Buds quality LEDs VS HPS

[TacoMac]

wouldnt the LED end up being cheaper in the long run though since you dont have to change out bulbs every 6 months? Also we have the savings in air conditioning too. This of course assumes you dont buy the newest best chip every time it drops lol

That's an old wives tale as well.

The heat generated by an LED fixture is actually harder to get rid of than an HPS. You can completely seal an HPS from the environment in a small tube and the tube is all you have to cool. You can't do that with LED fixtures. They're just too large and spread out.

Secondly, that "change your bulb every 6 months" myth only apples to industrial growers that grow round the fucking clock, 24/7/365.

For the small, personal use only grower like me, it's more like once every 3 years. Yes, years. Again the math for the non-reading:

Two bulbs - one HPS one MH.

The MH bulb runs about 20 dollars and is good for 10,000 hours. 18 hours on, 5 week veg = 630 hours per grow. You should replace the bulb about 65% through it's rated life, so that means you should replace it ever 6,500 hours. That means you are going to get 10 grows out of that one bulb. Or, in my case, about four years worth of service.

The HPS runs about 20 dollars as well and is rated at 24,000 hours. 12 hours on for 9 weeks on the average grow. That means you're using it for 756 hours per grow. Replace the HPS at 60% because they tend to drop off a bit quicker in spectrum than that MH bulbs do. That means you replace it at 14,400 hours. That means you get 19 grows out of one bulb or about 5.5 years in my case.

Everything said about power consumption and heat are basically myths cooked up by fangirls that bought a COB and have to make the most ridiculous arguments and bullshit they can to justify the expense.

There are really one three reasons to buy a COB:

1. Money is no object and you simply don't care.
2. You live in Hawaii (the power costs there are RIDICULOUS to the point COB's are a LOT cheaper to run.)
3. You are a large licensed grower.

Larged licensed growers love COB's for the power savings. The costs when you start racking up 12 fixtures is a lot. What's more, since they're more efficient that often saves any additional need for power upgrades in a building that can cost you thousands of dollars up front.

That's it in a nutshell for about the 20th time.

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

That's an old wives tale as well.

The heat generated by an LED fixture is actually harder to get rid of than an HPS. You can completely seal an HPS from the environment in a small tube and the tube is all you have to cool. You can't do that with LED fixtures. They're just too large and spread out.

Secondly, that "change your bulb every 6 months" myth only apples to industrial growers that grow round the fucking clock, 24/7/365.

For the small, personal use only grower like me, it's more like once every 3 years. Yes, years. Again the math for the non-reading:

Two bulbs - one HPS one MH.

The MH bulb runs about 20 dollars and is good for 10,000 hours. 18 hours on, 5 week veg = 630 hours per grow. You should replace the bulb about 65% through it's rated life, so that means you should replace it ever 6,500 hours. That means you are going to get 10 grows out of that one bulb. Or, in my case, about four years worth of service.

The HPS runs about 20 dollars as well and is rated at 24,000 hours. 12 hours on for 9 weeks on the average grow. That means you're using it for 756 hours per grow. Replace the HPS at 60% because they tend to drop off a bit quicker in spectrum than that MH bulbs do. That means you replace it at 14,400 hours. That means you get 19 grows out of one bulb or about 5.5 years in my case.

Everything said about power consumption and heat are basically myths cooked up by fangirls that bought a COB and have to make the most ridiculous arguments and bullshit they can to justify the expense.

There are really one three reasons to buy a COB:

1. Money is no object and you simply don't care.
2. You live in Hawaii (the power costs there are RIDICULOUS to the point COB's are a LOT cheaper to run.)
3. You are a large licensed grower.

Larged licensed growers love COB's for the power savings. The costs when you start racking up 12 fixtures is a lot. What's more, since they're more efficient that often saves any additional need for power upgrades in a building that can cost you thousands of dollars up front.

That's it in a nutshell for about the 20th time.

I have been following your argument and agree with many points but I replace my Hortilux super hps bulbs by 10 months as they have degraded more than I like according to my cheap light meter and how the plants grow.

I have found for best results this is necessary.

Metal halide degrades much faster.

Cmh is supposed to last 2 years but we will see.

 

[see4]

quantum board 120....no heat sink !!!

interesting, i will have to take a look at those.

 

[see4]

I'm talking about quality, ready to go, out of the box fixtures and nothing more. You McGuivering some bullshit doesn't enter into it.

It doesn't enter into your argument because it completely derails it.

The fact is I can build a COB/QB setup for only slightly more than a mh/hps setup, and whats more, is I don't have to concern myself with spending a ton on cooling.

Sorry that facts ruined your argument. Honestly.

 

[Yodaweed]

It doesn't enter into your argument because it completely derails it.

