SneekyNinja
Well-Known Member
He's trying to be the hip, learned, outsider.
Being a Democrat isn't cool enough anymore for the attention seeker.
We all know a few of those people IRL.
Functional illiteracy in America
- Thread starter ttystikk
- Start date
Being a Democrat isn't cool enough anymore for the attention seeker.
We all know a few of those people IRL.
choomer
Well-Known Member
Yes.
That money has to be borrowed into existence via the Fed ("This note <debt> is legal tender for all debts public and private.") and then paid back using taxes.
They use one debt that is self inflating to pay another debt that is governmental in creation to extract all worth (time) from private individuals.
You're losing me on this one. All private money they know of is taxed, often multiple times as I'm taxed when I make money (FICA, Soc. Sec., etc.), taxed when I spend money (sales tax), and taxed when I save money.
The range of products and services and ratio of taxation are the things that change.
Politicians. They used to just rob Peter to pay Paul, but now they go after the future children of children of Peter to pay Paul.
Amen.
But only people with the money to pay it back ARE the rich and they have no interest in doing so. Their only interest is in making themselves a monarchical class whose existence this country was founded to dissolve.
The abuse is "baked in" by those that create "the monetary system" (1st gov't, then banks and gov't) and tax policy (the gov't and later the banks <negative interest>) slowly incresaing the abuse and exploitation of those systems (gov't and banks).
The "Federal Reserve" is about as federal as Federal Express is.
SneekyNinja
Well-Known Member
choomer
Well-Known Member
It has never been different.
The unfortunate thing is that those on the uphill side of the morality bell curve are very far down the downhill side of the political bell curve. Most don't know that
But it beats TV.
dagwood45431
Well-Known Member
Do you believe online political forums are about changing hearts and minds? If so, that might explain your confusion.
MichiganMedGrower
Well-Known Member
I believe individuals believe it. But when in a group things become much more devided very quickly. And the meaning gets lost.
Who but you are saying I’m confused about any of this?
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dagwood45431
Well-Known Member
Who but me? You.
MichiganMedGrower
Well-Known Member
Of course because you have targeted me as “needs schooling” or something.
But my responses have been that you are mis-interpreting me.
So only you.
see4
Well-Known Member
And by swallowing the party line, do you mean allowing students to eliminate all their student debt through bankruptcy?
You want civil discussion, but when confronted with rational arguments you run like a coward.
dagwood45431
Well-Known Member
MichiganMedGrower
Well-Known Member
Nice cut and paste you edited to use later when you are unhappy with my response. Well done!
You know you just stooped to acting like uncle buck or a 7th grader.
choomer
Well-Known Member
You really haven't been here lately.
see4
Well-Known Member
That's a new one... "self inflating debt".
I've heard of the economic plan to use inflation to cancel debt, but I've never heard of self inflating debt. Maybe you can explain this concept.
And I've certainly never heard of using one debt to pay another that "is governmental in creation"...
twostrokenut
Well-Known Member
well we aren't. you and I are not in MD obviously. some states don't allow the sale of distilled spirits past 7pm or on sundays....do you think you an I are contributing to or can remedy that in those states as well?
choomer
Well-Known Member
A federal reserve note starts its life as debt owed by the gov't it is lent to. There is no value its creation is derived from e.g "fiat currency". The Fed knows this and has a policy of inflation targets.
The more money (debt) the fed creates, the less value each previously created note has (inflation) and it costs more notes tomorrow to purchase what I bought today.
Value is created by scarcity or abundance.
Just like weed, when something is scare it's expensive (more valuable), when abundant it's cheap (less valuable).
Who else created the national debt? 7th Day Adventists?
If you create a currency (store of value) and lend it to me on the terms of repaying the principle AND the interest in the same form as the principle, how can I pay but to borrow more created currency from you to pay the interest, creating more interest accruing debt.
Wash, rinse, repeat.
see4
Well-Known Member
Uhh, I suppose thats one way to look at it.
The feds create paper notes every day. None of it is debt. None of it has value until it is put into circulation.
Inflation is the purchasing power of money and is generally a causation of the relative and general rising of cost of goods and services. Federal reserve will put more money in or take money out of circulation to help balance inflation or inversely deflation.
Value is not solely based on "scarcity or abundance", more simply put, supply. Value can be created from demand as well, without respect to supply, but often is a balance of both supply and demand. Basic economics. But not necessarily directly correlated.
In part you are right, the religious zealots are to blame for our growing national debt. But mostly Republicans and right-wing economics. I assume when you say national debt you are referring to the amount the government owes at any given time. The last time we didn't have a national debt, but rather a budget surplus were the years 1998 through 2000.
