Can a light get too efficient

[ANC]

Most of yuo are going to be fucked by 2050, the sun is busy going into a cooling cycle.

Yes Sir - biomass, GPW - is our main interest hanging around here on riu.
Driving an efficient 350w lamp over a closed sea of green or scrog can produce a lot of biomass
every day on a squaremeter - specially in days when a plant reaches the full size.

In one year you can have 3 grows with 9 plants / ~15h per day and a total cosume of 1900KWh of electricity. 27 plants - i would guess 3-6kg of dry roots, stems, leaves and ! buds ! or even more in an optimized and succesfull grow room.
I do it with 1500KWh as i use different, small lamp sizes to start seedling and vegging but still big amounts of light get lost to the wall, soil or even ceiling and get converted to heat.
To estimate the chemical energy stored in the biomass take1 kg of dry wood, that can reach up to 8 KWh calorific value ---> ~50KWh in biomass.

As a plant (like you and me) has a metabolism, it needs energy to maintain her life.
Like you she needs energy during her whole life: to sleep, to eat, hauling water from the basement, to shit, to breath and even to have sex.
Even if i suspect they maintain their metabolism much more efficient as we animals can do -
it`s hard to calculate, because part of their energy comes from the root in form of nutrients.

But then, if we estimate that from 1500KWh of electricity a led70%-hid80% is converted to heat we spend only ~ 375KWh in light of which a big part never reaches the plant and get converted to heat elsewhere. So 50KWh of calories is a significant part and @ the end all we have to care about, if we talk about efficiency.

I don`t want to show it again and again - (because some people may think i`m a neurotic
anti-catholic) -

but a waterfilled condom or a latex ballon is just perfect to measure the heat production of
your favorite led chips @ efficient low currents.View attachment 4089238

View attachment 4089242
that`s all you need + digital level to weigh the water inside the ballon.



uouppps - i see it the other way round.
i`m a watercooler for several reasons:
my lamp builds are made to harvest weed & heat
light heat cogeneration is 3 times more energy efficient as any aircooled led
due to the 75% of heat production of led chips.
It is possible to use the lamp as a radiator during the winter nights
and a watercooled heatmanagement is just ways smarter as an aircooled led, car, pv-panel, ...etc.

i need only10,- $ for aluminium square tube to mount a 300-1200W lamp system.
pumps & hoses 15,-$ and the most expensive part for my system was to buy a brandnew waterboiler 80L with integr. heatexchanger 180,-$.

My chips run @ Tj = 15-35°C and i prepare ~ 30000L of hot servicewater during the year with my 350W watercooled led lamp. Enough for the 2 persons in my apartment.
I normally pay ~300,-$ for the hot water bill at the end of the year.
Now i use them to pay big part of the extra electricity for my grow led light (~500,-$)

No need to discuss KW of heat vs KW of light - its all mine.

You all can keep on debate about efficiency of lamp builds, chips -
as long as you don`t get convinced to harvest the heat
- you are wandering around in the cellar.

I would love to figure out how to connect my geyser to a waterloop.... how does the cooling work once the water in the geyser is hot?

 

[CookieKush]

Most of yuo are going to be fucked by 2050, the sun is busy going into a cooling cycle.

I would love to figure out how to connect my geyser to a waterloop.... how does the cooling work once the water in the geyser is hot?

You would hope some cooling system would be regulating it no? lol . ^_^

 

[ANC]

lol, growing weed will be the least of your worries.

I actually did not mean to post it ( or rather I changed my mind, but I forgot the replies keeps old completed field's data if you reopen a thread)

 

[CookieKush]

lol, growing weed will be the least of your worries.

I actually did not mean to post it ( or rather I changed my mind, but I forgot the replies keeps old completed field's data if you reopen a thread)

Well, just make sure we all stock up... however wont be in our life time i doubt mate LOL

 

[ANC]

Yep, I'd take 1 to a million odds I won't be around by then.

 

[CookieKush]

Yep, I'd take 1 to a million odds I won't be around by then.

i'll be happy for another 30 or 40yrs lol

 

[ANC]

I'd maybe make it till my daughter is done with high school... started a bit late...

