Watercooled Smart IC COB LED Build

[ssj4jonathan]

We should all know by now that LEDs are the way to go; they're efficient and on the cutting edge of the luminary world. I remember way back around 2011 when red and blue LED grow lights first came out. I dropped 200 dollars on a 100 watt piece-of-shit Chinese light, which was most likely only putting out 30 actual watts. It was my first grow ever, and I must admit the bud I grew with this light was the best green I've ever smoked. (In hindsight, wish I would have bought some bitcoins with that money)

Anyone still using a HPS/MH setup up are doing themselves and the world an INJUSTICE. Sure, HPS might get somewhere around 120Lm/W, but most of light you don't see is infrared and what you do see are colors plants don't want to see. Old school growers do yourself a favor and switch now that COB LEDs are the all the rave. It's the perfect time to start creating upgradable rigs as technology advances LEDs. Watt for watt, LEDS will out perform HPS, hands down. These Smart IC COBS may not be efficient as normally driven LEDs, but my guess is there still more efficient than a HPS. Time will tell....

So, on to the main point of this thread. I wanted to build something affordable, upgradable, and efficient. That being said, most of my parts were sourced from eBay, so I'll provide some search keywords along with recommended sellers. I usually sort by lowest price then go with whom ever has the cheapest price. If you decide to build something similar, expect to spend around $250 for a bare bones version.

On with the show!!... Now allow me to share with you my custom watercooled dimmable light rig.

!!MUST HAVE Ebay PARTS!!​

FLOODLIGHT COB CHIP INTERGRATED SMART IC DRIVER: (Buy12 60mmx40mm 50W COBS: 4 cool white, 8 full sprectrum)
Seller: electronic.alice

GELID GC-EXTREME 10G: (YES buy the BIG 10g mini tub, you'll need it all)
Seller: fp-outlet

44mm LENS REFLECTOR COLLIMATOR FIXED BRACET: (Buy 12)
Seller: panpan-supermarket

OFC COPPPER WIRE 16AWG 50ft: (Buy red and black, 100ft total!)
Seller: whitaylot

PVC HOSE 8mm 20ft:
Seller: axeprice

200 41 WATERBLOCK: (Buy 4)
Seller: lxxstore88

R360 RADIATOR: (NOTE: A smaller radiator will work fine, less fans to buy too!)
Seller: lxxstore88

DELTA AFB1212VHE LARGE: (Buy 3)
Seller: unaliu*2010

12V 6A POWER SUPPLY:
Seller: focusepart

DC12V 3M 240L WATER PUMP: (Buy 2)
Seller:smile_cc

!!MISCELLANEOUS eBay MUST HAVE PARTS!!​

SOLDERING IRON 50 Watt
ROSIN FLUX
SOLDER
50PCS INSULATED STRAIGHT BUTT CONNECTORS
5 PCS BRASS Y-SHAPED 3 WAY HOSE BARB FITTING ADAPTER: (Buy 2, 10PCS Total)
50 PCS M3 X 35MM ALLOW STEEL HEXAGON SOCKET BUTTON
HEAVY DUTY 3-PRONG MALE EXTENSION CORD ELECTRICAL PLUG
20 PCS HOSE CLAMP 1/4
300mm ZIP TIES
6mm SHRINK WRAP 20 FT

!!MUST HAVE Walmart PARTS!!
​

Sparco-Clipboard-6-X-9-Hardboard: (Buy 2)
2 Gallon Bucket: (Must buy 2)

!!OPTIONAL SAFETY eBay PARTS!!
​

5PCS IN LINE MINI BLADE FUSE HOLDER
5 PCS 1 AMP MINI FUSE
10 PCS 5X20MM AGC FUSE HOLDER INLINE SCREW TYPE WITH 16 AWG
PACK OF 10PCS 1A AMP GLASS QUICK BLOW FAST ACTING FUSES 5MM X 20MM: (Buy 2)
PROSEAL OIL-RESISTANT BLACK RTV SILICONE

!!OPTIONAL eBay DIMMER!!
​

VARIAC AUTO TRANSFORMER AC VARIABLE VOLTAGE REGULATOR

!!!ASSEMBLY!!!
​

Start by dry fitting your water block on your clipboard. Trace the blocks, then place your COBS on the tracing, next place your lens setup on your cob and trace where the m3 bolts will be going. With your 200mm block you'll be able to fit three COBS comfortably. The space onside the center cob is where you'll be zip tying down your water block, so trace a hole there too. You should have something that looks like this:

