What ph should runoff water be?

[zac graves]

*indoor w/ soil. 3 gallon final pot* Just out of curiosity I tested my runoff and it's at 6.14. Is that too acidic or am I good? I watered with hard well water phd to 6.4. Usually it's watered at 7.4 but I started to ph it. My last feeding was with fox farm trio at 1/2 strength 2 days ago. And I fed them at 1/4 strength twice the week before. So a total of 3 Feedings. The 1/4 strength was phd at 6.2. And 1/2 at 6.5.

 

[frizfrazjaz]

*indoor w/ soil. 3 gallon final pot* Just out of curiosity I tested my runoff and it's at 6.14. Is that too acidic or am I good? I watered with hard well water phd to 6.4. Usually it's watered at 7.4 but I started to ph it. My last feeding was with fox farm trio at 1/2 strength 2 days ago. And I fed them at 1/4 strength twice the week before. So a total of 3 Feedings. The 1/4 strength was phd at 6.2. And 1/2 at 6.5.

Sounds like you’re fine as far as ph. Any idea how hard the well water is? If you know the tds ppm of the water, and use a ppm growth chart, it will give you a better idea of how much nutes to use.

 

[ANC]

It is soil, don't stress if it looks ok. No need to keep on throwing food unless something shows up as a confirmed deficiency.

Did you know the primary role for roots is to be the zone that can be infected by mycorrhizae. These goodguy fungi can sequester food from the environment at a lower energy cost than if the plant did it by itself.

Yes, the plant can modify the pH of the soil around the roots as needed to grab specific ions.

 

[zac graves]

Sounds like you’re fine as far as ph. Any idea how hard the well water is? If you know the tds ppm of the water, and use a ppm growth chart, it will give you a better idea of how much nutes to use.

Not sure how hard but it's what all the farmers (vegetables) around here use on their crops. I went to my local pool place and they told me 7.4 ph and 140 ppm. Pretty spot on because I got a digital ph tester shortly after and that's what it read as well

 

[frizfrazjaz]

Not sure how hard but it's what all the farmers (vegetables) around here use on their crops. I went to my local pool place and they told me 7.4 ph and 140 ppm. Pretty spot on because I got a digital ph tester shortly after and that's what it read as well

Yeah, if you’re ph’ing to those numbers and the ppm’s look that good, I’d say you’re golden.

 

[zac graves]

Yeah, if you’re ph’ing to those numbers and the ppm’s look that good, I’d say you’re golden.

Perfect. Thanks man

 

[Richard Drysift]

Runoff soil ph tells you nothing useful about your grow. You are only reading the results of what the water and nutrient ph is; not what the actual ph of the soil itself is. You need a soil ph probe and a good one at that to check the actual ph at the root zone. If you used a bagged soil it was likely ph balanced already. Adjusting the ph of the water does not adjust the ph of soil. Soil ph can only be adjusted or balanced by adding amendments like D-lime, sulfur, or potash, etc. If you were growing in a sterile hydroponic medium like coco coir then you would need to adjust the ph of your nutrient mix or water each time. Everybody goes out & buys a ph pen when they start growing thinking it's something they need but it's actually kind of a waste of money unless you grow hydro. It helps to have a ph pen to check your nutrient mix just to be sure it's not too much as the buffers should normalize the ph when mixed correctly but checking the runoff doesn't tell you anything useful. What kind of soil do you use?

 

[frizfrazjaz]

Runoff soil ph tells you nothing useful about your grow. You are only reading the results of what the water and nutrient ph is; not what the actual ph of the soil itself is. You need a soil ph probe and a good one at that to check the actual ph at the root zone. If you used a bagged soil it was likely ph balanced already. Adjusting the ph of the water does not adjust the ph of soil. Soil ph can only be adjusted or balanced by adding amendments like D-lime, sulfur, or potash, etc. If you were growing in a sterile hydroponic medium like coco coir then you would need to adjust the ph of your nutrient mix or water each time. Everybody goes out & buys a ph pen when they start growing thinking it's something they need but it's actually kind of a waste of money unless you grow hydro. It helps to have a ph pen to check your nutrient mix just to be sure it's not too much as the buffers should normalize the ph when mixed correctly but checking the runoff doesn't tell you anything useful. What kind of soil do you use?