The fact is I can build a COB/QB setup for only slightly more than a mh/hps setup, and whats more, is I don't have to concern myself with spending a ton on cooling.

Sorry that facts ruined your argument. Honestly.

Cooling is based on watts used, not the type of lighting you use, if you use 1000w of LEDs that's still 3410 BTU of heat.

 

[see4]

Not true with “white” led. The gains are only in electrical efficiency to amount of light.

Modern Grow specific hps has an excellent flowering spectrum. Metal halide is far less efficient. And has a better spectrum for veg or leafy crops.

What do you mean by "white" led? Do you meaning anything between the spectrums of 2700k and 5000k?

LED, light emitting diodes are very specific in what spectrums they produce. That is their intent. HPS produces a lot of light photons, many of which are not used by the plant, and therefore wasted.

 

[see4]

Cooling is based on watts used, not the type of lighting you use, if you use 1000w of LEDs that's still 3410 BTU of heat.

Absolutely not true. But I think first we need to agree about the efficiency of LEDs over HPS. Once we can agree on that, we can have a baseline for discussing how LEDs are easier to manage heat than HPS.

 

[Yodaweed]

Absolutely not true. But I think first we need to agree about the efficiency of LEDs over HPS. Once we can agree on that, we can have a baseline for discussing how LEDs are easier to manage heat than HPS.

Wait what? You think heat is based off the type of lighting you are using and not the amount of energy being put into the system? I'd do some more research if i was you because you are sorely mistaken.

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

What do you mean by "white" led? Do you meaning anything between the spectrums of 2700k and 5000k?

LED, light emitting diodes are very specific in what spectrums they produce. That is their intent. HPS produces a lot of light photons, many of which are not used by the plant, and therefore wasted.

White meaning full spectrum like cobs. The temp is quite deceiving just like hid temp ratings. They are the temp metal heats up to and gets to be a certain color. Not the spectrum of the light.

Different bulbs with different specs have been labeled the same temp for years.

If you look at the graphs you will see “white” or natural looking full spectrum light is made up of green, blue and red spectrums. They are heavy in green just like hps. And there are peaks and valleys. Same basic problem as hps as far as wasted light waves.

Thing about hps that is being ignored in led arguments is that plants respond to the strongest wavelength present. I linked university proof earlier of these facts. And how red and blue affect plant growth differently. HPS has a stronger red spike which happens to be excellent for flowering. The standard 3500k cob spectrum I have seen is more like a veg spectrum. More balanced between blue and red and the red much lower per watt than hps.

The university of Utah states the Phillips 3100k cmh bulb has the best spectrum for plant growth and flowering as a single light source. Not a full spectrum led. And the cmh has some uv a and b. Led does not. But plants need it.

That is why Led is going to be engineered like blurple was. But with the correct ratio of the colors the plants use specifically. The universities are testing to make Led standards for crop production. The university of Michigan is a major player in Greenhouse and indoor production lighting science.

No cobs or full spectrum lighting is even considered in any testing I can find for horticulture. It happens to be old tech already.

The difference between hid and led will be much greater than you are arguing soon. Much more efficient and complete.

An educated buyer would wait for the specific lighting.

 

[Yodaweed]

White meaning full spectrum like cobs. The temp is quite deceiving just like hid temp ratings. They are the temp metal heats up to and gets to be a certain color. Not the spectrum of the light.

Different bulbs with different specs have been labeled the same temp for years.

If you look at the graphs you will see “white” or natural looking full spectrum light is made up of green, blue and red spectrums. They are heavy in green just like hps. And there are peaks and valleys. Same basic problem as hps as far as wasted light waves.

Thing about hps that is being ignored in led arguments is that plants respond to the strongest wavelength present. I linked university proof earlier of these facts. And how red and blue affect plant growth differently. HPS has a stronger red spike which happens to be excellent for flowering. The standard 3500k cob spectrum I have seen is more like a veg spectrum. More balanced between blue and red and the red much lower per watt than hps.

The university of Utah states the Phillips 3100k cmh bulb has the best spectrum for plant growth and flowering as a single light source. Not a full spectrum led. And the cmh has some uv a and b. Led does not. But plants need it.

That is why Led is going to be engineered like blurple was. But with the correct ratio of the colors the plants use specifically. The universities are testing to make Led standards for crop production. The university of Michigan is a major player in Greenhouse and indoor production lighting science.

No cobs or full spectrum lighting is even considered in any testing I can find for horticulture. It happens to be old tech already.

The difference between hid and led will be much greater than you are arguing soon. Much more efficient and complete.

An educated buyer would wait for the specific lighting.

He must not have been around for targeted spectrum LEDs or he would definitely be aware of what a white LED is.

