How to correct P deficiency in cooked soil mix.

[Sidvicious1]

Hey, I have cooked my soil mix for a month and a half or so and my ph is about 6.5ish but I am getting zero reading on my P test. I figure it for locked out somehow and I just needed to know the best way to fix it. I have Dr earth fish bone meal and steamed bone meal of needed. Here are some pics. Any help would be greatly appreciated..

 

[SouthCross]

How well was the soil mixed up right before the test? Did you take readings from separate areas? What was the source of potassium to begin with?

 

[Johnei]

The size pots they're in. Replant them into a proper ammended new soil mix, I say.

 

[Johnei]

Those plants are being overwatered, by the way /and/or that soil mix is too compacted not well draining and every watering is acting as overwatering.

 

[Sidvicious1]

Let me clarify. I have a cooked soil mix I am going to be using when I transplant to bigger pots. I checked the ph oh and NPK and those were the results in the pic. The mix they are growing in is 2 part organic soil mix, 1part cooked soil mix, 1part ewc, 1part perlite. I'd like to transplant later today but I need my mix to be right before I do.. I assume the P is locked out since there's basically no color to the phosphorus test tube.. u can see my mix of u look up the thread, help a new living organics grower. Thanks for the help guys, i need it..

 

[Johnei]

I don't know how those NPK tests really work, like how accurate or good any of them really are, never used before, but I can tell you that P is very tightly bound into soil particles/humic matrix compared to a lot of the other minerals and maybe this has something to do with your test results, if YOU KNOW you added a good P source in your soil mix, then I wouldn't worry/rely on the test alone. If you are unsure, adding 1-2 tablespoons of fish bone meal per gallon of soil will take care of this. If you already did but maybe not enough you feel, stick to lower 1tablespoon dosage.

 

[Rasta Roy]

Your P levels are probably fine, those soil tests aren't worth a shit. They do an ok job a guessing soil pH, that's about it.

 

[Sidvicious1]

Thanks man.. yeah I couldn't figure out what was wrong but it was the kit that was fucked up. I tested my soil a few times and it wouldn't even get a reading for the phosphorus.. i thought it was locked out but didnt know why it would be so I checked just regular bagged soil mix and it read the same thing. No P at all do yeah the test kit must suck.. thanks guys for the ton of Info.. I'm going to add some more perlite and pot up and back off the watering a little more. They seem to be doing a little better since. I backed the light off a bit and backed off the water.. the light was just close and drying the small pots out to fast on topwhile it was still a little damp in the middle..

 

[Rasta Roy]

Thanks man.. yeah I couldn't figure out what was wrong but it was the kit that was fucked up. I tested my soil a few times and it wouldn't even get a reading for the phosphorus.. i thought it was locked out but didnt know why it would be so I checked just regular bagged soil mix and it read the same thing. No P at all do yeah the test kit must suck.. thanks guys for the ton of Info.. I'm going to add some more perlite and pot up and back off the watering a little more. They seem to be doing a little better since. I backed the light off a bit and backed off the water.. the light was just close and drying the small pots out to fast on topwhile it was still a little damp in the middle..

Mulch your plants with some wood mulch or straw, this will stop your top layer from prematurely drying out while the rest of the medium is still heavy, and it'll help keep your root zone cooler (so you plants can stand higher temps!).

 

[hillbill]

Adding a tbs or less of fish bone meal per gallon of mix should put your mind at ease and cause no harm. One of my essentials. It really does look like your present mix is high drainage and the plants might want nitrogen. They should respond well to up potting in richer mix.

 

[bobrown14]

Your P levels are probably fine, those soil tests aren't worth a shit. They do an ok job a guessing soil pH, that's about it.

^^^ that.. and the soil microbes will adjust the soil PH constantly on an as needed basis. Soooo all the tests the OP is trying to do to base some decision on, is a guess at best. I wouldn't even give it a "best guess".

This whole process of living soil is about getting your soil mix right up front. It must be balanced. You should be following a known good soil recipe until you get a few runs under your belt and see how the plants respond.

Organic soil .... I've been running organic soil for 40 years maybe longer.. the ONLY test I get done is once my soil mix is finished, I take a sample and send it out to my State AG University, thru the County Extension Service, that is paid for by our taxes. The soil test costs me $10 ..... tells me EVERYTHING I need to know about my soil and what I need to amend if anything.. I use Coots recipe and the last 3 tests came back perfect, didn't need to add anything and get great result with minimal effort.

