CRI test and Mcree weighted results

nfhiggs

Well-Known Member
But you did not do the math. You talk about wall watts in, yet nothing about radiant watts out, thermal watts out, or quantum efficiency.

So you think 200 lm/W is high efficiency for green? It's twice as good as what is currently being sold. What is done in the lab is one thing. What is economically feasible to mass produce is another. Currently the green LEDs being sold by Cree, Lumileds, and OSRAM are native green, not phosphor. While some green phosphors may be more efficient at producing photons, they are not yet economically viable for mono LEDs. White LEDs have to use green phosphors.

The only common mono LED color being sold is PC Amber. I have never seen a PC green LED.

Can we agree that a direct narrow band deep red and deep blue are more efficient than a phosphor pushed red and blue? Deep blue is the no brainier because they are used in white LEDs except covered with phosphor. The white paper I posted from Lumileds says direct red is more efficient than red phosphor. With red it's a matter of economics whether to use mix technology where a direct red produces superior CRI with phosphor blue and green vs. RGB phosphor.


So if we were to make a grow light using mono RGB that produce 5 µMoles each of red, green and blue. How efficient would that be? It will be more efficient than a phosphor pushed RGB, correct?

The efficiency 36.6% using the most efficient Red Green and Blue LEDs on the market calculated at their Maximum rated output run at their most efficient current at an unrealistic 25° C.

And that is why I do not believe a CoB is 60% efficient.

Let's do the "simple maths"

Currently the most efficient on the market

Cree XP-G3 Royal Blue .730 radiant Watts @ 350mA 2.82V,
Cree XPE green 113 lm/W @ 350mA 3.2V,
OSRAM Olsen SSL Hyper Red .530 radiant Watts @ 350mA 2.15V

To produce 5 µmol each of RGB we will need 2 blue 1.8W, 5 green 5.7W, and 2 red 1.7W.
Datasheets attached so you can check the "simple maths".

The column lm/W is the number of lumens required for 1 Watt radiant flux.
The column µmol/W is the number of µMoles in one watt radiant flux at that wavelength.
flux is in watts

View attachment 3966939
You seem to be a broken record, stuck on Mono/RGB. Cobs do not use RGB emitters, and that's the fly in your ointment.

There is a reason manufacturers do not use RGB emitters to make white light - as you just demonstrated, its just not efficient. Instead, they use highly efficient Royal Blues and phosphor coatings to convert a portion of those efficient blue photons to red, orange, yellow and green photons. So in fact, two thirds of your table simply does not apply when talking about COB efficiency, because there are no green or red emitters in a cob. You're simply trying to compare apples to oranges, and declaring 60% COB efficiency to be impossible based on the efficiency of RGB monos.

If you want to determine the potential efficiency of a white light COB, you need to look at the efficiency of its emitters, and subtract the Stokes shift losses for the converted photons. OK, now lets look at your table again - by your numbers in the last two columns, the Stokes loss can be deduced from the Radiant flux difference between the Blue/Green and the Blue/Red - And since ALL photons created by the royal blue emitters cost the same amount of energy to produce, the wall watts column for blue, green and red photons should be the same - 1.82W. The total wall watts for a white light COB with equal amounts of red, green, and blue photons (5 uMoles of each) is only 5.42W, not 9.24W. Now divide the total radiant watts by the total wall watts (3.38/5.42) and we get - 62.3%. All you have proved is that COBs are inherently more efficient than R+G+B white light.

Suddenly that 60% efficient COB looks quite reasonable, using your own numbers applied correctly and logically. It is simply not logical to try to make deductions about COB efficiency, by looking at RBG mono efficiencies.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
You seem to be a broken record, stuck on Mono/RGB. Cobs do not use RGB emitters, and that's the fly in your ointment.

There is a reason manufacturers do not use RGB emitters to make white light - as you just demonstrated, its just not efficient. Instead, they use highly efficient Royal Blues and phosphor coatings to convert a portion of those efficient blue photons to red, orange, yellow and green photons. So in fact, two thirds of your table simply does not apply when talking about COB efficiency, because there are no green or red emitters in a cob. You're simply trying to compare apples to oranges, and declaring 60% COB efficiency to be impossible based on the efficiency of RGB monos.

If you want to determine the potential efficiency of a white light COB, you need to look at the efficiency of its emitters, and subtract the Stokes shift losses for the converted photons. OK, now lets look at your table again - by your numbers in the last two columns, the Stokes loss can be deduced from the Radiant flux difference between the Blue/Green and the Blue/Red - And since ALL photons created by the royal blue emitters cost the same amount of energy to produce, the wall watts column for blue, green and red photons should be the same - 1.82W. The total wall watts for a white light COB with equal amounts of red, green, and blue photons (5 uMoles of each) is only 5.42W, not 9.24W. Now divide the total radiant watts by the total wall watts (3.38/5.42) and we get - 62.3%. All you have proved is that COBs are inherently more efficient than R+G+B white light.