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

Wait what? You think heat is based off the type of lighting you are using and not the amount of energy being put into the system? I'd do some more research if i was you because you are sorely mistaken.

It is to a degree. If the light source puts out more light per watt then it runs cooler watt for watt.

Also heat above the lamps is easier to deal with than radiant canopy heat.

But I do agree with an air cooled lamp hid can be set up more ways and can run cooler.

I have never had a heat issue. I followed the set up suggestions in Indoor gardening and Grow books.

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

He must not have been around for targeted spectrum LEDs or he would definitely be aware of what a white LED is.

I think he was just clarifying what I meant. I don’t really know what they are called.

 

[Yodaweed]

It is to a degree. If the light source puts out more light per watt then it runs cooler watt for watt.

Also heat above the lamps is easier to deal with than radiant canopy heat.

But I do agree with an air cooled lamp hid can be set up more ways and can run cooler.

I have never had a heat issue. I followed the set up suggestions in Indoor gardening and Grow books.

All watts turn to heat, plants can't absorb or make heat, nearly 100% wattage used gets turned to heat. Has NOTHING to do with effiecency of lighting, all the photons get turned to heat in an enclosed system. 1000w hps outputs same heat as 1000w space heater.

a watt is just another form of energy, each watt produces ~ 3.41 BTU of heat.

Research radiant energy if you do not believe me, i believe it's the first law of thermodynamics that backs this up.

The first law of thermodynamics is a version of thelaw of conservation of energy, adapted forthermodynamic systems. The law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system is constant; energy can be transformed from one form to another, but can be neither created nor destroyed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics




All energy can be measured in joules

J = watts x seconds



Since joules are a measurement of energy they can be converted to BTU's 1 joule = 0.000947817 BTU, directly showing how much heat a watt uses, approx 3.41 BTU per watt.

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

All watts turn to heat, plants can't absorb or make heat, nearly 100% wattage used gets turned to heat. Has NOTHING to do with effiecency of lighting, all the photons get turned to heat in an enclosed system.

You are incorrect. You are not considering the radiant heat from ir in hid bulbs.

Led does not have that heat. And only the energy that does not produce light is heat. So if the light is more efficient it runs cooler. And the only light that is heat is ir.

Theoretically you should be able to match wattage with an led and and hps and the led should still run cooler. And produce more product.

You keep repeating the same info even when shown you are wrong.

I am no cob pusher or owner but I am here to learn. You should listen more. These guys know a lot about light and electricity.

And while I know they are selling stuff the company guys here are so awesome for explaining how this stuff really works.

 

[Yodaweed]

You are incorrect. You are not considering the radiant heat from ir in hid bulbs.

Led does not have that heat. And only the energy that does not produce light is heat. So if the light is more efficient it runs cooler. And the only light that is heat is ir.

Theoretically you should be able to match wattage with an led and and hps and the led should still run cooler. And produce more product.

You keep repeating the same info even when shown you are wrong.

I am no cob pusher or owner but I am here to learn. You should listen more. These guys know a lot about light and electricity.

And while I know they are selling stuff the company guys here are so awesome for explaining how this stuff really works.

IR heat does not offset total heat produced, the energy in the system of a 600w light is the same as another 600w light, the only thing that matters is how much energy you put into the system. You obviously do not understand basic physics if you are arguing with this.

https://www.rollitup.org/t/heat-from-1200w-of-1212s-vero-29s-cxm-22-cxb3590-compared-to-2x-600w.936071/#post-13406372
Read that thread for further understanding.

If i were you i'd do some studying on physics you really don't have a proper understanding of energy cannot be created nor destroyed.

 

[see4]

All watts turn to heat, plants can't absorb or make heat, nearly 100% wattage used gets turned to heat. Has NOTHING to do with effiecency of lighting, all the photons get turned to heat in an enclosed system. 1000w hps outputs same heat as 1000w space heater.

a watt is just another form of energy, each watt produces ~ 3.41 BTU of heat.

Research radiant energy if you do not believe me, i believe it's the first law of thermodynamics that backs this up.

The first law of thermodynamics is a version of thelaw of conservation of energy, adapted forthermodynamic systems. The law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system is constant; energy can be transformed from one form to another, but can be neither created nor destroyed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics




All energy can be measured in joules

J = watts x seconds



Since joules are a measurement of energy they can be converted to BTU's 1 joule = 0.000947817 BTU, directly showing how much heat a watt uses, approx 3.41 BTU per watt.

I'm not debating that watts, energy, is heat.

But when was the last time you saw an HPS bulb wrapped in heat sink?

You have to manage the heat that is being emitted from the source. In the case of bulbs you need hoods and fans and likely some sort of spot cooler. With LEDs you need a heat sink and a couple small computer fans.