Not sure your last thought makes sense. Creating a currency and then lending that currency are two separate actions. The process by which you can pull money from the ATM is probably not what you think, judging by aforementioned comment.
Anyway... enough about that... money is evil.
MarWan
Well-Known Member
Human Freedom Rests on Gold Redeemable Money
By HON. HOWARD BUFFETT
,
U. S. Congressman from Nebraska
Reprinted from
The Commercial and Financial Chronicle
, May 6, 1948
By HON. HOWARD BUFFETT
,
U. S. Congressman from Nebraska
Reprinted from
The Commercial and Financial Chronicle
, May 6, 1948
Is there a connection between Human Freedom and A Gold Redeemable Money? At first g
lance it would
seem that money belongs to the world of economics and human freedom to the political sphere. But
when you recall that one of the first moves by Lenin, Mussolini and Hitler was to outlaw individual
ownership of gold, you begin to sense that
there may be some connection between money, redeemable in
gold, and the rare prize known as human liberty.
Also, when you find that Lenin declared and demonstrated that a sure way to overturn the existing social
order and bring about communism was by prin
ting press paper money, then again you are impressed with
the possibility of a relationship between a gold
-
backed money and human freedom.
In that case then certainly you and I as Americans should know the connection. We must find it even if
money is a d
ifficult and tricky subject. I suppose that if most people were asked for their views on money
the almost universal answer would be that they didn
’
t have enough of it.
In a free country the monetary unit rests upon a fixed foundation of gold or gold and
silver independent of
the ruling politicians. Our dollar was that kind of money before 1933. Under that system paper currency
is redeemable for a certain weight of gold, at the free option and choice of the holder of paper money.
Redemption Right Insure
s Stability
That redemption right gives money a large degree of stability. The owner of such gold redeemable
currency has economic independence. He can move around either within or without his country because
his money holdings have accepted value anywh
ere.
For example, I hold here what is called a $20 gold piece. Before 1933, if you possessed paper money you
could exchange it at your option for gold coin. This gold coin had a recognizable and definite value all
over the world. It does so today. In
most countries of the world this gold piece, if you have enough of
them, will give you much independence. But today the ownership of such gold pieces as money in this
country, Russia, and all divers other places is outlawed.
The subject of a Hitler or a
Stalin is a serf by the mere fact that his money can be called in and depreciated
at the whim of his rulers. That actually happened in Russia a few months ago, when the Russian people,
holding cash, had to turn it in
--
10 old rubles and receive back one
new ruble.
I hold here a small packet of this second kind of money
--
printing press paper money
--
technically known
as fiat money because its value is arbitrarily fixed by rulers or statute. The amount of this money in
numerals is very large. This lit
tle packet amounts to CNC $680,000. It cost me $5 at regular exchange
rates. I understand I got clipped on the deal. I could have gotten $2
-
1
⁄
2 million if I had purchased in the
black market. But you can readily see that this Chinese money, which is a fine grade of paper money, gives
the individual who owns it no independence, because it has no redemptive value.
Under such conditions the indi
vidual citizen is deprived of freedom of movement. He is prevented from
laying away purchasing power for the future. He becomes dependent upon the goodwill of the politicians
for his daily bread. Unless he lives on land that will sustain him, freedom fo
r him does not exist.
You have heard a lot of oratory on inflation from politicians in both parties. Actually that oratory and the
inflation maneuvering around here are mostly sly efforts designed to lay the blame on the other party
’
s
doorstep. All our
politicians regularly announce their intention to stop inflation. I believe I can show that
until they move to restore your right to own gold that talk is hogwash.
MarWan
Well-Known Member
Paper Systems End in Collapse
But first let me clear away a bit of underbrush. I will not
take time to review the history of paper money
experiments.
So far as I can discover, paper money systems have always wound up with collapse and economic chaos.
Here somebody might like to interrupt and ask if we are not now on the gold standard.
That
is true,
internationally, but not domestically.
Even though there
is a lot of gold buried down at Fort Knox, that
gold is not subject to demand by American citizens.
It could all be shipped out of this country without the
people having any chance to prev
ent it.
That is not probable in the near future, for a small trickle of gold
is still coming in.
But it can happen in the future.
This gold is temporarily and theoretically partial security
for our paper currency.
But in reality it is not.
Also, curre
ntly, we are enjoying a large surplus in tax revenues, but this happy condition is only a
phenomenon of postwar inflation and our global WPA.
It cannot be relied upon as an accurate gauge of
our financial condition.
