High Pressure Aeroponics

[dstroy]

Consider how uber efficient HPA is.

I would cut the EC to ~ 0.5 EC for mature plants, and ~ 0,25 for young clones

Using yucca, enzymes, and aminos will further improve nutrient efficiency. I now add NPK Raw dry; ~ 1//4tsp/gallon

Are you planning on D2W?

No. Do not feed that low. You haven’t grown HPA for a long time, and never really grew “true” HPA because you neglected to add an accumulator or solenoids. This means that your misters were dribbling for a short time before reaching target pressure and after the pump shut off.

I’m still learning how to grow HPA and I wish that there wasn’t so much misinformation out there.

I feed around 1.6EC to mature plants (of megacrop, or about 1EC elemental base nutrient), and even to my tiny seedlings and established cuts when they get transplanted into a bucket in my HPA system, and grow true (90-100psi) HPA.

I’m still a noob, but feeding at nutrient concentrations that low causes all kinds of problems.

Richard Stoner of agrihouse (who invented the HPA unit that NASA grew plants in) says that you should feed about 600ppm TDS (1.2EC) elemental nutrients. Which is right in line with what I feed now with the fertilizer I use.

If you want an easy nutrient to start with, use greenleaf megacrop.

You do not need a bunch of additives.

 

[Anothermeduser]

No. Do not feed that low. You haven’t grown HPA for a long time, and never really grew “true” HPA because you neglected to add an accumulator or solenoids. This means that your misters were dribbling for a short time before reaching target pressure and after the pump shut off.

I’m still learning how to grow HPA and I wish that there wasn’t so much misinformation out there.

I feed around 1.6EC to mature plants (of megacrop, or about 1EC elemental base nutrient), and even to my tiny seedlings and established cuts when they get transplanted into a bucket in my HPA system, and grow true (90-100psi) HPA.

I’m still a noob, but feeding at nutrient concentrations that low causes all kinds of problems.

Richard Stoner of agrihouse (who invented the HPA unit that NASA grew plants in) says that you should feed about 600ppm TDS (1.2EC) elemental nutrients. Which is right in line with what I feed now with the fertilizer I use.

If you want an easy nutrient to start with, use greenleaf megacrop.

You do not need a bunch of additives.

Very good info here, aside from the hpa theory, actually once you get hpa dialed you will see a flaw, thats when the roots bush like they should in theory the root mass dies inside as the fine particles dont penetrate, this is why I know peoples lack of understanding is a lack of experience as low pressure is the way, the only way for trouble free long term production, you are very accurate to your ideas of feeding, A+ for seeing that.

 

[dstroy]

Very good info here, aside from the hpa theory, actually once you get hpa dialed you will see a flaw, thats when the roots bush like they should in theory the root mass dies inside as the fine particles dont penetrate, this is why I know peoples lack of understanding is a lack of experience as low pressure is the way, the only way for trouble free long term production, you are very accurate to your ideas of feeding, A+ for seeing that.

Actually I have never had a dead spot in any of my root balls and I cut them apart after every run. The kinetic energy of the droplets as they come out of the nozzles is enough to overcome even the densest root mass. Also got that tidbit from an encyclopedia put together by agrihouse.

So if you end up with dead spots it’s because you either don’t have enough nozzles, aren’t feeding for long enough or are waiting too long in between feeding.

IMLE anyway.

 

[dstroy]

Very good info here, aside from the hpa theory, actually once you get hpa dialed you will see a flaw, thats when the roots bush like they should in theory the root mass dies inside as the fine particles dont penetrate, this is why I know peoples lack of understanding is a lack of experience as low pressure is the way, the only way for trouble free long term production, you are very accurate to your ideas of feeding, A+ for seeing that.

Here’s a rootball a couple hours after cutting a plant down. Totally filled the whole bucket, no dead spots.

 

[Anothermeduser]

Here’s a rootball a couple hours after cutting a plant down. Totally filled the whole bucket, no dead spots.

View attachment 4083158

Looks like you pulled them from a bucket of water, im talking roots sitting in air, apples to oranges buddy, apples to oranges, i dont say what i say without many yrs behind it

 

[Anothermeduser]

And those are not bushed like true hpa does... your running a form of dwc

 

[dstroy]

Looks like you pulled them from a bucket of water, im talking roots sitting in air, apples to oranges buddy, apples to oranges, i dont say what i say without many yrs behind it

No, they came out of a bucket with zero water, other than what I spray them with out of nozzles. They don’t sit in water if that’s what you mean, because I grew it using HPA.

