Ducting Co2 from outside is it likely I'll be detected?

[James1982]

I think a lot of information I've provided has been overlooked.

I plan on using a co2 controller which turns on a water pump from my pond when co2 levels get below a certain level.

This will cause the burner to turn on heat the water and then turn off when required.

It is a propane burner not natural gas.

My AC vents directly into the chimney stack. It's a two hose portable AC 24000 BTU so it keeps air in the room. mini split isn't an option here.

The room is definitely sealed well I lined the entire room with a massive pond liner on the floor and plastic sheeting around the walls on top of kingspan. Door is sealed like a fridge door with the silicone seal.

If I run the co2 burner indoors I'd need to find a pond pump that can lift the water 10m in the air from my pond which could be hard to find.
I'd still need a pipe going up my house to bring the water in and out.

Unless my AC is good enough I could heat my 500l res with the burner and then use my chiller to take the heat out of res into the air and then the Ac takes it out of the air.

I have no way to really calculate if 24000 btu is enough though

 

[ttystikk]

I think a lot of information I've provided has been overlooked.

I plan on using a co2 controller which turns on a water pump from my pond when co2 levels get below a certain level.

This will cause the burner to turn on heat the water and then turn off when required.

It is a propane burner not natural gas.

My AC vents directly into the chimney stack. It's a two hose portable AC 24000 BTU so it keeps air in the room. mini split isn't an option here.

The room is definitely sealed well I lined the entire room with a massive pond liner on the floor and plastic sheeting around the walls on top of kingspan. Door is sealed like a fridge door with the silicone seal.

If I run the co2 burner indoors I'd need to find a pond pump that can lift the water 10m in the air from my pond which could be hard to find.
I'd still need a pipe going up my house to bring the water in and out.

Unless my AC is good enough I could heat my 500l res with the burner and then use my chiller to take the heat out of res into the air and then the Ac takes it out of the air.

I have no way to really calculate if 24000 btu is enough though

That's quite a tall head for a pump, but if you manage to get it up and through once and keep the return line underwater you should be able to take advantage of the siphon effect to help your pump.

To calculate Watts of heat vs BTu of cooling, 1W=3.414BTu. Thus 10kW of lighting needs 34k BTu of cooling and that's without the 20% overhead you'll want. You're gonna need more AC- and a dual hose portable isn't going to be terribly efficient.

The heat generated by your burner will totally overwhelm your chiller, forget that idea. Maybe a big tub outside the room full of water? A buddy used an old hot tub shell sitting outside for this purpose once, lol

 

[James1982]

The part you mention about 10kw light = 10kw of heat I don't agree with though.

Basic physics the law of conservation of energy. Energy cannot be created or destroyed only transferred.

10,000w of light 50% may be automatically created during production of light so you have 5000w of actual light energy and 5000w of heat energy.

Of that 5000w of light energy some of it may bounce around the room warming objects. That could account for less than 10% if you manage canopy well.
The plants convert this light energy into growth. Plants do waste some energy as heat during this growth but very little.

A very high portion of the 5000w is converted into growth if what you say is true it breaks the law of physics from what I can understand of it

 

[James1982]

I have considered using a pump to pump the water up but that's why I started this debate.

If I have the option pump water up or duct co2 up... I'd prefer to duct the co2 As it's easier and won't cause heat issues

 

[ttystikk]

The part you mention about 10kw light = 10kw of heat I don't agree with though.

Basic physics the law of conservation of energy. Energy cannot be created or destroyed only transferred.

10,000w of light 50% may be automatically created during production of light so you have 5000w of actual light energy and 5000w of heat energy.

Of that 5000w of light energy some of it may bounce around the room warming objects. That could account for less than 10% if you manage canopy well.
The plants convert this light energy into growth. Plants do waste some energy as heat during this growth but very little.

A very high portion of the 5000w is converted into growth if what you say is true it breaks the law of physics from what I can understand of it

Sorry, man, this is flat wrong. It doesn't matter if it's a 10,000W worth of toaster oven, LED lights or supercomputer. Watts in is heat out, period.

Conservation of matter and energy demands it. Light is just another form of energy. The only part that won't become heat the moment it lands on something is that fraction landing on leaves and creates water vapor via transpiration.

As I said before, the energy savings is in the ability to run lower Watts/ft² to get the same results.