Are you saying there is no way to lockout in soil?

 

[Richard Drysift]

No you can easily have a ph lockout in soil especially when using synthetic nutrients in an already stout mix but checking the runoff will not detect it if it is out of range. The plant would turn yellow long before that anyway; looking at the plant tells you more than the runoff does. If the soil ph is thrown off it is usually from giving way too much dissolved salts so it is good to check what you are adding before you do but the soil runoff tells you nothing.

 

[frizfrazjaz]

No you can easily have a ph lockout in soil especially when using synthetic nutrients in an already stout mix but checking the runoff will not detect it if it is out of range. The plant would turn yellow long before that anyway; looking at the plant tells you more than the runoff does. If the soil ph is thrown off it is usually from giving way too much dissolved salts so it is good to check what you are adding before you do but the soil runoff tells you nothing.

Understood, thanks Rich.

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

No you can easily have a ph lockout in soil especially when using synthetic nutrients in an already stout mix but checking the runoff will not detect it if it is out of range. The plant would turn yellow long before that anyway; looking at the plant tells you more than the runoff does. If the soil ph is thrown off it is usually from giving way too much dissolved salts so it is good to check what you are adding before you do but the soil runoff tells you nothing.

I highly disagree with your assertion that runoff tells nothing. It is a very useful informative tool when used properly.

It is to show changes over time. Not exact numbers at each test. If you are over fertilizing the runoff ph will likely be going down and the ppm’s up.

It is important to take the runoff the same way and amount each time for consistency.

This is standard practice in container crop production.

I even learned it from the premier horticulture (pro mix) website learning center.

I also learned about different types of lime and that pro mix adds calcitic lime and dolomite for immediate and long term buffering.

They suggest un adjusted tap water for the first week while the powdered lime charges. After that it starts to be available to the plants too. But it is added to the mix as a buffer not so much as a calcium or magnesium source.


And just an intersting fact

Agricultural lime is a mix of calcitic and dolomite and has a much better ratio of cal to mag than dolomite.

And adding 1/4 cup to ocean forest stopped my calcium deficiency. Which was caused by my well water going too soft during the dry summer and fall we had.

Sorry for the long post. I was up trimming all night and am high and wired.

 

[Dr. Who]

This is standard practice in container crop production.

I even learned it from the premier horticulture (pro mix) website learning center.

With all due respect.
I strongly disagree about this point as it applies to soil grown container plants! Having run green house's. I was never taught this by school or by the old school German that ran the place before I moved up.....
Maybe it being almost 40 years ago, it might be part. But even in visiting GH operations for flowers with the Mrs.... See none of that being done in soil.
I do see expensive, soil specific, professional pH meters being used.........

One may find it as an indication of possible problems down the road but, it is in no way a proper or accepted method of pHing soil or measuring the amount of nutrient held in the soil.

In respect to, and for your statement. You are correct as far as automated production hydroponic systems!

I MUST take the time to say that in production farming with automated hydroponic systems. It IS standard procedure to monitor the in-going and the run-off by automated, PC controlled growing systems!

This is done in respect to run-off volume, vs in-put volume, and possible variations in EC and pH.

I took the time to copy this from a hydroponic production system set up and instruction manual.

3.10. Measuring run off volume of irrigation

3.10.1.

What is run-off volume? The run-off volume is the amount of water that drains away from the crop over a period of time, for example, each day. The run-off volume is related to the amount and frequency of irrigation. It is worked out as a percentage (%) of the amount of water given to the plant over the same period of time (irrigation volume).

3.10.2.

Why measure run-off volume? Run-off volume is measured because it can affect the root zone solution and is an important tool to manage root zone EC and root zone pH. By measuring the run-off volume, it is then possible to compare it with a target run-off volume.