So we should disregard the current flu
sh treasury in considering this problem.
From 1930
-
1946 your government went into the red every year and the debt steadily mounted. Various
plans have been proposed to reverse this spiral of debt.
One is that a fixed amount of tax revenue each year would
go for debt reduction.
Another is that
Congress be prohibited by statute from appropriating more than anticipated revenues in peacetime.
Still
another is that 10% of the taxes be set aside each year for debt reduction.
All of these proposals look good.
But they are unrealistic under our paper money system.
They will not
stand against postwar spending pressures.
The accuracy of this conclusion has already been demonstrated.
I fucked up the formatting
, here is the document
https://www.goldmoney.com/images/media/Files/Educational/Howard-Buffett-explains-money.pdf
But first let me clear away a bit of underbrush. I will not
take time to review the history of paper money
experiments.
So far as I can discover, paper money systems have always wound up with collapse and economic chaos.
Here somebody might like to interrupt and ask if we are not now on the gold standard.
That
is true,
internationally, but not domestically.
Even though there
is a lot of gold buried down at Fort Knox, that
gold is not subject to demand by American citizens.
It could all be shipped out of this country without the
people having any chance to prev
ent it.
That is not probable in the near future, for a small trickle of gold
is still coming in.
But it can happen in the future.
This gold is temporarily and theoretically partial security
for our paper currency.
But in reality it is not.
Also, curre
ntly, we are enjoying a large surplus in tax revenues, but this happy condition is only a
phenomenon of postwar inflation and our global WPA.
It cannot be relied upon as an accurate gauge of
our financial condition.
So we should disregard the current flu
sh treasury in considering this problem.
From 1930
-
1946 your government went into the red every year and the debt steadily mounted. Various
plans have been proposed to reverse this spiral of debt.
One is that a fixed amount of tax revenue each year would
go for debt reduction.
Another is that
Congress be prohibited by statute from appropriating more than anticipated revenues in peacetime.
Still
another is that 10% of the taxes be set aside each year for debt reduction.
All of these proposals look good.
But they are unrealistic under our paper money system.
They will not
stand against postwar spending pressures.
The accuracy of this conclusion has already been demonstrated.
I fucked up the formatting
, here is the documenthttps://www.goldmoney.com/images/media/Files/Educational/Howard-Buffett-explains-money.pdf
PCXV
Well-Known Member
Explain that second part a little more.
Ineffective tax rates. Extreme partisanship that results in overspending and undertaxing. Maybe unrelated, but isn't it funny the government is offering a low tax rate to bring in sheltered money overseas instead of criminalizing the very act of using USA infrastructure and benefitting from it immensely while refusing to pay proper dues?
So you agree lowering the top rate now is irresponsible?
Then elect people who will keep the top tax rate where it is and enact programs that save Americans money, like the mandate and insurance reimbursements. Every Democrat voted against this tax bill. That says something to me.
I'm not an expert on the fed but the basic idea of monetary policy being determined by inflation targets and unemployment make sense to me for the most part. I'm not convinced fiat currency is the problem. At the same time, there seems to be little accountability and a lot of power concentrated.
PCXV
Well-Known Member
You tell me, are they credible sources? Are you saying because Bill got away with it so should Trump?I asked you for links 1st and yet you demure.
EDIT: Ooops! The was Overgrowfem I asked for links that never appeared.
Let me show you how:
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/details-on-bill-clintons-ride-on-pedophiles-lolita-express-sought/article/2566852
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2922773/Newly-released-flight-logs-reveal-time-trips-Bill-Clinton-Harvard-law-professor-Alan-Dershowitz-took-pedophile-Jeffrey-Epstein-s-Lolita-Express-private-jet-anonymous-women.html
"The flight logs showing those traveling with Clinton on board the plane, which reportedly had a bed where passengers had group sex with young girls as young as 12, included socialite Ghislaine Maxwell, who prosecutors believe procured underage girls for Epstein.
The FBI began investigating Epstein in 2006 when evidence emerged showing dozens of young girls may have been used as sex slaves by him and his famous friends.
A total of 40 women were identified by the FBI as having been illegally procured by Epstein, but a “sweetheart deal” in 2008 led to his single solicitation charge and short sentence.
The arrangement saw authorities agree not to press any criminal charges against “any potential co-conspirators of Epstein.”
http://www.eutimes.net/2016/05/bill-clinton-was-frequent-flier-on-pedophiles-private-jet-lolita-express/
See how that works?
But I'm sure they'll not be "credible" in your eyes as you don't really set the bar for what is credible and what is not.