 

[ttystikk]

I have considered using a pump to pump the water up but that's why I started this debate.

If I have the option pump water up or duct co2 up... I'd prefer to duct the co2 As it's easier and won't cause heat issues

You can try this, but you'll need to exhaust some air from the room or it won't go in.

 

[James1982]

Sorry, man, this is flat wrong. It doesn't matter if it's a 10,000W worth of toaster oven, LED lights or supercomputer. Watts in is heat out, period.

Conservation of matter and energy demands it. Light is just another form of energy. The only part that won't become heat the moment it lands on something is that fraction landing on leaves and creates water vapor via transpiration.

As I said before, the energy savings is in the ability to run lower Watts/ft² to get the same results.

So what about conservation of energy - energy that is stored in the plant?

Or are you telling me that in the wild when cows and horses DEPEND On grass (energy) to live it's made out of thin air?

 

[ttystikk]

So what about conservation of energy - energy that is stored in the plant?

Or are you telling me that in the wild when cows and horses DEPEND On grass (energy) to live it's made out of thin air?

That's a tiny fraction of the energy expended by the lighting. A rounding error at best.

 

[James1982]

That's a tiny fraction of the energy expended by the lighting. A rounding error at best.

Your stating that the plant uses very little energy that simply can't be true.

The energy that the plant uses is converted from light into growth. If we provide 10,000w and only 1% was actually used by the plants we would be better off growing outside in a greenhouse in cold climates.

I guess I'll just have to run my setup and see how it goes. So far my 24000 btu ac can cool 10,000w of Led to 27c easily enough illl just add the burner and if I need to I'll increase the ac

 

[Toohighmf]

It’s funny because I’m running about 4960w of LED’s, a water cooled co2 burner. And a quest dual 110 dehumidifier. I have a 2 ton mini split, and I’m considering running a 3 ton to insure I have the cooling power. A portable AC unit almost creates more btu’s than it cools; even with insulated duct which I doubt you are using. You’d be better off with a 3 ton window unit.. Mounted in the fireplace lol.
While Ttysik and I don’t always agree on everything, he’s been rock solid with his info to you. He and I are really only trying to help. I don’t want to toot my own horn, but after 25 years of indoor growing, owning 3 hydro stores, being an ex national tech rep for advanced nutrients, and now a grow consultancy/contractor firm working with some pretty big entities, I’d like to think I have a pretty good understanding of all the requirements of success in this industry. I strongly suggest you take our experience and advice seriously.

 

[deno]

Would a hot water heater running in your backyard attract attention? Almost certainly, because it's so unusual. I'm not sure anyone would put two and two together, and think 'grow room', but it would look odd. I think it also somewhat depends of the type of area you live in. Do people commonly heat their ponds? I think most people who do use submersible electric heaters. Your cover story might not cut it, since whoever you were telling it to would already be looking closer. As far as a pipe leading into your house, once you tell them it's for the pond the pipe makes no sense. Might make more sense just to run hot water into your house from there. I don't think it would look out of place in a poverty ridden area, or maybe in the country where jerry rigging stuff is common. On the other hand, LEO might think it's a still. If you live in a nice area, though, it's going to look really odd. Build a shed, maybe.

 

[pop22]

If you need CO2, do it right! Get a tank and controller they are not expensive and don't take that much room. Mushroom bags and anything like that are all bullshit and a waste of time and money. Getting set up for CO2 is easy and compared to what people spend on lights, or even nutrients, its a bargain! And in a sealed run with LOTS of light and the right temps, 30% increase in production is possible with the right strains.

I have custom built cobs 100w per square foot. I recently sealed the room.
So I do need co2 I'm just trying to think of best way to do the co2.

I was trying to see if people on here could give there opinion on wether the drainage pipe going from the propane burner to the indoor room from outside would look suspicious

 

[HydroRed]

Make your own SAFE co2 generator out of sugar, yeast, water and a bucket. No heat signatures, risk of fires or risk of exceeding the safe Co2 limit to humans.

 

[pop22]

Consider your going to pump in a shit ton of heat also, and with that much light, heat will already be an issue

I think a lot of information I've provided has been overlooked.

I plan on using a co2 controller which turns on a water pump from my pond when co2 levels get below a certain level.

This will cause the burner to turn on heat the water and then turn off when required.