 

[SSGrower]

technical ? lol more like a copy and paste robot scanner that can't connect any of the dots

I was trying to be nice.

I do enjoy not having to read through (honestly I dont have to skip them anymore) his responses, I still get a play by play from your replies.

 

[GrowLightResearch]

The peak wavelength absorptions for chl a and chl b while significant are only modestly higher than the rest.

What is "the rest"? I am under the impression there is no "rest" meaning only chlorophyll is absorbing photons in green plants.

relative action spectrum for photosynthesis

Do you understand relative means after the photons are absorbed? They are comparing how photon wavelength affects action after absorbance. In other words does a green photon excite chlorophyll or increase action more or less than blue or red leaving absorption out of the equation. .

 

[GrowLightResearch]

McCree's showing that "green" light is actually used by the plants even though Chlorophyl doesn't use it.

WHAT???????

How does a green photon get used by the plant without first being absorbed by chlorophyll?????

Since when does chlorophyll "use" a photon??? Chlorophyll 's job is to absorb photons and pass their energy to the reaction center. It does not "use" them.

Unbelievable!!! Even for you. Here all along I thought you had at least a rudimentary understanding of photosynthesis. I was wrong.

 

[GrowLightResearch]

The one that measures the whole response of the leaf or the chart that measures the response of one pigment?

What is the difference? Chlorophyll is the only pigment. Chlorophyll is the only path for a photon to enter the carbon reaction complex. Chlorophyll is nearly 100% efficient. No energy is lost between in the transfer from the chlorophyll to the reaction center. This is the whole point to McCree. Chlorophyll does not care about wavelengths. That's why PPFD is measured in quantum units (moles) rather than radiometric units (watts)

 

[GrowLightResearch]

Well I do know that a few months ago you lectured the HLG guys for having some "unkown" action or absorbance spectrum on their site.

I do not lecture. I pointed out they labeled one of McCree's graphs incorrectly.

Great recollection by that sieve of yours.

 

[GrowLightResearch]

I do enjoy not having to read through (honestly I dont have to skip them anymore) his responses, I still get a play by play from your replies

That explains a lot. Blind leading the blind.

 

[mahiluana]

are those numbers for boiling water?

more or less you need the same amount to vaporize water @ 30°C

Compound / Boiling Point at normal pressure / Water 373.15 K, 100 °C, 212 °F
Heat of vaporization 40660 (J mol−1)
Heat of vaporization 2257 (J g−1) 1KWh = 3600KJ

1L of water needs ~ 0,6269KWh to vaporize

To explain this huge amount let`s guess where it comes from.

But first let me say that my personal experience growing with a watercooled LED lamp is far different from your numbers with HID and i never had to feed my squaremeter with 20L / day. I go with < 5l and much less airflow to maintain my room temp.

I suspect, that big part of the 12 KWh (you&me) need to vaporize 20L of water comes from the amount, RH and temp of the air, that you pull into your grow room.

To check and balance one could measure the temps, RH and real amount of the in- and outgoing air.

If then you deal i.e. with an airflow of 220cfm,
wich is ~375m³/h (1m³ of air = ~1KG)
you move 4500KG of air in 12h.
A huge quantity of thermal energy and if we estimate and imagine some real conditions
/ incoming air = 20°C, RH50%
/ out going air =29°C RH100%

Formula: c = Q / ( m * ΔT )
c = specific heat capacity of air@(25°C) = 1005 J (kg*K)
Q = induced thermal energy = 40702.5 kJ
m = mass = 4500kg
ΔT = temperature difference = 9°C
Time: 12h
power: 942,2 watt

, that means we have to put a steady amount of 942W into the air to get this amount of hot air and as it contains + 20L of water(ΔT 20°C-29°C) we have to add even more(17,4W) depending on the watertemp. of your 20L / before you put them into your grow pot.

OK. - if now this is to high - i suggest to take only 60% of the airflow (2700kg or m³) and we get 600W of HID heat responsable for this hot air.

But still we have not explained where 12KW come from !
and i send you a picture to understand what happens


later i tell you - as i have to switch now !


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_of_water

 

[PurpleBuz]

WHAT???????

How does a green photon get used by the plant without first being absorbed by chlorophyll?????