Suddenly that 60% efficient COB looks quite reasonable, using your own numbers applied correctly and logically. It is simply not logical to try to make deductions about COB efficiency, by looking at RBG mono efficiencies.
And there's even more than one way to skin that 60% cat; I built a bunch of water cooled COB LED light fixtures and ran chilled water as cold as 55F through them. Doing this, I was able to hit 60% chip efficiency with Cree 3590 3500K 80CRI CD bin chips driven at 56W.

It worked so well that the growing space never warmed up.
 

Photon Flinger

Well-Known Member
Sorry all but the university student has some very valid points.

First and foremost, the assumption being luminous efficiency equals radiant efficiency is the underpinning of all these numbers. Unfortunately there is nothing from the manufacturers to back that up and it is much more likely that the two are mutually exclusive of one another. That there is where the fundamental flaw is - that rest of the calculations being based on this will be significantly off and pretty much useless.

What we are actually looking for is radiant energy (intensity from the source and flux at the leaf) and that information needs to come from the manufacturers. An actual better way to determine efficiency is measure the heat conducted into the heat sink at a stable ambient to determine how much of the input power is wasted at generation. Also keep in mind that light when it hits something has some of its energy converted into heat.

Long and short, efficiency of LEDs for growing purposes is more accurately determined by measuring the waste heat at source generation rather than using the manufacturers' lm/w data.
 

nfhiggs

Well-Known Member
Sorry all but the university student has some very valid points.

First and foremost, the assumption being luminous efficiency equals radiant efficiency is the underpinning of all these numbers. Unfortunately there is nothing from the manufacturers to back that up and it is much more likely that the two are mutually exclusive of one another. That there is where the fundamental flaw is - that rest of the calculations being based on this will be significantly off and pretty much useless.

What we are actually looking for is radiant energy (intensity from the source and flux at the leaf) and that information needs to come from the manufacturers. An actual better way to determine efficiency is measure the heat conducted into the heat sink at a stable ambient to determine how much of the input power is wasted at generation. Also keep in mind that light when it hits something has some of its energy converted into heat.

Long and short, efficiency of LEDs for growing purposes is more accurately determined by measuring the waste heat at source generation rather than using the manufacturers' lm/w data.
The use of lumens are by the manufacturer are irrelevant to the logical fallacy I pointed out.. I never mentioned lumens in my analysis. I was going strictly by uMoles (5 uMoles each of R, G, and B) produced, the radiant wattage of said uMoles, the energy required to produce the 15 uMoles initially, and the Stokes shift energy loss. Lumens never even came into play.
 

nfhiggs

Well-Known Member
The use of lumens are by the manufacturer are irrelevant to the logical fallacy I pointed out.. I never mentioned lumens in my analysis. I was going strictly by uMoles (5 uMoles each of R, G, and B) produced, the radiant wattage of said uMoles, the energy required to produce the 15 uMoles initially, and the Stokes shift energy loss. Lumens never even came into play.
And I would point out that Nofucks actually gave radiant watts (presumably from the manufacturers data sheets) for the red and blue, and converted the lumen value of the green to radiant watts. So we're already looking at radiant watts in his example, not Lumens.
 

Rahz

Well-Known Member
First and foremost, the assumption being luminous efficiency equals radiant efficiency is the underpinning of all these numbers.
One of the figures in the spreadsheet @alesh provided is LER (luminous efficacy of radiation). That tells us how many lumens are in one radiant watt of a particular spectrum. If you also know the lumens per watt of a particular sample you can use that data to make a pretty accurate assessment of radiant efficiency.
 

NoFucks2Give

Well-Known Member
You seem to be a broken record, stuck on Mono/RGB. Cobs do not use RGB emitters, and that's the fly in your ointment.
I am NOT stuck on mono LEDs it's that they are more efficient than CoBs. And they are much more flexible. I have dimmers on each wavelength and can tune my own CCT and CRI or light recipe. I design LED fixtures for the University of Florida Horticulture Department. I have been doing electrical engineering for over 40 years now. My expertise was designing integrated circuits for data communications. I designed the first PC Ethernet board for IBM I did the original MAC layer chips for GE's Token Bus and IBM's Token Ring. The point being I know how a CoB is made. And a CoB is not just LED dies wire bonded. They are made on a wafer and the chip is cut from the wafer. I would guess they include load balancing transistors as well for the parallel strings. Some internal connections appear to have some sort of wire bonding in some electron microscope photos I have seen. Silicon connections may have more resistance. But I am just guessing. The best source for how they are made is the patent office.

And LED Engines still makes CoBs with RGB emitters. They have some new ones especially for horticulture. A little pricey but each color can be individually tuned. I attached an older brochure. They are kinda cool.

It was not that long ago (2005) most white LEDs were RGB emitters when phosphor was still very inefficient.