 

[dstroy]

And those are not bushed like true hpa does... your running a form of dwc

No, I’m not.

 

[dstroy]

Looks like you pulled them from a bucket of water, im talking roots sitting in air, apples to oranges buddy, apples to oranges, i dont say what i say without many yrs behind it

Those roots I posted were sitting in air. I've got more plants growing in buckets sitting in air right now.

So, do you have any HPA grows you can share? Or... ?


I'm pretty sure you don't, but if you do I'll eat crow. Still, not everything you said was "right". Just so you know, I trust the person who got funded by, and built shit for NASA (Richard Stoner) over you.

 

[ZxcStaz]

Hi Pet Flora, Dstroy, and Anothermeduser,
I just read through posts #40 -49, and I'm going to reply to all in one post to keep it all together. One point that I should address in general is EC. I'm glad that EC was posted because ppm's can differ if spoken about in terms of TDS. I use ECx700 to get ppm's, but if I was talking TDS it would be ECx500. I'm stating the obvious, but I wanted to clarify for anyone not use to the various scales.

Pet Flora, I'm using a LPA system on the seedlings right now, I will use a hybrid HPA/LPA system after I grow these up a bit more, and make a few clones from them, so that I can start with about 10 plants. They should be all be the same "age", if not the same size, so there should be little variation on nutrient requirements among them.
I will have two different rez systems, with different concentrations of nutrients, and maybe compositions, in them I will be doing a pseudo-DTW, where the HPA rez sprays the roots, and gets collected into the LPA rez, which is monitored and changed periodically.

Dstroy, I see your point about the concentrations. I'm going to start low, especially with the HPA system, until I get a read on the plants. I usually adjust from their signs and bring it up from there. Your roots look great, were they trees? If so, how much water were you going through per day and how did the system accommodate it?

Anothermeduser, I was worried about HPA penetration into the root ball too. I was also concerned that salt accumulation could occur if the nutrient profile was off a little bit and excess salts were not absorbed. This being my first HPA run, I'm going to err on the side of caution and run both low and high pressure systems simultaneously with different o/o cycles. This should address both issues, and I'll have to gauge the detriments as it progresses.

Thank you guys for all of your information and contributions! I have much to contemplate.

- ZXC

 

[PetFlora]

And those are not bushed like true hpa does... your running a form of dwc

I agree, they are far from cotton candy, which I had, BUT, those are still nice roots for growing, just not an example for proper hpa. They look very similar to what I get with F & D

 

[PetFlora]

No. Do not feed that low. You haven’t grown HPA for a long time, and never really grew “true” HPA because you neglected to add an accumulator or solenoids. This means that your misters were dribbling for a short time before reaching target pressure and after the pump shut off.

I’m still learning how to grow HPA and I wish that there wasn’t so much misinformation out there.

I feed around 1.6EC to mature plants (of megacrop, or about 1EC elemental base nutrient), and even to my tiny seedlings and established cuts when they get transplanted into a bucket in my HPA system, and grow true (90-100psi) HPA.

I’m still a noob, but feeding at nutrient concentrations that low causes all kinds of problems.

Richard Stoner of agrihouse (who invented the HPA unit that NASA grew plants in) says that you should feed about 600ppm TDS (1.2EC) elemental nutrients. Which is right in line with what I feed now with the fertilizer I use.

If you want an easy nutrient to start with, use greenleaf megacrop.

You do not need a bunch of additives.

>
I found your hpa grow thread WOW , incredibly complex, and yet you chose to use tiny root chambers, which not only prevents the mist from doing its thing, but causes the mist to collect, creating molecules that are too big for root hairs.

HPA roots require LARGE containers so that the feeding mist can breathe and swirl around the root chamber then caressing the root balls. My root chamber was over 4 ft long x 2.5ft wide x > 2ft deep. Mist heads were strategically located along the side walls to assure 360* misting

As to needing a pressure tank/solenoids, I had massive cotton candy root balls without it

My rez and Aquatec 8800 pump were higher then the tubing entering the root chamber= no drain back from the mist heads. Minimal dribble AFTER each misting is inconsequential

 

[dstroy]

>
I found your hpa grow thread WOW , incredibly complex, and yet you chose to use tiny root chambers, which not only prevents the mist from doing its thing, but causes the mist to collect, creating molecules that are too big for root hairs.