3.10.3.

What is a target run-off volume? A target run-off volume percentage can be used to guide irrigation and crop management decisions. Often a daily target is used. Sometimes targets can be set for different parts of the day such as morning, middle and afternoon. Commonly used target volumes are around 10% though may be up to 30% (or even higher in some situations).

3.10.4.

How is run-off volume collected? Run-off needs to be collected from one or more plants in the greenhouse for each separate irrigation section. An irrigation section is a group of plants which are all irrigated at the same time with the same nutrient solution. A collection tray needs to be set up to collect drainage water from the sample plant.

3.10.5

How is the irrigation volume collected? The irrigation volume needs to be collected from one or more drippers in the greenhouse from the same irrigation section that the run-off volume is being collected. Put a spare dripper into a collection container. The volume of water in this container will be a measure of the amount of water each plant is getting. Note that if the number of drippers used for the irrigation volume is different to the number of drippers from which the run-off volume is collected, the calculations need to be adjusted.

3.10.6.

How to measure run-off volume? The amount of water that drains from the plant during the day (or other period of time) is measured in millilitres. This is then recorded as a percentage (%) of the amount of water that is irrigated to the plant (irrigation volume) over the same period of time. Always empty the container after recording the volume.

For example

Assume 1000 ml of water comes out of the dripper in a day and is collected in the irrigation volume container. Assume also that 150 ml of water drains out of the plant bag and is collected in the run-off volume container over the same period of time.

Run-off volume % = 150 x 100 x 1000 = 15%

In this example, the run-off volume is 15%. This means that 15% of the water that is given to the plants, drains away from the plants.

3.10.7.

How to make use of the run-off volume? The run-off volume has an impact on the root zone EC, root zone pH as well as crop balance. These are important factors that must be carefully managed to make the crop produce an optimal yield and stay healthy. By adjusting irrigation so that the run-off volume is more or less or the same as the target volume, it is possible to manage the plant to make it more vegetative or more generative, also to keep the plant well balanced.

I feel you made an easy mistake in the understanding of where/why metering run-off is used. I strongly suspect that the pro mix site did not elaborate on that point...

PEACE!

 

[chemphlegm]

*indoor w/ soil. 3 gallon final pot* Just out of curiosity I tested my runoff and it's at 6.14. Is that too acidic or am I good? I watered with hard well water phd to 6.4. Usually it's watered at 7.4 but I started to ph it. My last feeding was with fox farm trio at 1/2 strength 2 days ago. And I fed them at 1/4 strength twice the week before. So a total of 3 Feedings. The 1/4 strength was phd at 6.2. And 1/2 at 6.5.

great thread !

I dont water for run off, but small amounts do happen occasionally. I know what goes in and dont give much thought to
what comes out. I water the same amount direct from my well when containers are light, never check ph going in,
never check ph/ppm coming out. I disapprove of FF trio and suggest organic fertilizer for a no worry experience,\compared to all the posters in riu failing while using Fox Farm products- Who can ignore that? The system does work very well for some growers though, so if thats you please post pics and details .
My water is tested yearly and I approve of its contents and ph. These plants are really good at what they do and I get so lucky letting them do it here. Less attention=better experience for me

 

[Dr. Who]

Fox Farm has a problem in it's charting.... Trio, or any FF nutrient product for that matter. Is not charted for the NPK needs of cannabis growing...
It can work. You just need to feed it at better amounts to be cannabis friendly.

Nice answer Chem...

 

[zac graves]

great thread !

I dont water for run off, but small amounts do happen occasionally. I know what goes in and dont give much thought to
what comes out. I water the same amount direct from my well when containers are light, never check ph going in,
never check ph/ppm coming out. I disapprove of FF trio and suggest organic fertilizer for a no worry experience,\compared to all the posters in riu failing while using Fox Farm products- Who can ignore that? The system does work very well for some growers though, so if thats you please post pics and details .
My water is tested yearly and I approve of its contents and ph. These plants are really good at what they do and I get so lucky letting them do it here. Less attention=better experience for me

Thanks man. And yea I'll probably be switching over to organics after I use up the ff trio. I started seeing negative things about them after I bought it :/. But so far so good. I'm in no rush to throw full amount of nutes at them so keeping it small seems to work for them. Also I've been watering every 2 days, feeding every 3rd watering. Being that they're doing pretty well, should I only feed them if they show signs of lack of nutes or keep the schedule going? Also what's a good reliable organic company for the nutes?