For young plants I start them out in #2 nursery pots in some old soil with some added EWC and some mycos.. then when they are 1-2 months old transplant into final containers wait a week and into flower.

The OP is using that feed the plant mentality that I see a lot of folks new to organic farming try to use, usually unsuccessfully I might add. I had to take a leap of faith that my compost and mycos are up to the task and let the plants do their thing. I don't touch my girls hardly ever, don't mess with PH (I use RO water) and don't worry about runoff NPK none of that. Water for the win... that's it.

Overthinking growing a weed.. the challenge is getting the compost right and most of the work by a long shot. There isn't a day goes by we are not doing something with compost. Much more so than tending to plants.

Humans have been at this for several thousand years, chemical fertilizers and fancy test equipment 50 years maybe. If you listen to folks at a hydro store, you'd wonder how humans ever survived this long...

Step back away from the test kit .... get some humus and some worm castings and maybe a little peat moss, some aeration, mix that up and transplant those girls ASAP. Those wood chips... looks like wood chips, wow that's likely the WORST thing you could add to a container for gardening, and I would say the worst thing to use as a "mulch" outdoors as well.

 

[Sidvicious1]

^^^ that.. and the soil microbes will adjust the soil PH constantly on an as needed basis. Soooo all the tests the OP is trying to do to base some decision on, is a guess at best. I wouldn't even give it a "best guess".

This whole process of living soil is about getting your soil mix right up front. It must be balanced. You should be following a known good soil recipe until you get a few runs under your belt and see how the plants respond.

Organic soil .... I've been running organic soil for 40 years maybe longer.. the ONLY test I get done is once my soil mix is finished, I take a sample and send it out to my State AG University, thru the County Extension Service, that is paid for by our taxes. The soil test costs me $10 ..... tells me EVERYTHING I need to know about my soil and what I need to amend if anything.. I use Coots recipe and the last 3 tests came back perfect, didn't need to add anything and get great result with minimal effort.

For young plants I start them out in #2 nursery pots in some old soil with some added EWC and some mycos.. then when they are 1-2 months old transplant into final containers wait a week and into flower.

The OP is using that feed the plant mentality that I see a lot of folks new to organic farming try to use, usually unsuccessfully I might add. I had to take a leap of faith that my compost and mycos are up to the task and let the plants do their thing. I don't touch my girls hardly ever, don't mess with PH (I use RO water) and don't worry about runoff NPK none of that. Water for the win... that's it.

Overthinking growing a weed.. the challenge is getting the compost right and most of the work by a long shot. There isn't a day goes by we are not doing something with compost. Much more so than tending to plants.

Humans have been at this for several thousand years, chemical fertilizers and fancy test equipment 50 years maybe. If you listen to folks at a hydro store, you'd wonder how humans ever survived this long...

Step back away from the test kit .... get some humus and some worm castings and maybe a little peat moss, some aeration, mix that up and transplant those girls ASAP. Those wood chips... looks like wood chips, wow that's likely the WORST thing you could add to a container for gardening, and I would say the worst thing to use as a "mulch" outdoors as well.

Those wood chips is just the mulch on top. It's only a half inch thick.. the test is a cooked soil mix.. if u look up, help a new living organics grower, my mix It's on that thread..

 

[bobrown14]

Great... wood chips will do exactly what's in your pic to your plants... this ain't noting new! Anyone suggesting to use wood chips ... get a 2nd opinion.

Get rid of the wood chips and mix up some peat moss with humus (compost + ewc) and a little pearlite... a very light mix. Plants are small they don't need much to get going.

Wood chips in order for them to break down, require a lot of nitrogen to decompose and the N gets locked up in that process. Thereby starving your plants of N. What does an N deficiency look like - your pictures!

Trying to help... instead of wood chips sawdust is a "little" better... wood in general needs to be composted BEFORE using in a garden. This problem is exacerbated by the fact you are using the chips in a container.

IF the purpose of the wood chips is to help retain moisture, there are a lot better alternatives. You won't get past the nitrogen lock up tho, is short order the plants will likely be dead.

I use sawdust (wood pellets from a stove) mixed in with rabbit poop and compost that for a year or until it's completely broken down into dark black compost. I don't use "mulch" and if I did it would be a mix of compost and peat moss.. nothing else.

 

[hillbill]

Great... wood chips will do exactly what's in your pic to your plants... this ain't noting new! Anyone suggesting to use wood chips ... get a 2nd opinion.

Get rid of the wood chips and mix up some peat moss with humus (compost + ewc) and a little pearlite... a very light mix. Plants are small they don't need much to get going.