Suddenly that 60% efficient COB looks quite reasonable,
I get that.
But not true yet. You have the efficiency of the wavelength conversion, and you have the quantum efficiency of phosphors (blocking the photons). An LED only has the the internal quantum efficiency. Not getting into the efficiency of the semiconductor materials. Designing an internal architecture that gets the photons that are generated to exit the LED (internal quantum efficiency) is the key, more so than the materials. The CoB's phosphor is one more layer that adds inefficiency. In theory the phosphor converters can do better than 100% efficiency. Just not yet. May be very close. On Digikey there are some Lumis CoBs where in the index it says 357 lm/W for a 5000K and 6500K . The 2700K are 275 lm/W. They are very new and I have not been able to find any one with them in stock yet. That was exciting to see. But it may be a typo. The datasheets say 186 lm/W 5000KI 70CRI and 146 lm/W 300)K 80 CRI. But what I like about then is the red peak is at 625 and 650 is at 90%.

LumisCLM-9Gen3-PAR-SPD.jpg

But then Lumiled should be releasing their quantum dot any day now. In mid May they said the next few month:
https://www.led-professional.com/technology/light-generation/narrow-emission-qds-improve-warm-white-led-performance-and-improve-color-rendering

My model was less efficient because I used deep red and deep blue. Had I used blue and red the luminous efficiency would have been much better.

I am not the least bit interested in luminous or radiant. I am only interested in quantum. I am not interest in Luminous/Radiant Flux or lux or W/m². I am only interested in Quantum Intensity.

I have some CoBs I can measure the luminous, radiant, and quantum intensity and get back to you with the results. The only one I did lux, µMoles, and radiant watts was the Luxeon Fresh Focus Red Meat when the luminous intensity was 43,590 lm/m², 1000 µmol/m²/s, and 20 W/m²

In general the white LEDs are still more efficient. LEDs are at about 200 lm/W and CoBs about 150 lm/W.

This is most of what I have, the Citizen contacts beak off very easily I have two broken and two that have not broken yet.
I do not use CoBs to grow. I use them to generate heat for thermal management experiments.
Cree 2700K 90 CRI CXA1304-0000-000C0Y9227G
Luxeon Crisp White L2C5-30901202E06C0
Lumis CLM-9-27-90-36-AC30-F4-3
Luxeon Core HD L2C5-27901204E0900
CLU028-1204C4-273H7K4
CLU028-1204C4-303M2K1
Vero Decor 1750K 97CRI

The model of the 3 mono LEDs was step one. I have another that shows why Alesh's spreadsheet has issues. Serious issues. Maybe it would be best if you pretend I just may know what I am doing. My take so far no one on this site fully understands the spreadsheet. I do not have enough time to squabble with you guys. I am only trying to help. I am humored when I am accused of not know what the fuck I am doing. Possibly I will soon be able to explain precisely why I believe there is a problem with the spreadsheet. I knew before I created my profile this was going to happen that is why I have the name. I will not be intimidated. I suspect there were others that saw the same issues as me but were run off by the CoB Snob Bullies.
 

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jane621

Member
These tests were conducted with Citizen 1825s but results should be similar for other brands with similar SPDs. The SQ-520 was used for measurements, and while it's the best low cost solution at the moment there's still a difference between the reading and the reality. Those differences were not factored in for this test but it should still provide a good idea of the differences in output based on phosphor coating, and hopefully an idea of how plants will react to particular spectrums within the test range based on the Mcree data.

4 chips were placed in a 12" square and placed approximately 18 inches from the sensor. Total system wattage was identical through all results.

Preliminary PAR test results
3000K70CRI 950
3500K80CRI 921
3000K80CRI 905
3000K90CRI 856
2700K90CRI 780

The 3000K 70CRI chips are putting out the highest PAR numbers, followed closely by 3500/80. At the bottom of the list we have 2700K emitting substantially less photons than the winner.

But if the Mcree curve describes the absorption chance of a photon at a specific frequency we can weigh the results and hopefully get a more accurate gauge of the chips photosynthetic potential. The following information is based on an interpretation of the Mcree chart. In that study there were 6-7 test samples that had roughly the same shape with minor and symmetrical variations. The rest of the samples were thrown out. The SPDs of each K/CRI combination were digitized along with the Mcree data. Each 5nm range is given a percentage of total output value which is multiplied by the Mcree data(percentage change for absorption of a photon). The average absorption rate of each spectrum is multiplied by the par reading to get what hopefully will be the total PAR absorption for the spectrums.

Conversion factors for plant response from 400-700nm. These numbers represent the absorption rate of each spectrum.
3000K/70CRI 78.034
3000K/80CRI 78.229
3500K/80CRI 76.566
2700K/90CRI 80.460
3000K/90CRI 78.355

2700K/90CRI has the best chance of being absorbed by the plants which was expected, but surprisingly the rest aren't far behind and 3500K/80CRI is coming in last.

Here are the Par values multiplied by the conversion factor.
3000K/70CRI 741
3000K/80CRI 708
3500K/80CRI 705
2700K/90CRI 627
3000K/90CRI 670

In this final result we see the 3000K/70CRI sample staying in the lead. Could it be that 3000K/70CRI produces the most photosynthesis?