Now we move onto the LED lights: they're about 85% efficient linear driven IC LED COBS. They're rated at 100Lm/W at max power, 120Lm/W at lower wattage. Each one has 72 1 watt LEDs on the chip board, along with 5 linear drive chips which output 80mA of current each. There's also a resistor for each linear drive chip, one capacitor and a bridge rectifier. Wiring is super simple, everything has to be done in parallel. For safety reasons, I recommend soldering a 1 amp glass fuse holder inline directly onto the L wield spot. Make sure all the wires coming from the L and N spots are the same length, this helps keeps the resistance equal across all LEDS. Solder your Neutral black wire on the N spots the same way.

Once everything is soldered together, place your COBS onto your pre-drilled clipboard, with zip tied waterblock already in place. Make sure you apply just enough thermal paste to the back of each COB. This acts as a temporary glue. To be safe, dab a bit of silicone RTV on the wield points. Now get your lens kit on each COB and bolt down the bracket. Your RIG is set!


The tricky part is tying together your COBS' wiring together. Solution: PIGTAILS!!! Do this for each row of lights. Pigtail 3 red wires into one, same with the black wires. Then solder these pigtails into one solid winding. Use blue butt crimp connectors to tie the windings from one waterblock to the next winding on the other side. Do this by crimping a short piece of wire to the blue butt connector running from the 3 wire winding, then pig tail this short wire with the another short wire running from the other block, butt crimp these two wires. Finally, add your final wire to this last crimp connectors. Remember to solder two or more wires together before crimping.


One good thing about these AGC fuse holders is you can unscrew them and assemble everything first then screw them back in place after. This helps maneuver your wires more easily. I had 4 rigs (12 COBS) to do so it took FOREVER to get everything soldered and pigtailed together.

Because we are working with a high voltage main power line, you HAVE TO ground your water blocks. The good thing about using a clipboard is that the clip grounds both blocks at once. All you have to do is tie a wire to the center clip hole and that's done.

The final step is wiring your THREE wires (ONE LIVE red, ONE NEUTRAL black, and ONE GROUND) into your household electrical plug. It can't get any easier than this is. Just make sure you don't switch anything up. LIVE goes on the left, Neutral on the right, and the ground on the bottom prong, this orientation is coming from looking directly at your electrical outlet.

Lights are FINISHED!!! On a side note, I wanted to be able to dim my light because 600 watts is a little too much power for my 3x3 tent. Thus I plugged my light into a VARIAC and now I can dim it to about 50 VAC (~200 watts) before the COBs shuts off.

We're not done yet though! The waterblocks need their plumbing! This is straight forward. Each rig gets their own water pump, which pumps cooled res water into its rig. This translate into a 3 way spliter spliting the main water pump line into two which goes into each block on one rig. The nipples where heated water exits is then 3-wayed into one line per rig, then these two lines, 1 per rigs get 3-ways into one line again. I know... this sounds like a headache, it was. All this because I only bought one big-ass radiator.... haha. SOOO... now there's only one line for hot water that leaves the tent and goes to the radiator. Finally the radiator empties out into the res.

The fans and water pumps are also wired in parallel since all we have is a 12VDC power supply. I read somewhere that as long as you have the right voltage, when wiring in parallel, the amps don't matter as long as you have more than enough, because your components only take what they need. All of this is wired the same way as the lights. The reds get pigtailed together for the pumps, and the reds of the fans get pigtailed together, each pigtail gets one butt crimp. Then these two lines get pig tailed and butt connected into the main red wire coming out of your AC adapter. Same goes for the black wire. For safety reason I added three inline mini blade 1 amp fuses to the fans.

Here's the whole setup in all its glory INSIDE the tent:

Now do away with your HPS lights. If you have any quesitions or comments, reply.

 

[CobKits]

i have a feeling that even when watercooled those chips are only going to equal the efficiency of an HPS

 

[HighOnDIYLife]

i have a feeling that even when watercooled those chips are only going to equal the efficiency of an HPS

Yep.