Wood chips in order for them to break down, require a lot of nitrogen to decompose and the N gets locked up in that process. Thereby starving your plants of N. What does an N deficiency look like - your pictures!

Trying to help... instead of wood chips sawdust is a "little" better... wood in general needs to be composted BEFORE using in a garden. This problem is exacerbated by the fact you are using the chips in a container.

IF the purpose of the wood chips is to help retain moisture, there are a lot better alternatives. You won't get past the nitrogen lock up tho, is short order the plants will likely be dead.

I use sawdust (wood pellets from a stove) mixed in with rabbit poop and compost that for a year or until it's completely broken down into dark black compost. I don't use "mulch" and if I did it would be a mix of compost and peat moss.. nothing else.

Thought those chips looked like composted pine bark. Big difference wood chips and composted bark which I have in all my mixes. Even straw would be better than wood chips. Straw really is not bad mulch.

 

[Rasta Roy]

Great... wood chips will do exactly what's in your pic to your plants... this ain't noting new! Anyone suggesting to use wood chips ... get a 2nd opinion.

Get rid of the wood chips and mix up some peat moss with humus (compost + ewc) and a little pearlite... a very light mix. Plants are small they don't need much to get going.

Wood chips in order for them to break down, require a lot of nitrogen to decompose and the N gets locked up in that process. Thereby starving your plants of N. What does an N deficiency look like - your pictures!

Trying to help... instead of wood chips sawdust is a "little" better... wood in general needs to be composted BEFORE using in a garden. This problem is exacerbated by the fact you are using the chips in a container.

IF the purpose of the wood chips is to help retain moisture, there are a lot better alternatives. You won't get past the nitrogen lock up tho, is short order the plants will likely be dead.

I use sawdust (wood pellets from a stove) mixed in with rabbit poop and compost that for a year or until it's completely broken down into dark black compost. I don't use "mulch" and if I did it would be a mix of compost and peat moss.. nothing else.

The professionals have weighed in on the mulching with wood chip issue (actual horticulturalists not cannabis growers) and they determined that a top layer wood chip mulch will not sequester a significant enough amount of nitrogen to effect plant growth. Now, if the chips are mixed into the soil, that's a different story. Then they have to be charged with N or they will sequester it.

Wood chips as mulch will contribute to making a soil more alkaline over time as it breaks down, so if growing in a bed or plot with a neutral soil you might want to consider other options! I prefer straw mulch for container gardening personally but that can come with its own challenges if you're unfamiliar with the source.

 

[bobrown14]

Looked like bark or wood chips... I think the op confirmed it was wood chips.

Have to ask yourself what is this amendment for?? Even if pine bark..... pine bark sure if its shredded and composted = composted pine bark fines. Not splitting hairs that's a huge difference.

I ask why put in a container, be it pine bark fines, uncomposted pine bark or wood chips.

Anytime I add amendments I ask myself why am I adding this in.... I should have a very good reason with maybe a little science and/or experience to back up my choices...

I've seen this problem the OP is having before.. it's common unfortunately. Using wood chips or similar for top dress .... its kills the plants it was meant to protect. Landscapers use that stuff so they don't have to weed... that should say something right there. We are growing weeds after all, no?

 

[bobrown14]

The professionals have weighed in on the mulching with wood chip issue (actual horticulturalists not cannabis growers) and they determined that a top layer wood chip mulch will not sequester a significant enough amount of nitrogen to effect plant growth. Now, if the chips are mixed into the soil, that's a different story. Then they have to be charged with N or they will sequester it.

Wood chips as mulch will contribute to making a soil more alkaline over time as it breaks down, so if growing in a bed or plot with a neutral soil you might want to consider other options! I prefer straw mulch for container gardening personally but that can come with its own challenges if you're unfamiliar with the source.

I agree with the part about using something different for a top dress if thats what you need... probably better to grow a companion crop instead ... pretty sure that's what the farmers are doing these days instead of tilling the soil. New plants grow, shade the companion crops, the companion crops die back and fertilize the soil and help retain moisture.

I'm not aware of any "professionals" or horticulturalists that advocate wood chips as a top dress in a container much less say an outdoor garden. Straw.... yes, wood chips not so much. I've seen this work at N sequestration first hand... (not in my gardens) but neighbors that maybe listened to someone advocating some sort of wood chip silliness. I've also seen how long a pile of wood chips (not mixed into soil) takes to break down and compost. It's takes 5-7 YEARS.