I'm talking more about heat management rather than watts ~ heat.

 

[Yodaweed]

I'm not debating that watts, energy, is heat.

But when was the last time you saw an HPS bulb wrapped in heat sink?

You have to manage the heat that is being emitted from the source. In the case of bulbs you need hoods and fans and likely some sort of spot cooler. With LEDs you need a heat sink and a couple small computer fans.

I'm talking more about heat management rather than watts ~ heat.

The heat comes out of the heat sink with LEDs, it's just a different form of heat dissappation, you two have no understanding of energy and heat you both need some physics lessions

read this thread please you really do not understand basic physics and i'm not a school teacher.

https://www.rollitup.org/t/heat-from-1200w-of-1212s-vero-29s-cxm-22-cxb3590-compared-to-2x-600w.936071/#post-13406372

Here's some quotes to help you two

in a room 1200W of anything is 1200W

will produce the same amount of heat

cobs will give you more usable light for that same 1200W, or an equal amount of light for a lesser wattage, like 800W

Yes, good LEDs put out more light.

That light eventually also turns into heat..
Photosynthesis while endothermic is very inefficient so negligible.


Energy that's stored inside the plant doesn't turn into heat (only a very tiny amount).
So 1200W of LED practically produces just as much heat as 1200W of HPS.

But the radiation of the 2 sources is different.
HPS has some IR which will radiate right on your plants and you can assume all of that will turn into heat the moment it hits your plant.
So even if room temp is equal, plants under HPS will have warmer leaves because of the IR radiating on the leaves. Something to consider.

Even funnier if you're trying to grow with incandescent, should be very hard since incandescent bulbs are extremely efficient IR producers and will easily fry your plants even if ambient temperature isn't very high.

Because the light will also turn into heat eventually, and since that light stays in your room it becomes heat in your room.

Photosynthesis stores some energy inside the plant (doesn't become heat), but photosynthesis is rather inefficienct so you can safely ignore it.
So 1200W will always be 1200W.

You have 2 different heat types when dealing with HID vs LED...... That said the same wattage in LED will produce the same heat but you will more easily manage the LED side as the waste heat is directly transmitted to the air as with HID the waste heat will be in the form of Infrared hear which will soak everything the light touches with additional heat...... So to answer what you are asking it will be easier to manage the LED side especially since you want to run 5+° warmer with LED to achieve optimal leaf surface temperatures vs HID.

 

[see4]

The heat comes out of the heat sink with LEDs, it's just a different form of heat dissappation, you two have no understanding of energy and heat you both need some physics lessions

read this thread please you really do not understand basic physics and i'm not a school teacher.

https://www.rollitup.org/t/heat-from-1200w-of-1212s-vero-29s-cxm-22-cxb3590-compared-to-2x-600w.936071/#post-13406372

Here's some quotes to help you two

Oddly, I ran with LEDs, about 400w of it in one tent, and the other tent had a single 600w hps bulb. I needed a spot cooler and a vortex fan to control the hps tent, and nothing but some heatsinks and osc. fan in the LED tent. Both had 4 plants. And both produced roughly 360grams of head stash bud.

I hear what you are saying, but real life has dictated different results.

Keeping in mind that 1200w of LED produces much more than 1200w of HPS/MH -- I don't know about CMH, I've never used that bulb, so I can't speak to its performance.

If we are speaking of efficiency only, nothing beats the great outdoors.

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

IR heat does not offset total heat produced, the energy in the system of a 600w light is the same as another 600w light, the only thing that matters is how much energy you put into the system. You obviously do not understand basic physics if you are arguing with this.

https://www.rollitup.org/t/heat-from-1200w-of-1212s-vero-29s-cxm-22-cxb3590-compared-to-2x-600w.936071/#post-13406372
Read that thread for further understanding.

If i were you i'd do some studying on physics you really don't have a proper understanding of energy cannot be created nor destroyed.

Lol. The energy is turned into light. The heat is a byproduct.

You need the physics lesson. And some basics in electronics would help. I am pretty well versed.

Why do you fight this so hard that you lose your wits about it?

You read threads and blogs and ad copy and show it as justification. I prefer textbooks.

What will you do when light bulb production around the world all goes Led?

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

I'm not debating that watts, energy, is heat.

But when was the last time you saw an HPS bulb wrapped in heat sink?

You have to manage the heat that is being emitted from the source. In the case of bulbs you need hoods and fans and likely some sort of spot cooler. With LEDs you need a heat sink and a couple small computer fans.

I'm talking more about heat management rather than watts ~ heat.

Hid heat sinks are the ballast fins.

But efficiency does make the heat less.