Observations: In removing several Mcree test subjects as anomalies the slight hump in blue was subdued. Had I used a more comprehensive average the 3500K/80CRI and 3000K/90CRI would show slight gains but I wouldn't guess they would match the winning figure. I may go back and use new values with a more strict interpretation of the Mcree curve to find out how much of an effect it would have. Regardless of that issue 2700K/90CRI it seems is the loser who's superior spectrum just can't make up for the phosphor induced output deficiency... but it must also be considered that the sensor is placing a penalty on the high CRI samples, both 2700 and 3000K. Anyway, results were surprising to me, both spectrum absorption rates and final results. Does the methodology make sense? And thoughts or criticisms?
Nice!:clap:
 

NoFucks2Give

Well-Known Member
LER (luminous efficacy of radiation). That tells us how many lumens are in one radiant watt of a particular spectrum.
I understand LER. I do not have enough time to explain everything. But you are kind of right. The spreadsheet is very old from around 2010. It uses the calculations from the days when phosphors were very inefficient and white LEDs were fabricated from RGB mono LEDs.

LER is the theoretical maximum luminous efficacy of a light source of a given spectral distribution. It is calculated from the radiant watts. But that goes back to the early 2000's when the rules for measuring LEDs were first being written. It's kind of out dated in the way it is calculated in the spreadsheet.

I believe the term may have been coined at SPIE Fourth International Conference on Solid State lighting, Denver, CO, August 2004 when the official LED measurement rules were adopted. The US government was pushing the effort to get solid state lighting standardized because they saw today coming with the current efficiencies. 22% of electric then when to lighting. LEDs have significantly reduced that.

LER was a big part of standardizing LED measurements. It is now obsolete. You may notice outside of this website the term is no longer used. The rules for measuring LED characteristics has changed since the early 2000's.

This formula is no longer used. It may be used in Alesh's spreadsheet. Because it is no longer used does not diminish it's value. If used correctly. I suspect it is not being used correctly in the spreadsheet.

formulaLER.jpg

K is the luminous efficacy of radiation (ratio of luminous flux to radiant flux, aka LER)
nv = luminous efficacy, lm/W
nc = radiant efficiency of the source (ratio of output radiant flux to input electrical power, aka EQE “external quantum efficiency ")

BTW my 3 LED model is very similar to the model used to calculate LER and measure LEDs once upon a time. This 3 LED model went on into the calculations for CCT and CRI. That is a REAL pain in the ass.

I am working on explaining some things about the spreadsheet but I need more time. I am far enough along to have found the source of problem I suspected. It has to do with using normalized radiant values then using the LER to make them relevant. Please be patient. I am just trying to help. Someone said this was "simple maths", I do not agree. This is complicated shit that appears at first glance to be simple. I suggest you try to pretend I know what I am doing. Soon it will be definitive whether I know what I am doing of that I am a just a flake. This is not easy. When I was learning how to do the math I would go to places like physics.stackexchange.com and the question about how to convert from lumens to quantum was there, but no one could answer it. It was not easy finding all the pieces to the puzzle. There is more information being posted on how to do it these days but it is still not "easy maths".

If it was easy someone would have tried to find mistakes in my posted math. I doubt anyone on this site would possibly know if I made a mistake.
 
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NoFucks2Give

Well-Known Member
Like that "official " chlorophyll absorption charts are more or less useless ,
Back in seventh grade I was introduced to the Spectronic 20, or “Spec 20” for short. For those readers that are unfamiliar, it is essentially a tan breadbox with two dials, an analog meter, a dial to determine the wavelength transmitted, and a chamber for introducing a sample in a test tube. The device was originally made by Bausch & Lomb back in 1954, and even modern iterations reflect the basic, industrial, sturdy simplicity of the original model.
Back in 1980 we were given the charge to determine which wavelengths chlorophyll absorbed best. I don’t remember how we purified our sample, I just know that I zeroed the machine using a blank filled with water using the dial on the left, lowered the sample into the chamber, closed the lid, and then recorded the values for light absorption as we marched across the dial—from the UV to past the red wavelengths. From these readings we’d build a graph that would reflect an absorption spectrum for chlorophyll, absorbing light in the blue and red most efficiently, while offering little tono absorption in the green, yellow, orange and far-red regions of the spectrum.
Some basic hypotheses could have been constructed from these findings. Certainly the qualities of light that excite chlorophyll must provide information to the plant as well. In my third year of college I learned that this was so. I learned that red and blue light would trigger photomophogenic development. We discussed effects in a variety of plants, from peas to mung beans, to tobacco, to Lemnaas well as studies of chloroplast orientation in the green alga Mougeotia. There were even studies in a strange plant called Arabidopsis thaliana. All showed developmental effects of light, but mostly blue and red wavelengths. The correlation between the wavelengths that stimulated development and drove light-regulated metabolism was no surprise. Some wavelengths impart valuable information to the plant that promotes growth, development and photosynthetic capacity. Other wavelengths, like far-red and green, are not so important for metabolism but they are not benign- they shape plant processes in other ways that optimize light capture and adaptation. - Dr. Kevin Folta, The Guiding Force of Photons

I do not know if you know anything about Folta. He is considered one of those that know more about photosynthesis than anyone else on this planet. So I have been told by a few that should know if it is true or not. http://www.hos.ufl.edu/faculty/kmfolta Notice this March 2000- November 2002: Postdoctoral Research Associate, University of Wisconsin, Madison, WI. Where and when was it discovered that blue inhibits elongation when added to red?

