per acre to use.....
It's been said that you might consider raising Mn levels in soil my only 20ppm at a time....... I get the idea so it's not over done..
One might try adding 1/4 tsp to a gallon of water (that you have a ppm value to) and test the ppm of that for the change. Use it to wet a cft of soil and retest the soil. You now have the knowing of how much it effects the soil ppm. That is now your key to how much to use in that water to effect the proper adjustment in the soil.
Keep in mind that Your local USDA field office should offer cheap soil testing.....Otherwise ask your local college (helps to know folks in the AG dept.) Otherwise a quick net search should list some close to you....
That help?
Chunky Stool
Well-Known Member
Read it again.
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
Chunky Stool
Well-Known Member
Whatever man.
If I say you've never been wrong about anything, will you let it go?
Do you even remember how this started?
Too much P in Langbeininte...
If I say you've never been wrong about anything, will you let it go?
Do you even remember how this started?
Too much P in Langbeininte...
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
Ah, this is hard to say. It gets technical here. You test your soil or get it tested and look at the ppm counts of Fe and Mn.
You adjust from there and remember that you move the Mn up in steps to just about match the Fe (or both as needed)
Here's a pic of Tweeter's soil report - post adjustments. This is your goal zone = 100ppm of each, his overage is OK.
Here's a link to understanding soil test reports - it gives amounts in lbs per acre to use.....
It's been said that you might consider raising Mn levels in soil my only 20ppm at a time....... I get the idea so it's not over done..
One might try adding 1/4 tsp to a gallon of water (that you have a ppm value to) and test the ppm of that for the change. Use it to wet a cft of soil and retest the soil. You now have the knowing of how much it effects the soil ppm. That is now your key to how much to use in that water to effect the proper adjustment in the soil.
Keep in mind that Your local USDA field office should offer cheap soil testing.....Otherwise ask your local college (helps to know folks in the AG dept.) Otherwise a quick net search should list some close to you....
That help?
OOPSY....
How to read a soil report - This my organic farming site one.
https://www.no-tillfarmer.com/articles/6147-how-to-read-a-soil-test-report
Here is my MSU extension office home/comsumer soil testing page - the link for reading that test is in the page.
http://www.msusoiltest.com/
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
Blinded by the light.
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
Gaa, your right.....I'm getting to old for this - lol I missed the whole train and was thinking about something else....
Due to this comment -
I was attempting to inform readers that you can overuse P in organic's. Yes, the plant regulates P uptake. But, only to a point. It can, and does, get P tox in organic's if supplied too much in the soil......
Someone also said MPP use. MPP is not organic and not for use in organics - you knew that already.
#1: Sol-po-mag = Me bad.....
#2: It's not that hard......The type applied and it's speed of release does effect the situation.
#3: Plant can regulate P uptake = You right
#4: Plant can OD on organic P = Me right
Now we all understand and get along? Not scolding, arguing or diss'ing you.... Simply including the rest of the story..
We're both right........although I did screw the Sol-po-mag pooch - crash and burn that one...
BobCajun
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't use bone meal, it's full of crud. Very high fluoride and also contains heavy metals etc. It's just a bad idea. Maybe if there were no other sources of calcium/phosphate but there are. I know bone meal sounds all organicy but the reality is that livestock bones accumulate shit. The smell of it alone should dissuade you from using it.
hillbill
Well-Known Member
Fish Bone Meal 6-20-0. One year out from using Indonesian bat guano 0-7-0 for P. If anything, fbm is working better. The guano I used for about 6 years was claimed to be from ancient inactive caves. It is definitely fossilized. Another one I use is steamed porcine bone meal 6-8-0. Mixed in my soil, I do not run extreme amounts of phosphorus.
Fish bone meal will stink a little when first mixed so be prepared. After a week you don't even know it's there.
Fish bone meal will stink a little when first mixed so be prepared. After a week you don't even know it's there.
BobCajun
Well-Known Member
Oh, fish bone, didn't think of that. Probably just mercury in that. Didn't investigate it, just seems possible. My guess is that simple rock phosphate is probably better, though I know it also has some crud. See this is why I just use hydro nutes. Pretty much pure chemicals. Way cleaner than anything organic I know of for phosphorus. Basically, could just buy some food grade phosphoric acid and mix it with potassium hydroxide or carbonate, if you don't like commercial monopotassium phosphate. Bones are not better just because they're called bones instead of calcium phosphate. For that matter you could actually buy pure calcium phosphate. Of course I don't even use soil, because it's not a very good grow medium. Plenty of way better alternatives.
Chunky Stool
Well-Known Member
Jesus H Christ, not another heavy metal warning! Dammit. That's why I quit using feather meal...
I use fish bone.
What do you prefer? Guano? Soft rock phosphate?