 

[CobKits]

also without a datasheet its hard to determine what effect dimming voltage via variac will have on efficiency

 

[ssj4jonathan]

There's a white paper circulating the web from the manufacturer of the linear drive chips used to power these LED array. Accordingly, these chips become more efficient as the forward voltage matches the input voltage. Forward voltage for an LED array of this type is around 35-40 vF. Using my variac and regulating the voltage to about 80-90 VAC, chip efficiency should be higher than normal. I can't be sure how much more efficient, as I don't have any measuring equipment but we can safely assume they're not reaching a Meanwell standard of 93%. All in all, considering these chips saved me the cost of having to buy three or four HLG-185H-C1400B drivers, I don't mind loosing another 10% on efficiency.

Now to address your

i have a feeling that even when watercooled those chips are only going to equal the efficiency of an HPS

assumption that my 600W LED light is maybe "only" as efficient as a 600W HPS?

As pictured above, plants want mostly red and blue light. My light consist of 8 full spectrum COBs and 4 cool white COBs. A full spectrum COB gives out light similar to the picture below:

A cool white light spectrum has a spectrum similar to this picture below:

OK, now compare all that to a HPS:

Do you see the big picture? In summary, I'm running my lights at 80-90 VAC, have three fans that pull 1.5A @ 12V, and two tiny pumps that pull less than 1A @ 12V. This give me a total power consumption of about ~ 400 watts. I'm even thinking that running all three fans is over kill so most likely will pulling some fuses to control which ones stay off. Also most of the heat created by my lights (which isn't much because their being operated no where near max power) is being pumped outside of the grow tent. And to top that off, that I have dialed in the light spectrum to match the PAR spectral range.

More info here: Understanding Par

How you believe this setup is as efficient to -- or close to being as efficient as -- a 600W HPS is beyond me? The temperature rise of my grow tent, when running at 90VAC is 1-2 F, at max power (~130VAC) it's 4-5 F. Keep in mind I do not yet have any fans blowing air into or out of the tent; everything is being passively convected out through the vents.

There's plenty of threads out there of growers crying out for help because their 600W HPS is cooking their 3x3 tents. My light at max power (~630W @ 130VAC) is no where near close to radiating the heat a 600W HPS gives out. And watt for watt, my light is most likely giving out a higher PAR reading than a HPS. Lumens... maybe not, but lumens aren't all that important when growing (maybe for photography or cinematography, yes). So, for whatever reasoning or prejudice you might have against these SMART IC COBs, may it be laid to rest. Smart IC LEDS FTW. You just can't appease all the naysayers all the

 

[CobKits]

Do you see the big picture?

you can quote spectra till the cows come home but theres no real data on the installed efficacy of the chips themselves, which is one of the most important factors. Your 620W build puts out nearly exactly as much heat as a 600HPS, you just happen to be removing it out of the tent (just as an HPS user could with a cool tube)

also "plants want more blue light" is a misunderstanding of those charts. the full spectrum graph for the chips you provided has enough blue to photoinhibit and has more relative IR than an HPS. Then youre adding more blue with the cool whites.

Matching spectra to mcree data is what the original red-blue light manufacturers did- and none of their claims ever panned out.

but in the big picture the chips probably arent all that efficient and the spectrum is probably not the best choice for flowering. but get some plants under it and we'll see how they do. You can use 1.0gpw (at the wall) as a baseline for what hps can do and 1.2-1.4gpw for what an average modern LED garden will yield with a well-maintained garden

 

[xX_BHMC_Xx]

First off, props to you for taking the time and resources to build this.
That being said, I think you're barking up the wrong tree here.
The words, "white paper" and "manufacturer" are mutually exclusive.
Also, I think you should look into who @CobKits is and what he does before you try to educate him...

 

[CobKits]

i dont carry a chip on my shoulder, its the same that anybody who understands spectra would say.

 

[ssj4jonathan]

First off, props to you...The words, "white paper" and "manufacturer" are mutually exclusive.

Thanks for the pat on the back but how are those two words exclusive? A white paper is an informational document issued by a company to promote or highlight the features of a solution, product or service. The PDF uploaded is exactly that; guess I should have called it a data sheet to ease any confusion?

in the big picture the chips probably aren't all that efficient and the spectrum is probably not the best choice for flowering. but get some plants under it and we'll see how they do.