 

[chemphlegm]

3 gallons of soil of dry soil(note the weight in your container)
needs .75 gallons of water added all at once each time the container is light, right before the plant wilts.
any less or more is suffering your root zone. seems strange I know to go days and days without watering
but its ok, if their is a drop of water in the container your roots will find it.
not sure of your plant age or soil type....but my plants, growing only in pro mix, dont get any nutrients until around 6 inches tall,
about a teaspoon of dry organicferts in their final container(2.5 gallons) and no more until flowered.

Organicare made by Botanicare is the best organic cert dry fertilizer man can buy. anyone telling you different is a goddamned liar, but yeah, my fert cost per plant life if less than 3 dollars and if there was a better nutrient for better flowers I'd be using it .

Jacks Citrus isnt organic but its a damned fine dry fertilizer cheap too. The other organic ones I've used reported deficiencies. every bottled hydro salts nutrients performed super for me, botanicare being the best also.

 

[chemphlegm]

@ Dr. Who
I wondered wtf was up with FF. I never knew, was confusing to me, some loved on it other failed. it took much work to
for me indoors to use it in hydro or soil. all in all it was a waste of my time and money I feel. people reporting success are friggen liars I figure now...lol
Like many of us I was left with unused gallons of the shit too. I did make it work, but that isnt right so I ditched it for something that works, like any other hydro nutrient I ever used afterwards.
anyways the FF systems did really well in my outdoor veggie garden so I used them up there for a couple years.
also was able to make permanent dark blotches in my lawn where I spilled it out the back of the Mule, 8 years in a row still a dark green circle, maybe the only place I walk that my chickens dont shit on

 

[zac graves]

Honestly I've been sharing 1 gallon of water between all of them, including nutes. They each get a third pretty much. They're super light before the watering and crazy heavy after. I thought I was good with what I've been giving it? I know some people give at least half but they've been doing good I think. My plants look like they're shooting towards the sky everyday. Looking like they're praying. Should I still up it? Cause I still get a pretty good runoff amount

3 gallons of soil of dry soil(note the weight in your container)
needs .75 gallons of water added all at once each time the container is light, right before the plant wilts.
any less or more is suffering your root zone. seems strange I know to go days and days without watering
but its ok, if their is a drop of water in the container your roots will find it.
not sure of your plant age or soil type....but my plants, growing only in pro mix, dont get any nutrients until around 6 inches tall,
about a teaspoon of dry organicferts in their final container(2.5 gallons) and no more until flowered.

Organicare made by Botanicare is the best organic cert dry fertilizer man can buy. anyone telling you different is a goddamned liar, but yeah, my fert cost per plant life if less than 3 dollars and if there was a better nutrient for better flowers I'd be using it .

Jacks Citrus isnt organic but its a damned fine dry fertilizer cheap too. The other organic ones I've used reported deficiencies. every bottled hydro salts nutrients performed super for me, botanicare being the best also.

And I'm growing in ffof and they'll be 1 month from seed on the 15th. But I'm counting the 24th (transplant) as my week 1 of veg.

 

[ANC]

Remeber if your pots drain freely, you can never water too much (short of flushing), only too often.

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

With all due respect.
I strongly disagree about this point as it applies to soil grown container plants! Having run green house's. I was never taught this by school or by the old school German that ran the place before I moved up.....
Maybe it being almost 40 years ago, it might be part. But even in visiting GH operations for flowers with the Mrs.... See none of that being done in soil.
I do see expensive, soil specific, professional pH meters being used.........