Maybe it is taught differently in other parts of the world. In the US it is taught that 500nm-600nm is a "green hole".

Even the latest textbooks like this authoritative 2014 graduate level text shows an absorbance and action curve previously posted . It is explained a little bit in topic 7.1 on this web page: http://6e.plantphys.net/ch07.html

I do understand there is other opinions on the topic but I find the text is very carefully worded. I did once upon a time read the NASA study. But I think this recent one I attached "Green Light Drives Leaf Photosynthesis More Efficiently than Red Light in Strong White Light" is more detailed.

It says:
It is also known that green light, once absorbed by the leaves, drives photosynthesis with high efficiency.
The key phrase being " once absorbed".

It also says:
On an absorbed quantum basis, the efficiency or photosynthetic quantum yield of green light is comparable with that of red light, and greater than that of blue light.
The key phrase being "On an absorbed quantum basis"


It also says:
...many spectra of absorptance (the absolute value of light absorption) measured with integrating spheres have shown clearly that ordinary, green leaves of land plants absorb a substantial fraction of green light ( McCree 1972...
But does it?

Also the "spectra of absorptance" does not refer to photosynthesis, but rather absorption like that of any material like that used in the studies to identify cannabis fields by air photography by the reflected spectrum analysis.

The above quotes are highlighted in the attached study on pages 1 and 2 for context.

I have also attached the McCree Study. On page 210 there is a table of the Absorptance. These are absolute values. Absorption drop 10% between 500 and 525nm another 7% at 555nm\ then slowly makes it back to 90% absorption at 650nm. That's not too bad. But then on Page 208 the RELATIVE Action table. Relative meaning after the 10-15% loss in absorption the action losses are added relative to the absorption loss. Then further loss, Quantum Yield, relative to the combined absorption and action loss is added on Page 206

At 525nm is , the action is 81%, relative to absorption action is 55%, and quantum yield adds another 26% loss at 74%
action 81% + 55% absorption = 44%, + 74% from QY = 32% or a total of 67% loss


At 625nm is , the action is 88%, relative to absorption action is 95%, and quantum yield is 100%
action 88% + 95% absorption = 83.6%, or a total of 67% loss of 16.4%

Green loss = 67% Red loss = 16%.

That is why I have my doubts about green vs. red regarding photosynthesis.
 

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NoFucks2Give

Well-Known Member
equal amounts of red, green, and blue photons (5 uMoles of each) is only 5.42W, not 9.24W.
To get 5 µmol of red I needed 1.72 wall watts from 2 leds. green I needed 5 leds for 5.71 wall watts, and 1.82 wall watts of blue from 2 leds. That = 9.24 watts.


Now divide the total radiant watts by the total wall watts (3.38/5.42) and we get - 62.3%.
It's still 9.24 / 3.38 = 36.6%, no?
 

Rocket Soul

Well-Known Member
I am NOT stuck on mono LEDs it's that they are more efficient than CoBs. And they are much more flexible. I have dimmers on each wavelength and can tune my own CCT and CRI or light recipe. I design LED fixtures for the University of Florida Horticulture Department. I have been doing electrical engineering for over 40 years now. My expertise was designing integrated circuits for data communications. I designed the first PC Ethernet board for IBM I did the original MAC layer chips for GE's Token Bus and IBM's Token Ring. The point being I know how a CoB is made. And a CoB is not just LED dies wire bonded. They are made on a wafer and the chip is cut from the wafer. I would guess they include load balancing transistors as well for the parallel strings. Some internal connections appear to have some sort of wire bonding in some electron microscope photos I have seen. Silicon connections may have more resistance. But I am just guessing. The best source for how they are made is the patent office.

And LED Engines still makes CoBs with RGB emitters. They have some new ones especially for horticulture. A little pricey but each color can be individually tuned. I attached an older brochure. They are kinda cool.

It was not that long ago (2005) most white LEDs were RGB emitters when phosphor was still very inefficient.



I get that.
But not true yet. You have the efficiency of the wavelength conversion, and you have the quantum efficiency of phosphors (blocking the photons). An LED only has the the internal quantum efficiency. Not getting into the efficiency of the semiconductor materials. Designing an internal architecture that gets the photons that are generated to exit the LED (internal quantum efficiency) is the key, more so than the materials. The CoB's phosphor is one more layer that adds inefficiency. In theory the phosphor converters can do better than 100% efficiency. Just not yet. May be very close. On Digikey there are some Lumis CoBs where in the index it says 357 lm/W for a 5000K and 6500K . The 2700K are 275 lm/W. They are very new and I have not been able to find any one with them in stock yet. That was exciting to see. But it may be a typo. The datasheets say 186 lm/W 5000KI 70CRI and 146 lm/W 300)K 80 CRI. But what I like about then is the red peak is at 625 and 650 is at 90%.