We all know that HPS are notoriously known for being inefficient lamp. I can't stress enough that any LED, whether switch driven or linear driven will be more efficient than a HPS. By how much isn't the point, the bottom line is that linear IC COB LEDs are better than HPS in all respects. So I firmly stand behind my notion that these cheap-ass Chinese full spectrum IC COB LEDs are better (and more efficient) than any HPS. Apples for apples, place my setup alongside a water cooled tube 600HPS, my setup would outperform the competition.

I commend CobKits for advancing the DIY of LED lighting. Like you've said: it all comes down to how the plants like the light. So if anyone wants to keep tabs on my grow op, please check out my other post:

https://www.rollitup.org/t/auto-airpot-waterfarm-led-grow.939447/

 

[CobKits]

By how much isn't the point, the bottom line is that linear IC COB LEDs are better than HPS in all respects.

im sorry but i havent seen the evidence of this and youre basing every other point off of that one assumption

 

[GrnMonStr]

@ssj4jonathan: Love the DIY ideas and info! I am looking to upgrade my lighting also and heat is my #1 issue. I didn't notice the ballast is that done in a remote location? I may have missed where you stated that. There was a DIY COB post a while back and I think he said his heat sinks were about 110 deg. F, and so the water cooling concept is great. I guess down the road depending how your grow does you could easily swap out a light chip with another easily enough. But after reading some of the comments it makes me wonder what exactly the issue is? Are there better light chips & color temps, I have to re-read it all again.

 

[CobKits]

Love the DIY ideas and info! I am looking to upgrade my lighting also and heat is my #1 issue.

you want high quality cobs and use more chips in your design so you can run them soft at 25-35W/chip. its hard to get much more efficient than that without doubling the cost of your build. 180+ lumen/watt

 

[ssj4jonathan]

@ssj4jonathan: Love the DIY ideas and info! I am looking to upgrade my lighting also and heat is my #1 issue. I didn't notice the ballast is that done in a remote location? I may have missed where you stated that. There was a DIY COB post a while back and I think he said his heat sinks were about 110 deg. F, and so the water cooling concept is great. I guess down the road depending how your grow does you could easily swap out a light chip with another easily enough. But after reading some of the comments it makes me wonder what exactly the issue is? Are there better light chips & color temps, I have to re-read it all again.

One issue at a time! Please!

First of all:This upgrade is your best bet if you want to eliminate heat issues and save money while getting the all benefits of LED lighting.

The "ballast" isn't needed if you want to run your lights at max power (120VAC) all the time. It's really a AUTOTRANSFORMER and they're called VARIACs, because they make the mains variable from 0 VAC to 130 VAC. Opted in for this hunk of junk to dim the lights while making them more efficient. On the same note, if you do want dimming capabilities, and maybe? more efficiency, a 1000W TRIAC will fit the bill.

My RIG has an 8ft power cord to snake it out of the tent and plug it into the VARIAC, which happens not to like 70%+ humidity.

The ISSUES (as vehemently protested by COBKITs) are three-fold. Firstly, one issue comes by way these COB LEDs are powered. LINEAR driven IC COB are about 75-80% efficient, as compared to SWITCH driven COBs which are at best 93% efficient in making AC into DC electricity.

Second, the COBs themselves are cheap and Chinese, and don't compare to the industry's best COBs made by CREE (USA), which get 150-180 lumens per watt. These cheap ones are rated at 120 lumens per watt. Then again CREE COBS are $60 each!

So yeah there's going to be a trade off when you go with $3 cobs: it's efficiency... Or you can fork over $1000's in the best MEANWELL drivers and CREE COBS, then watercool them just like my setup, and have a real badass light. If I was rich I'd go with MEANWELL and CREE hands down. But I'm not, and I know many of our members aren't either so this is why I created this thread; to help others get some bitching lights at a modest price.

Lastly, which is trivial, my choosen spectrum doesn't meet the international Marijuana COB association's standard of excellence... LOL. According to this authority, I should have gone with the color of the sun at high noon, which is around 4700K, and God forbid I ever use BLURPLE lights, because trying to mimic the optimal PAR spectrum is a mortal sin.

Since I've ranted this far let me conjecture: I suspect COBKITs has ulterior motives on top of the three factual issues listed above. He is financially invested in the LED market. So of course he'll point out all the flaws and say "outdated HPS lighting is marginally better" than these COBs... so don't waste your time and money on making something like this. In my honest opinion, for the money (you may) spent and the product (you might) created, this light is worth abandoning HPS/MH bulbs and replicating. So haters stand behind me.