HPA roots require LARGE containers so that the feeding mist can breathe and swirl around the root chamber then caressing the root balls. My root chamber was over 4 ft long x 2.5ft wide x > 2ft deep. Mist heads were strategically located along the side walls to assure 360* misting

As to needing a pressure tank/solenoids, I had massive cotton candy root balls without it

My rez and Aquatec 8800 pump were higher then the tubing entering the root chamber= no drain back from the mist heads. Minimal dribble AFTER each misting is inconsequential

Yeah I've seen your rootballs. Ever get that fulvic acid problem fixed?

How many 60gr harvests do you have under your belt now?

 

[ZxcStaz]

I reread some of my previous posts, and it caused me to delve into an analysis of a plant’s cellular response to HPA. HPA causes a plant to produce fine microvilli from the root cells to increase water and nutrient absorption. I have also read that this response takes a few days to emerge. This leads me to believe that the microvilli are produced in response to a reduction in available water and nutrients. I have found that limiting reagents dictate the rate and extent of a reaction, in this case plant growth. However, treading the razor’s edge to maximize water and nutrient economy is not my goal here; I’m not shooting gallons of water into outer space. Here on earth we strive for high yields – not weight to biomass ratios, so strict adherence to rigid protocols is not required.

That being said, you might ask, what then is the goal? Well, providing an oxygen rich, nutrient-laden environment that is resistant to pathogens, yet is resilient in times of stress, is my response. (Try spewing that one out blazed on OG Kush…) So, the way I see it… if I use a bit more nutrient solution and provide an aerobic environment, the plants will not have to adapt and can put all of their energy into development. Furthermore, I have read that HPA falls short when the plants attain a large size. This is a serious consideration. I think with the hybridization of the two systems, I can easily overcome this issue. An additional benefit is that all of roots are never dry. When they are not dripping they are fully oxygenated, yet hydrated. This should provide ample oxygen for cellular respiration and tons of ATP for additional growth.

This system should allot ample oxygen without the need for air stones and air pump. I constantly revise and rethink the creation of the system. Here is what I envision in a 24h time period. The HPA misters will cycle 1s/5m covering the 4’x8’x14” root chamber. It will house five or six plants. After four hours have elapsed( - subject to modification), the LPA system will trigger and spray for a minute. This system will have a different concentration of nutrients, and maybe a different composition. The runoff will travel down the chamber and pool in one corner. After 15 min, a return pump will move the accumulated solutions into the LPA rez. This solution will be monitored for pH and ppm’s to get a read on the nutrient levels. This cycle continues throughout the day and should be viable without intervention for a week, minimally.

Thoughts on system improvements are appreciated, as well as identification of any unperceived pitfalls you may foresee.

- ZXC

 

[dstroy]

I reread some of my previous posts, and it caused me to delve into an analysis of a plant’s cellular response to HPA. HPA causes a plant to produce fine microvilli from the root cells to increase water and nutrient absorption. I have also read that this response takes a few days to emerge. This leads me to believe that the microvilli are produced in response to a reduction in available water and nutrients. I have found that limiting reagents dictate the rate and extent of a reaction, in this case plant growth. However, treading the razor’s edge to maximize water and nutrient economy is not my goal here; I’m not shooting gallons of water into outer space. Here on earth we strive for high yields – not weight to biomass ratios, so strict adherence to rigid protocols is not required.

That being said, you might ask, what then is the goal? Well, providing an oxygen rich, nutrient-laden environment that is resistant to pathogens, yet is resilient in times of stress, is my response. (Try spewing that one out blazed on OG Kush…) So, the way I see it… if I use a bit more nutrient solution and provide an aerobic environment, the plants will not have to adapt and can put all of their energy into development. Furthermore, I have read that HPA falls short when the plants attain a large size. This is a serious consideration. I think with the hybridization of the two systems, I can easily overcome this issue. An additional benefit is that all of roots are never dry. When they are not dripping they are fully oxygenated, yet hydrated. This should provide ample oxygen for cellular respiration and tons of ATP for additional growth.