View attachment 3967263

But then Lumiled should be releasing their quantum dot any day now. In mid May they said the next few month:
https://www.led-professional.com/technology/light-generation/narrow-emission-qds-improve-warm-white-led-performance-and-improve-color-rendering

My model was less efficient because I used deep red and deep blue. Had I used blue and red the luminous efficiency would have been much better.

I am not the least bit interested in luminous or radiant. I am only interested in quantum. I am not interest in Luminous/Radiant Flux or lux or W/m². I am only interested in Quantum Intensity.

I have some CoBs I can measure the luminous, radiant, and quantum intensity and get back to you with the results. The only one I did lux, µMoles, and radiant watts was the Luxeon Fresh Focus Red Meat when the luminous intensity was 43,590 lm/m², 1000 µmol/m²/s, and 20 W/m²

In general the white LEDs are still more efficient. LEDs are at about 200 lm/W and CoBs about 150 lm/W.

This is most of what I have, the Citizen contacts beak off very easily I have two broken and two that have not broken yet.
I do not use CoBs to grow. I use them to generate heat for thermal management experiments.
Cree 2700K 90 CRI CXA1304-0000-000C0Y9227G
Luxeon Crisp White L2C5-30901202E06C0
Lumis CLM-9-27-90-36-AC30-F4-3
Luxeon Core HD L2C5-27901204E0900
CLU028-1204C4-273H7K4
CLU028-1204C4-303M2K1
Vero Decor 1750K 97CRI

The model of the 3 mono LEDs was step one. I have another that shows why Alesh's spreadsheet has issues. Serious issues. Maybe it would be best if you pretend I just may know what I am doing. My take so far no one on this site fully understands the spreadsheet. I do not have enough time to squabble with you guys. I am only trying to help. I am humored when I am accused of not know what the fuck I am doing. Possibly I will soon be able to explain precisely why I believe there is a problem with the spreadsheet. I knew before I created my profile this was going to happen that is why I have the name. I will not be intimidated. I suspect there were others that saw the same issues as me but were run off by the CoB Snob Bullies.
This is actually interesting and goes over my head a bit. Why dont you start a thread about it instead of spreading out over several threads dedicated to not quite this?
 

NoFucks2Give

Well-Known Member
Why dont you start a thread about it
That is a good idea, I very well may take your advice. Right now I am busy wasting my time responding to the ridicule.

When I do a separate post I will explain how I came up with the values. I purposely left out some of the math so the CoB Snob Bullies will be left in the dark.

I verified my math formulas with a spectoradiometer which is calibrated traceable to NIST with their LED profile calibration license. I compared my calculated values with very accurate measurements of luminous, radiometric, and quantum intensity. Some of the missing figures I used in my post are from this page I made some time ago: http://growlightresearch.com/ppfd/convert.html
It may help get you up to speed.

Then the spreadsheet issues started here https://www.rollitup.org/t/math-behind.868988/page-5#post-13586972

On that same page I began reverse engineering the spreadsheet because no one could answer my questions. This explains a lot of the math. It's written in first person in the thoughts that were going through my mind while doing it. I spent many hours, too many hours working on this post:
https://www.rollitup.org/t/math-behind.868988/page-5#post-13588941


I do have a very interesting post I am currently working on but it is almost 6:00am and I need to get some sleep. Even at my age, I turned 63 today, Sunday, I still need some sleep.
 
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Greengenes707

Well-Known Member
You can bitch and moan all you want, and blame your age for being senile...but...
End of the day put your completed fixture in a sphere and/or on a goniometer. All the information is given after that, in an unaltered, and usable for for you to convert whichever way you damn well feel like...lumens, photons, or just leave it in radiant watts.
That is also how Lm/w is found...by radiants watts and a conversion factor based on the SPD. And why we CAN work backwards when only lm/w(not radiant watts) is given.

And since your such an educated human being...I don't want to hear you bitch about PPF...you can use a goniometer to calculate PPFD in addition to PPF. And it's incident angles if you wanted to take it that far.

Please provide some actual data on radiometric efficiency in real world application from a completed fixture.For both what you preach...and what you are calling as false and opposing...I'll wait.
 

wietefras

Well-Known Member
Just ignore the guy. He's either trolling on purpose or he just cannot understand how wrong he is on so many points. Either way he will just keep posting nonsensical replies.

Everybody with any sense knows plants do use green light. Perhaps a little less efficient than other wavelengths, but McCree and others have demonstrated that plants do. What's the point of "discussing" this further with someone who just won't accept these facts.
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
"We've been studying CO2 chemistry for a long time, more than 100 years,
and there's very little evidence that we could do what a leaf does."

Andrew Bocarsly ,Chemist ,Princeton University.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/plants-versus-photovoltaics-at-capturing-sunlight/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthetic_efficiency
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthetically_active_radiation

Let us take " green light " from the start .
Photosynthesis does not involve just chlorophylls.
Photosynthesis does not involve just chloroplasts.
Photosynthesis does not involve just a leaf (of higher plants).
Photosynthesis does not involve just the top canopy .

Photosynthesis takes place within living ,three -dimensional organisms .

(photosynthesis does not occur in devices like PC Ethernet boards and token buses and rings .Ok ? )

So far so good .