And finally, to enlighten those still in the dark about linear driven COBs please watch these two videos:

 

[CobKits]

Since I've ranted this far let me conjecture: I suspect COBKITs has ulterior motives on top of the three factual issues listed above. He is financially invested in the LED market.

thats correct. i am invested in the LED market as both a vendor and a grower. Its been an uphill climb recovering from the misinformation age of 2007-present.

I'll watch your thread but be prepared to be called out for assumptions and incorrect info like

Anyone still using a HPS/MH setup up are doing themselves and the world an INJUSTICE

Now we move onto the LED lights: they're about 85% efficient linear driven IC LED COBS

etc. I'm all about experimenting but lets be careful not to mix assumptions with facts

ok so

There's a white paper circulating the web from the manufacturer of the linear drive chips used to power these LED array.

you should link it for us if you want some feedback

They're rated at 100Lm/W at max power, 120Lm/W at lower wattage.

so since they are 50W max each, lets assume that the 100 lm/W is at 50W. following the common rule of thumb that cutting current in half bumps efficiency 10% (every chip ive ever tested follows this rule +/1 a few %), lets assume they are 110 lm/W @ 25W and 120 lm/W at 15W, 135 lm/W @7W (if stable)

so these 50W IC cobs are $2 each on a chip and driver cost basis. I have to include a 10A $75 variac (12 cents/watt@600W) if we want to dim these chips to any reasonable efficiency:
4 cents per watt at 100 lm/W, 50W/chip (not dimmed)
20 cents per watt at 110 lm/W, 25 W/chip
25 cents per watt at 120 lm/W, 15W/chip
41 cents per watt at 135 lm/W, 7W/chip

remember that does not include any heatsinks etc. thats just chip and driver

single ended HPS cost:
13-20 cents per watt at 120+ lm/W, no assembly required

so it seems like with the variac requirement to dim, if the mfr spec is correct on your leds, they might come close to HPS on efficiency at twice the price

so lets put it up against one of the cheapest common chips out there, the citizen 1212 gen5 ($8 ) and cheapest common drivers out there (meanwell hlg-185-36A, $50, 220W, $0.23/W). We'll use 93.5% for efficiency. potentiometers are like $2, resistors are like pennies, and are negligible if you want to be budget.

so back to your original angle - if youre going to chastise people who use 120 lm/W technology and them go thru a bunch of work playing with 120V AC (not for everybody), only to come up with something thats more expensive and less efficient than HPS, shouldnt you be chastized as well. Lets raise the bar and get to at least 135 lm/W. First off, are your chips capable of reaching 135 lm/W? are they stable at 7W? we dont really know.

so lets put the AC cob rig up against one of the cheapest common chips out there, the citizen 1212 gen5 ($8.00 ) and cheapest common drivers out there (meanwell hlg-185-36A, $50, 220W, $0.23/W). We'll use 93.5% for efficiency and include that in the math below

100 lm/W - N/A
110 lm/W - N/A
120 lm/W - 96W/chip, 8 cents per watt+0.23 driver = 0.31/Watt
135 lm/W - 59W/chip, 13 cents per watt+0.23 driver = 0.36/Watt

so on a chip and driver cost basis, at 135 lm/W system efficiency, youre 15% more expensive than the cheapest cob rig we can build with a chip of known efficiency and driver with a 7 year warranty. chips have future use at up to 180 lm/W+ if you wish to run them that way at a later date. chips have verifiable LM80 data and binning, and low defect rate (1 in 1000? and readily replaced under warranty if so)

AC cobs:
-are 100-120 lm/W, or so were told, with no actual data
-were assuming 85% efficiency quoted includes the system, and that 100-120 lm/W is actually that and not 100 or 120 * 0.85
-have no binning or tolerance spec
-apparently have a reasonable defect rate (over 1 in 100) based on anecdotal reports here
-must be soldered (time =$)
-presents high voltage AC in humid growroom environment

all that for a comparable efficiency rig at higher cost *if* the specs are what they claim? Keep in mind to build a 600W rig ,you can use 10 citi 1212s or 90 of the AC cob chips. thats a lot of handwork even if not drilling.

also keep in mind i used 3500k 80 for the citi chip, intermediate efficiency. the spectrum youre assembling is more like 5000K. if i sub a 5000K chip in there, bump the citi efficiency by 10%

But im on your side. send me one, ill run spectrum on it, find the closest match and run the same color cob next to it in the sphere. for the price of a $2 chip you can quantify your whole rig, cant beat that.