Since when does chlorophyll "use" a photon??? Chlorophyll 's job is to absorb photons and pass them to the reaction center. It does not "use" them.

geesus dude you are embarrassing yourself.

 

[PurpleBuz]

What is "the rest"? I am under the impression there is no "rest" meaning only chlorophyll is absorbing photons in green plants.

Do you understand relative means after the photons are absorbed? They are comparing how photon wavelength affects action after absorbance. In other words does a green photon excite chlorophyll or increase action more or less than blue or red leaving absorption out of the equation. .

the rest are other wavelengths that are absorbed by the plant and which happen to also feed photosynthesis ?

In the statement that I made "relative action spectrum" it refers specifically to the terms set forth in McCree paper, where relative means the values have been normalized to one. Basically making the spectrums 100% based instead of absolute data values.

Here it is again from McCree read carefully .....

Calculation of results The following parameters were calculated for each wavelength: absorptance = (PMo--PMs)/PM o where PMo = photomultiplier reading without sample; and PM~ = photomulti- plier reading with sample. action = kl(C L + Cr~)/I where kl = constant to convert to micromoles/joule; CL = CO/ differential in light; Co = C02 differential in dark (interpolated); and I = irradiance.
quantum yield = k2(action)/(wavelength × absorptance) where k 2 = constant to convert to moles/Einstein absorbed.
relative action, relative quantum yield = action, quantum yield normalized to a maximum of 1.00

 

[wietefras]

How does a green photon get used by the plant without first being absorbed by chlorophyll?????

Did you even see the Chlorophyl charts you posted? No (or hardly any) action in the 500 to 650nm range. That was your point all along.

I do not lecture. I pointed out they labeled one of McCree's graphs incorrectly.

Whatever you call it, you were wrong in claiming that something was wrong with those charts or labels. The same correct charts are still there with the same correct labels.

You claimed their "confusing chart" should be replaced by the Chlorophyl charts since there should be no action in the 500 to 650nm range.

Chlorophyll is the only pigment.

No it isn't. Just wow.

See that is the problem. You read your high school text books or google some basic shit. Yet you lack the insight of the bigger picture. There is more to photosynthesis than Chlorophyl. Although indeed they probably don't teach advanced concepts like that to children.

Since when does chlorophyll "use" a photon??? Chlorophyll 's job is to absorb photons and pass them to the reaction center. It does not "use" them.

Bwahahahahaha, that's just hilarious. You think photons get passed around? ROFL.

Chlorophyll absorbs the photons and "uses" it by converting it to energy for the rest of the system. It does not pass photons around. It's even in the text that you copy pasted.

Chlorophyll does not care about wavelengths.

Yes, that why that Chlorophyl chart looks the way it does. It looks like a perfectly rectangular 400-700nm PAR block. Oh wait, it doesn't. Not at all.

Hilarious as your ideas on Chlorophyll are, could you please stop posting more of that nonsense? Just make an effort to try to understand the actual point here:
Why do the McCree charts look so different from the Chlorophyl charts? Does that explain which of those charts is more applicable for a grower if they want to understand how efficiently the plant uses the light?

 

[mahiluana]

once the water in the geyser is hot?

I take a shower, switch on my washing mashine or do dishes in the kitchen...
... or isn`t it that, what you call too efficient ? I`m @ 85% e.e.--- and you ?

my geyser is hot @ 40°C max. watertemp. (Tj = 45°C)
~ Tj = 32,5°C
after the shower @ 15°C min. (Tj = 20°C)

if for any reason there is no hot water needed during several days
- the heatexchanger heats up to ~ 55°C in winter and 60°C in summer
- and then enter in equillibrium, because the heat starts to be radiated from the boiler to the room.
During the night with a maintained waterflow i can give back heat to the grow room and that helps me a lot to keep temps right in winter nights.

 

[Stink Bug]

I think someone is getting electrons and photons confused when it comes to energy transfer within the various pigments, including chlorophyll.

 

[GrowLightResearch]

I think someone is getting electrons and photons

So how do you think things work? What is the job of chlorophyll in cannabis? Is there anything besides chlorophyll that absorbs photons for the purpose of photosynthesis in cannabis?