Life is evolving .
Evolution is the result of the best possible adaptation to enviromental constants or variables .

Light is the main energy souce for photosynthetic organisms.

Thus ,the latter (including higher plants ) have had some millions of years to adapt to Sun's available light ,
as their main and only form of energy.

Google search for the first million dollar question :
In which part of PAR spectrum of sun ,
there is the most available energy throughout the duration of a single day ?


Google search for the second million dollar question :
In which part of PAR spectrum of sun ,
there is the most available energy throughout the different seasons?

(Hint: "Presumably there is a reason
that higher plants maintain a complement of photosyn-
thetic pigments that exhibit the least amount of absorbancy
in the green region of the spectrum, which again, is the

region of the spectrum that provides the greatest amount
of energy on our planet’s surface
"
http://www.esalq.usp.br/lepse/imgs/conteudo_thumb/Why-are-higher-plants-green--Evolution-of-the-higher-plant-photosynthetic-pigment-complement.pdf )

When the answers for the above two questions are discovered,
then it will be quite obvious why the 500-600 nm part of the visible electromagnetic spectrum
is the BASIC energy source for photosynthesis ,especially of higher plants.

BASIC and not most EFFICIENT .
Plants are not after efficiency .
(otherwise they would have had black color )
http://www.news.leiden.edu/news/why-are-plants-not-black.html

Neither a human can force them to be.

And the plants adapted accordingly ,of course.
No living creature is (spending energy into ) searching for what is already vastly available.
Including plants.Especially the plants "put a special effort" to harvest the parts of energy
that they are not always readily available.
As they also use those " special" parts (because they are available under certain conditions ) for
other -crucial for sustaining life -biological procedures.Like interacting with the environment.
Or season .Or time of day .
Supply only those "special "parts of energy and watch everything getting messed -up.
It's the plants trying to adapt to that "alien " form of energy and those skewed / false "signals "
coming along .

But then most of you already know that.
Mostly by your real life experience.
Otherwise most of the pics in this part of the forum would have had a blurple hue .
Right ?
:wink:

Cheers.
:peace:


 
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NoFucks2Give

Well-Known Member
Everybody with any sense knows plants do use green light. P
They do use green light, just not as efficiently as red or blue. Not my words but the words of scientists that know a little more about photosynthesis than you. You have a mind like a steel trap, always closed.

You and your Snob CoB Bully idiots may want to misconstrue McCree. When you guys run the Horticulture Dept. at a major university or have written a textbook that has been chosen by graduate professor across the world for 22 years and 6 editions then I may take your word. Until then I will take the work of Dr. Kevin Folta and the authors of Plant Physiology and Development 6th edition. Both that say YOU ARE WRONG.

In case you did not read:
Other wavelengths, like far-red and green, are not so important for metabolism but they are not benign- they shape plant processes in other ways that optimize light capture and adaptation. - Dr. Kevin Folta, The Guiding Force of Photons

I originally thought McCree was like you misconstrue. I took the mean numbers for each wavelength from the tables on pages 206, 208, and 210 of the McCree study and made this chart.

mcCree.jpg

The problem was it did not look like the charts from the textbook. So a Plant Physiology professor, Dr Thomas A. Colquhoun explained that the tables are relative to the previous. Which is where the following came from.

fig7-8.jpg

At 525nm is , the action is 81%, relative to absorption action is 55%, and quantum yield adds another 26% loss at 74%
action 81% + 55% absorption = 44%, + 74% from QY = 32% or a total of 67% loss

At 625nm is , the action is 88%, relative to absorption action is 95%, and quantum yield is 100%
action 88% + 95% absorption = 83.6%, or a total of 67% loss of 16.4%

Green loss = 67% Red loss = 16%.
Colquhoun wrote this paper and Folta was the editor. Colquhoun and his grad students did all the mass spectrometer work on the volatiles. I wrote an algorithm for them to take the data from the mass spec and identify the volatile compounds in the NIST library of compounds. When you can conduct experiments like this or write a paper like this, I may then listen to you. Until then, no fucking way. Ordinarily people live and learn, you only live, and in the shallow end of the gene pool. Didn't the wizard promise you a brain?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5007804/
 

BobCajun

Well-Known Member
Actually I read a thing the other day saying that you can use green light as a night break to prevent flowering. They said green or red. So the thing about using green to look around during the dark period is rather questionable. Probably wouldn't notice unless you did it about 8 hours into the dark period, when a night break is most effective. That must be why people have been getting away with it this long, just lucky timing.

I happened to save the article so here's a quote. It's an article about Chrysanthemum flowering, which is very similar to cannabis flowering. In the quote, NB stands for night break. CsFTL3 means the flowering hormone and CsAFT means the anti-flowering hormone. The article is called; The gated induction system of a systemic floral inhibitor, antiflorigen, determines obligate short-day flowering in chrysanthemums.

BTW to really see plants in the dark I guess you would need an infrared viewing device and some infrared light, which we know won't inhibit flowering.