This system should allot ample oxygen without the need for air stones and air pump. I constantly revise and rethink the creation of the system. Here is what I envision in a 24h time period. The HPA misters will cycle 1s/5m covering the 4’x8’x14” root chamber. It will house five or six plants. After four hours have elapsed( - subject to modification), the LPA system will trigger and spray for a minute. This system will have a different concentration of nutrients, and maybe a different composition. The runoff will travel down the chamber and pool in one corner. After 15 min, a return pump will move the accumulated solutions into the LPA rez. This solution will be monitored for pH and ppm’s to get a read on the nutrient levels. This cycle continues throughout the day and should be viable without intervention for a week, minimally.

Thoughts on system improvements are appreciated, as well as identification of any unperceived pitfalls you may foresee.

- ZXC

I have a single plant in my 4x4 in a 5 gallon bucket in a scrog. Grown with HPA. It doesn’t fall short ime with larger plants. Anyone who had said this doesn’t know wtf they are doing.

idk why you would do what you’re talking about. Zero real world advantage, and you make something already complicated even more complicated.

You should check out some of homebrewers old threads, they helped me out.

Really your root chambers can be whatever you want. I chose buckets because it makes it easy to move them between my veg and flower area.

All of that shit that @PetFlora was spewing about giant cotton candy roots is bull, they fuzz up a bit but you really want lateral root growth and not a bunch of fuckin fuzz. If the droplets are too small the roots fuzz up too much, like with an ultrasonic fogger. You do want them all to be healthy though, and Richard Stoner recommends about 3sec/3min on/off. I change my feed times based off of humidity, longer with lower humidity.

If you get any dead spots in your rootball it’s because there aren’t enough nozzles for the chamber size, or you’re not feeding for long enough to wet all of the roots.

Same with that idiotic crap @PetFlora posted about the mist caressing balls. Lol

There are really not a lot of people who post on here who have had successful HPA grows, @PetFlora is not one of them. For real, check out some of his old grows, can’t grow for shit and is the last person you should take advice from.

So, one of the things about HPA, is that there is a lot of interaction between the plants and the nutrient solution. So if you’re planning on it being totally stable and recirculating that’s just not gonna happen.

I follow a chart that tells me when to change my res, and in between that I top up with RO.

 

[dstroy]

A little fuzz

 

[ZxcStaz]

Zero real world advantage, and you make something already complicated even more complicated.

I really don't think this is complicated,,,women, now WOMEN are complicated, although there is a real world advantage with them...and let me tell you about the hours I've spent trying to figure them out...

Humor aside, Nice! Great stuff, the spray timing is requisite information. I was going on quips that I gleaned from older posts. Thanks for that, it's going to save me a lot of trial and error. Those root pics really reinforce your statements too. I see your points about humidity and recirculating. My thoughts on the recirculating rez were that the volume of the runoff would be so small compared to the volume of the secondary rez, that it would be inconsequential to it's composition, but become part of a "cleaning solution" that would be dumped weekly. In effect it would be a DTW system, since the HPA solution would never be recirculated by that system.

Humor on : ...and what is so bad about a fine looking mist caressing balls? hehe.

Sweet! Thanks, man.

 

[PetFlora]

Yeah I've seen your rootballs. Ever get that fulvic acid problem fixed?

How many 60gr harvests do you have under your belt now?

wow, butthurt much? Let no good deed go unpunished

I offer you the reason why your roots are not hpa certified (yet said your grow still looks excellent) and this is how you thank me?

There were a number of missteps I made due to pilot error, and I reported on them.

FYI, if you're going to attempt to bitchslap me, at least get your facts straight: I was using Humic, which is for soil, not for hydro, though fulvic is, and I was way over ferting

The root pics will come soon but here's my current plant 7-10 days from harvest

 

[PetFlora]

View attachment 4083775

A little fuzz

Yes, but from that point on your root mass overtakes the 5g bucket and the mist becomes drops that soak the roots instead of misting them

 

[ZxcStaz]

Yes, but from that point on your root mass overtakes the 5g bucket and the mist becomes drops that soak the roots instead of misting them

From my point of view, I see healthy, well formed roots that look like they could support massive foliage growth. I hear that the spray velocity carries the nutrients to the center, but when it becomes dense, it needs to be cut and separated, to increase the surface area. PetFlora, you also state that the micrometer droplets will coalesce into large drops, thus soaking the roots, and hindering the absorption process. But, this is the essence of my idea of a hybrid system. I understand that it is a intricate design, and that it deviates from true high pressure systems, but if I can attain a root mass akin to those, then I say, and quoting the man, "...to hell with Crom!"
- Now, I have to "Get to the choppa!"