 

[nfhiggs]

We all know that HPS are notoriously known for being inefficient lamp.


https://www.rollitup.org/t/auto-airpot-waterfarm-led-grow.939447/

Not sure where you got this idea from. Until recent COB developments over the last two years or so, HPS has been the most efficient light source available. 600W units are rated for 90,000 lumens - that's 150 L/W. Only recently have COBs and white light LEDs begun to exceed that.

 

[jane621]

Nice！

 

[ssj4jonathan]

I'm all about experimenting but lets be careful not to mix assumptions with facts...

you should link it for us if you want some feedback...

on a chip and driver cost basis. I have to include a variac 10A $75 variac (12 cents/watt@600W) if we want to dim these chips to any reasonable efficiency...

single ended HPS cost:
13-20 cents per watt at 120+ lm/W, no assembly required...

But im on your side. send me one, ill run spectrum on it, find the closest match and run the same color cob next to it in the sphere. for the price of a $2 chip you can quantify your whole rig, cant beat that.

So now we're reaching common ground. I too I'm all about facts and truths...

I did upload the data sheet day one, it's attached to my post#2 as a PDF...

The whole advantage of using linear IC COB LEDs is the fact that they do not need drivers or variacs. Don't skew this fact by "having to include a 10A variac." Comparing IC COBs to Meanwell COBs dollar/watt stops at 4 cents per watt versus 31 cent per watt. Also dimming can be achieved using a $20 1000w triac with similar results.

Moreover, do not detract from the whole point of my thread, which was NOT to compare a Meanwell driven COB to a linear chip driven COB. Your beating a dead horse here. It's plainly evident switch driven COBS are way more efficient but at a higher cost i.e. 27 cents per watt. As aforementioned, had I the funds, I would go with the best too: Meanwell and Cree.

The MAIN point of my thread is to inform growers that for around $250 you can replace your HPS with SMART IC COBs, get rid of all of your heat issues inherent in HPS, and have a light that very well might have a higher PAR value. That's all I'm saying! Why mess with a ultra hot light bulb, that needs duct fans, and an AC unit. I'm growing in a tent that is barely 3x3x5, a HPS/MH light would smoke my plants for me. Where's the fun in that? Take that into account.

To further prove my case, lets take into account your math of 20 cents per watt for HPS lighting versus my rig. At 20 cents per watt, you're buying a real nice digital ballast and high tech single ended bulb and the hood comes included. Great! Put that into a small tent, and you're going to be running red hot temps. So now add a nice in line exhaust fan with duct tubing, you're dropping another 80 bucks. We're at 31 cents per watt. Put that all together, you still have a hot grow room, and a light that's yellow with high lumens.

On the other hand, build a bare bone rig similar to mine for less than 41 cents per watt and you have a grow room with no heat problems, a light tailored to your plants (not the street as HPS are intended), with a high par value, and the satisfaction that you created a kick ass LED light engine that would have cost triple from a big name maker.

I would love to send you some IC COBs, but unfortunately I don't have 50w cool white or full spectrum COBs for you to test. If you'd like you can send me a driver and a citizen 1212 to test out. Shit maybe I'll buy some more from you if I'm convinced they're worth it.

 

[CobKits]

The whole advantage of using linear IC COB LEDs is the fact that they do not need drivers or variacs.

sure but if they cant reach our desired efficiency without dimming the conversation stops there, right?

 

[mahiluana]

your best bet if you want to eliminate heat issues and save money while getting the all benefits of LED lighting.

...is a coolmac-system.

to put your heat into a heatexchanger helps you really to save oil or gas and money.

Aircooled led light is ~25% energy efficient - my coolmac-system in the moment ~85%.

Soon I will show you ~95% and the lamp will not need any aluminium or metal heatsink.

 

[NoFucks2Give]

I suspect COBKITs has ulterior motives

@CobKits is a vendor but he knows his shit. He is not a charlatan vendor. He does not state things just to support an agenda. You can trust what he says.