"NB response in C. seticuspe to differing light quality was also
tested with four light-emitting diode (LED) panels. NB with
peak irradiance at 530 nm (green) or 660 nm (red) light effectively inhibited flowering and expression of CsFTL3, and induced
expression of CsAFT"

Also on the subject of plants using green light, it's true. It's used mostly by lower leaves and may produce shade avoidance, meaning stretching, like far red. An odd thing I noticed though is that lower buds seem to get more resin on them than top buds, at least with high intensity. It may be that green light produces more resin. Just a possibility, haven't tried any experiments or anything. Don't have any green lights except small CFL party CFL bulbs, not really pure green anyway but looks green. Upper buds just seem "dry" to me compared to lowers.
 
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NoFucks2Give

Well-Known Member
(photosynthesis does not occur in devices like PC Ethernet boards and token buses and rings .Ok ? )

So far so good .

Life is evolving .
I like your posts. A refreshing and rare glimpse of intelligence on this site.
I appreciate the effort you put into your posts and citations.

I am not by any means an expert in plant physiology. I just happen to have the entire staff of horticulture professors and grad students at my disposal to answer specific questions. Actually they are very accessible to anyone. Folta has many public blogs where he asks the public to ask him a question on any topic. The professors answer their phone themselves and will gladly talk to anyone about horticulture. The only reason I mentioned my integrated circuit design experience is because someone insinuated I do not know how a CoB is fabricated. I have taken tours of many semiconductor fabrication facilities.

I listen to those that are proponents of green. Some have an agenda, some are very convincing but the explanations are a bit over my head. Like the "Green Light Drives Leaf Photosynthesis More Efficiently than Red Light in Strong White Light" study, it delves into topics that requires a PhD to understand. I have NO VESTED INTEREST in green for any reason other than design of LED lighting. I do have fixture I built for the University that use just white LEDs. We do not use CoBs becasue we need to tune each color. Every wavelength of every string of LEDs has a dimmer driver.

At issue is the utilization of green/yellow in the 500nm to 600nm range. I read every link in your post. Only the second of the Wikipedia posts had anything regarding this "green hole" band. This is what I found just like what I have been saying:

Par_action_spectrum.gif
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
I do have fixture I built for the University that use just white LEDs. We do not use CoBs becasue we need to tune each color. Every wavelength of every string of LEDs has a dimmer driver.


View attachment 3967469
That I can understand.
But keep in mind that this is more of a "scientific research " solid state light fixture you are mentioning.It's purpose is to supply different parts of electromagnetic radiation or their combinations in order to study the plants reactions.
There are some light fixtures like that. Like those from Heliospectra .

But here we need a low cost ,immediate and readily available solution for actual growing purposes.
COB lighting devices are not made for horticultural purposes.
They are made solely for human vision .
But we just got ...lucky .
Below is a comparison graph .

The LED spectra probably is taken from a 5000°K ,70 Ra phosphor converted white LED.
Change that with the typical 3000° K ,80Ra ( or even 90Ra for more emphasis on the red part ).
It's relatively easy to notice that the 3000°K phosphor converted is almost identical with the "Noon sunlight" spectrum.

We got just lucky enough .
Because if we were to make up that exact or similar spectrum using monos,we would 've came across several difficulties. ( different diodes driving ,cooling , arranging ,etc )
So , those COBs ,using several hundreds low-driven blue chips
(compensating with their higher efficiency operation for the phosphor Stokes shift ,re-excitation and absorption losses )is the " best " available means of generating photosynthetic active radiation so far,at least amongst any other solid state lighting available alternatives .

Cheers.
:peace:

P.S. "Green Window "

" Most photosynthetic organisms do not absorb green light well, thus most remaining light under leaf canopies in forests or under water with abundant plankton is green, a spectral effect called the "green window". "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessory_pigment

" I will address the importance of green light
in the overall energy balance of photosynthesis of higher
plants
and discuss a role for green light, which may con-
tribute more to photosynthesis than blue or red light under
greater than saturating light conditions
. "

"In conclusion, the particular complement of photosyn-
thetic pigments used by higher plants is well suited to the
highly variable light environment on land.
Under non-
saturating light, maximal utilization of light is possible,
because NPQ is not induced. Under saturating light condi-
tions, when NPQ is engaged, high quantities of blue and red
light energy absorbed in the upper, light-exposed portion
of the leaf can be dissipated as heat. Green light trans-
mitted deeply into the leaf, however, can effectively drive
photosynthetic electron transport, where NPQ will not be
engaged.
If other pigments such as fucoxanthin, bilipro-
teins, or Chlc were utilized by higher plants, the green light

window would be effectively closed***, and such dynamic
absorption and utilization of light would not be possible. "

( NPQ: non-photochemical quenching ,
*** In other words plants would have had a black color )

"Why would terrestrial animals evolve to be sensitive to the
greatest radiant energy source, and terrestrial higher plants
evolve a pigment system that absorbs the least in the same
spectral region?
"
And that is the third million dollar question ...
8)


http://www.esalq.usp.br/lepse/imgs/conteudo_thumb/Why-are-higher-plants-green--Evolution-of-the-higher-plant-photosynthetic-pigment-complement.pdf
 
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