It is a propane burner not natural gas.

My AC vents directly into the chimney stack. It's a two hose portable AC 24000 BTU so it keeps air in the room. mini split isn't an option here.

The room is definitely sealed well I lined the entire room with a massive pond liner on the floor and plastic sheeting around the walls on top of kingspan. Door is sealed like a fridge door with the silicone seal.

If I run the co2 burner indoors I'd need to find a pond pump that can lift the water 10m in the air from my pond which could be hard to find.
I'd still need a pipe going up my house to bring the water in and out.

Unless my AC is good enough I could heat my 500l res with the burner and then use my chiller to take the heat out of res into the air and then the Ac takes it out of the air.

I have no way to really calculate if 24000 btu is enough though

 

[Billiam76]

The only issue I had was stealth.

Since CO2 is used in welding how about setting up a welding table near the tanks outside?

 

[fn217]

Make your own SAFE co2 generator out of sugar, yeast, water and a bucket. No heat signatures, risk of fires or risk of exceeding the safe Co2 limit to humans.

I disagree with this. As others have stated here, and in my experience with "DIY CO2" in the aquarium hobby, the yeast method results in such an inconsistent and unpredictable CO2 creation that it really just isn't worth it. The hassle of bottled or propane based CO2 generation would be dwarfed by the annoyance of dealing with yeast based CO2.

I mean, how do you stop the release of CO2 during the dark period? Move the bag/mix out of the room? Seems like a great way to cause mistakes, forgetting to remove the bag, forgetting to put it back, too much mixture causing CO2 to rise too high, etc etc.

So much easier to just use a proper CO2 generation method with a controller.

OP, honestly if it's not the end of the world, just use bottled or propane. I get carrying bottles up and down your house will suck, but it's probably the best route IMO.

 

[cannabiscrusader]

Put a PVC t in line with the exhaust from the burner, then two dampers after the t and one after the bull (or middle of the t to your room. This way you can control how much goes into your room.

If this burner is already exhausted outside, how would you be detected for using it?

 

[coreywebster]

So what about conservation of energy - energy that is stored in the plant?

Or are you telling me that in the wild when cows and horses DEPEND On grass (energy) to live it's made out of thin air?

Look up Photosynthetic efficiency. Roughly speaking of all plants under the sun the leaf efficiency is 2-5%. Under indoor lighting with its narrow spectrum, more of it been 400-700nm we might get 8% of all light falling on the actual leaf converted to photosynthesis, of which some will be used in transpiration. So 92%+ will eventually turn to heat while the other is used as chemical energy.
Sucks ey!

 

[SPLFreak808]

If we provide 10,000w and only 1% was actually used by the plants we would be better off growing outside in a greenhouse in cold climates.

Article in Photochemistry and Photobiology 53(4):545 - 548

Abstract—Within the ideal assumptions: (1) two Photosystems for photosynthetic fixation of CO2, (2) all solar photons with Λ≥ 700 nm are absorbed, (3) the photon requirement is 8 for each CO2 molecule fixed and O2 molecule evolved and (4) the principal stable product of photosynthesis is d-glucose, the theoretical maximum efficiency of conversion of light to stored chemical energy in green-plant type (oxygen-evolving) photosynthesis in bright sunlight is calculated to be 13.0%. Thermodynamic arguments are presented which indicate that a photosynthetic system with one Photosystem would be highly unlikely to be able to drive each electron from water to evolve O2 and reduce CO2. The practical maximum efficiency of photosynthesis under atmospheric conditions is estimated to be 3–6%, The practical maximum efficiency under optimum conditions is estimated to be 8-9%.

 

[Billiam76]

Look up Photosynthetic efficiency. Roughly speaking of all plants under the sun the leaf efficiency is 2-5%. Under indoor lighting with its narrow spectrum, more of it been 400-700nm we might get 8% of all light falling on the actual leaf converted to photosynthesis, of which some will be used in transpiration. So 92%+ will eventually turn to heat while the other is used as chemical energy.
Sucks ey!

Just an aside:
A blurb in this month's SN ( Science News, a bi weekly) hits directly on this subject of pathetic leaf efficiency. If you start with this: https://www.windows2universe.org/?page=/earth/climate/sun_radiation_at_earth.html as the beginning to how powerful the sun really is.....