Lets think about that and a container.... those 2 don't go together. What are we going to do when we need to amend the soil in the container? What are we going to do when we need new soil? Both of those scenarios are bound to be needed before the wood chips are composted. Now dump the container with the wood chips out now we have an issue with the leftover soil with wood chips... I can't compost it because the wood chips take several years to break down. I could compost it then screen all the wood chips out...meh.

 

[aus.jak]

what about lupin mulch is that any good

 

[greasemonkeymann]

I agree with the part about using something different for a top dress if thats what you need... probably better to grow a companion crop instead ... pretty sure that's what the farmers are doing these days instead of tilling the soil. New plants grow, shade the companion crops, the companion crops die back and fertilize the soil and help retain moisture.

I'm not aware of any "professionals" or horticulturalists that advocate wood chips as a top dress in a container much less say an outdoor garden. Straw.... yes, wood chips not so much. I've seen this work at N sequestration first hand... (not in my gardens) but neighbors that maybe listened to someone advocating some sort of wood chip silliness. I've also seen how long a pile of wood chips (not mixed into soil) takes to break down and compost. It's takes 5-7 YEARS.

Lets think about that and a container.... those 2 don't go together. What are we going to do when we need to amend the soil in the container? What are we going to do when we need new soil? Both of those scenarios are bound to be needed before the wood chips are composted. Now dump the container with the wood chips out now we have an issue with the leftover soil with wood chips... I can't compost it because the wood chips take several years to break down. I could compost it then screen all the wood chips out...meh.

whats up man, I've been gone for a bit, don't remember you from before...
you seem to be a good addition to the organic area my man, your advice is well thought out, and well written, It's always a welcome sight to see advice that's accurate on this forum.

Oh, and not that it matters much, but I can get wood chips to melt in about 6 months or so, if you layer them right and turn the pile right, they disappear pretty quick, but on their own and not being turned or layered with high nitrogen inputs? yea that will def take forever to break down.
heres a lil link on some more info for anyone interested.

http://extension.oregonstate.edu/question-of-the-week/wood-chips-mulch

as to the nitrogen being sequestered...
with a carbon to nitrogen ratio of nearly 400 to one, i can see your concern, and if it was sawdust or finer particulates I would be worried too, but on top of the soil it simply doesn't have enough contact with the soil to sequester enough nitrogen to make much of a difference, not to mention that even if it did, the fact that adding nitrogen to plants is the easiest of any nutrients wouldn't really make me concerned.
rice hulls and biochar do the same things too, only not as bad.
I do use tiny chunks of cardboard in my summer soils (to keep the redworms from dying off in the 110 deg weather) and those have a ratio of like 325 to 350 to one, but I don't use a lot of that in the soil, maybe 5% at most.

That all being said I don't really use wood chips for much in my plants, if I need anything like that I just use rotted tree log chunks that are well beyond composting, and also act like lil water sponges to keep the soil moist.
also they add BIMs, and are nice little condominiums for the microbes as well.

 

[bobrown14]

Hey there GM thanks for the kind words... been at this organic gardening thing for a pretty long time so most of my knowledge is from experience and trying different things blah blah.

Now that said, there's a very good book I've read that spells out the reason for wood chips and any raw composting material like wood chips, green manure like seaweeds etc.
The book is "Seaweed in agriculture & horticulture" by W A Stephenson whom is the
guy that started Maxicrop. They make Kelp Meal and seaweed extracts in bottled and powder form.

He explains it very well in detail how when adding in something like raw seaweed or wood chips and even straw to some extent will sequester nitrogen in the short term say a month (for straw and kelp/kelp meals).
The way its explained is the micro-organisms use the N in the soil to help break down the raw material input. But after the breakdown there will actually be more N available that was added in with the new raw materials.

Wood chips as you mentioned take a pretty long time to break down. Kelp meal is a much better option as it also holds in water helps with water retention and soil tilth and also has all the macro and micro nutrients a plant needs to grow well ans strive.

This short term N sequestration lasts about a month and is why a lot of folks suggest "cooking" your soil before planting ....and it's what I do. Also I add in some ACT to get the micro-organisms a good head start as well.

My favorite N addition to my compost piles are Comfrey leaves. We have several plants that we cut down to the crown say 6 times a season (zone 6b). That fires up the compost pile and only takes about 2 weeks to break down completely. Can layer Comfrey on top of a potted plant as well to get the same thing as adding wood chips but the Comfrey leaves break down VERY fast in a "mature" soil, a few days is all it takes. Amazing really.