One may find it as an indication of possible problems down the road but, it is in no way a proper or accepted method of pHing soil or measuring the amount of nutrient held in the soil.

In respect to, and for your statement. You are correct as far as automated production hydroponic systems!

I MUST take the time to say that in production farming with automated hydroponic systems. It IS standard procedure to monitor the in-going and the run-off by automated, PC controlled growing systems!

This is done in respect to run-off volume, vs in-put volume, and possible variations in EC and pH.

I took the time to copy this from a hydroponic production system set up and instruction manual.

3.10. Measuring run off volume of irrigation

3.10.1.

What is run-off volume? The run-off volume is the amount of water that drains away from the crop over a period of time, for example, each day. The run-off volume is related to the amount and frequency of irrigation. It is worked out as a percentage (%) of the amount of water given to the plant over the same period of time (irrigation volume).

3.10.2.

Why measure run-off volume? Run-off volume is measured because it can affect the root zone solution and is an important tool to manage root zone EC and root zone pH. By measuring the run-off volume, it is then possible to compare it with a target run-off volume.

3.10.3.

What is a target run-off volume? A target run-off volume percentage can be used to guide irrigation and crop management decisions. Often a daily target is used. Sometimes targets can be set for different parts of the day such as morning, middle and afternoon. Commonly used target volumes are around 10% though may be up to 30% (or even higher in some situations).

3.10.4.

How is run-off volume collected? Run-off needs to be collected from one or more plants in the greenhouse for each separate irrigation section. An irrigation section is a group of plants which are all irrigated at the same time with the same nutrient solution. A collection tray needs to be set up to collect drainage water from the sample plant.

3.10.5

How is the irrigation volume collected? The irrigation volume needs to be collected from one or more drippers in the greenhouse from the same irrigation section that the run-off volume is being collected. Put a spare dripper into a collection container. The volume of water in this container will be a measure of the amount of water each plant is getting. Note that if the number of drippers used for the irrigation volume is different to the number of drippers from which the run-off volume is collected, the calculations need to be adjusted.

3.10.6.

How to measure run-off volume? The amount of water that drains from the plant during the day (or other period of time) is measured in millilitres. This is then recorded as a percentage (%) of the amount of water that is irrigated to the plant (irrigation volume) over the same period of time. Always empty the container after recording the volume.

For example

Assume 1000 ml of water comes out of the dripper in a day and is collected in the irrigation volume container. Assume also that 150 ml of water drains out of the plant bag and is collected in the run-off volume container over the same period of time.

Run-off volume % = 150 x 100 x 1000 = 15%

In this example, the run-off volume is 15%. This means that 15% of the water that is given to the plants, drains away from the plants.

3.10.7.

How to make use of the run-off volume? The run-off volume has an impact on the root zone EC, root zone pH as well as crop balance. These are important factors that must be carefully managed to make the crop produce an optimal yield and stay healthy. By adjusting irrigation so that the run-off volume is more or less or the same as the target volume, it is possible to manage the plant to make it more vegetative or more generative, also to keep the plant well balanced.

I feel you made an easy mistake in the understanding of where/why metering run-off is used. I strongly suspect that the pro mix site did not elaborate on that point...

PEACE!

I did not specify soil as you mean amended organic soil. I said pro mix website. Obviously it was for a peat lite mix being fertigated.

But it applies to a hybrid weed grow too. As soon as you start regularly feeding the medium it basically becomes a hydroponic grow and needs to be monitored with runoff and needs a good 15-20% runoff to avoid salt buildup.

But thanks for your long misplaced diatribe.

Also I have greenhouses all over my area. I frequent them. They all use a peat lite mix and fertigation with drippers. And they hand water hanging and perepheral plants.

They also use the slurry method for testing specific ph and ppm. Even the water testing environmental workers rely on the slurry method as only rediculously expensive ph meters are as accurate. This is an industry standard and appears in every greenhouse guide I have read.

I guess maybe an organic growing one but we are talking salt fertilizer in this thread. And there is not much reason to continually meter one.