Minimum Alcohol % Needed to Dissolve Cannabinoids

BarnBuster

Virtually Unknown Member
I am a lab chemist by training, and I have a pretty fine gradation scale or sense for toxicity.

I am also a bit of a cowboy. I know how pretty much all the big bad ones smell. (Except dimethyl sulfate.) So I think of toluene, rightly or wrongly, as "will use" when benzene is on my Avoid list.

My gut call is that below 80% you'll have issues with solubility and possibly selectivity of extraction. I'd give 85% a try ... split the batch, extract one with 95% and the other with your waterier run ... weigh both solids and extract before and after. I'd use this gravimetric approach.

I added the sodium hydroxide (about 0.5% w/v) to the rather smelly first run of distillate and let it sit for a day before redistilling. It knocked out the yeasty fusely smells and flavors (yup, bioassay ftw!) and left me with a vodka-clean product.

As for describing fractional distillation in theory and practice, , that is a big subject that i bet Youtube has covered. But imo the two key components are a fractional distillation column and a distillation head with a thermometer port and a stopcock-controlled takeoff ratio (amount collected vs. amount returned back down the column). Here's a pic of the unit; it is similar to mine.

had to, sorry

 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
@OPfarmer,

The Source Turbo looks pretty cool, it’s sort of a high tech “Super Flower Tower.”


This is very similar to the process of using an airstill, except the return on yield is 95% instead of 70-80% like with the air still.

The final product is going to be 20:1 CBD:THC, which I will then use as both a tincture and a vape.
I also recently got some CBD hemp seeds from a strain that is supposed to more bushy and less stalky than fiber hemp, so I am excited to try those out.
I have epilepsy and CBD helps reduce the frequency and the intensity of my seizures.
On CBD I can go up to 8-10 days without a seizure. Off it, I have a seizure every 3 to 4 days.


“Time is a small price to pay for piece of mind, by not using toxic chemicals.”
I couldn’t agree more…

Plus I am sort of geek when it comes to DIY, so I love making my own everything.
It really isn’t even about saving money, I just love the process.
A comment on your proposed alcohol recovery process.

I use an alcohol step when I extract. (Not ethanol) I recover my extract using a hexane-water two-phase extraction. Wipes out the alcohol (lost into water layer which I do not bother recycling) and retains all the desired hydrophobics.

As for a 20 to 1 ratio, marginal extractions as you propose might shift the ratio originally present.

My biggest concern is with your water recovery step. Without hexanes, I've noticed that weed oil in alcoholic water forms persistent emulsions. I am not sure how easy that step will be for you. I worry that you'll have reduced yield, waterborne impurities and an unknown ratio of (components in) to (components out).
 

curious2garden

Well-Known Mod
Staff member
A comment on your proposed alcohol recovery process.

I use an alcohol step when I extract. (Not ethanol) I recover my extract using a hexane-water two-phase extraction. Wipes out the alcohol (lost into water layer which I do not bother recycling) and retains all the desired hydrophobics.

As for a 20 to 1 ratio, marginal extractions as you propose might shift the ratio originally present.

My biggest concern is with your water recovery step. Without hexanes, I've noticed that weed oil in alcoholic water forms persistent emulsions. I am not sure how easy that step will be for you. I worry that you'll have reduced yield, waterborne impurities and an unknown ratio of (components in) to (components out).
Thank god, wax does not distill o_O
 

OPfarmer

Well-Known Member
I would love to try one of the "source" units. I am curious though how hot it gets the solution. I do all my concentrate work with as little heat as possible. Even my evap never gets heated, it does a great job of retaining terps.
Just spent time looking at the "Source" specs, and seems like 105f in turbo mode is the number.

I don't recall seeing a higher temp, mostly around 100f.

Did an extraction on some Bubblicious dry sift hash, and anecdotally it retained much of the original essence when smelled or tasted.
 

Thundercat

Well-Known Member
Just spent time looking at the "Source" specs, and seems like 105f in turbo mode is the number.

I don't recall seeing a higher temp, mostly around 100f.

Did an extraction on some Bubblicious dry sift hash, and anecdotally it retained much of the original essence when smelled or tasted.
Nice thanks for the specs, I hadn't bothered to look because I can't afford one right now lmao. 105 doesn't seem too hot. I don't haven't looked at where most of the terps evap, I've always just tried I keep mine as cool as possible. The colder I get the evap to happen at usually the tastier the extracts.

I've never extracted hash but I've heard the same as your results from others. If it's good tasty clean hash the extraction really should be very clean and efficient.
 

Chris Edward

Well-Known Member
Cool flower tower... But I don't have one.. this instead::

View attachment 4264101
@OPfarmer,

I was merely saying how the Source Turbo is a high tech version of the Flower Tower.

That's awesome that you can monitor the entire process, every step of the way, from your phone.
I am envious...

Your yield is probably much better because of the vacuum in the Source Turbo, which lowers the boiling temperatures so that the cannabinoids don't get destroyed during processing.
 

Chris Edward

Well-Known Member
FYI @chrisedward I wasn't trying to poo on your idea. I think it's a noble endeavor. I think it would be a fun project to do this, as I mentioned before I have an appreciation for distillation.

My only hangups are the efficiency of the time and investment involved to produce a useable amount of alcohol. But I also live someplace where it's pretty easy to get everclear.

I would love to try one of the "source" units. I am curious though how hot it gets the solution. I do all my concentrate work with as little heat as possible. Even my evap never gets heated, it does a great job of retaining terps.
@Thundercat,
Nor was I trying to poo on your idea.
It is merely a case of available supply verses desired supply...

You live in a place where everclear is available, that's the biggest hurdle...

No hard feelings...
 

Chris Edward

Well-Known Member
The tax man wants his toll on drinking ethanol, and everyone should check their local regulations, but as you note, there is typically some wiggle room afforded to labs, as well as to stills with boilers under one gallon capacity for alcohol used in processes other than booze.

A simple pot still will take multiple runs to get above around 120 proof, so however you accomplish it, a refluxing column will get you there quicker. You can make the refluxing column out of a glass tube stuffed with stainless/copper wool, or attach a stainless or copper one to an all glass lab arrangement.

The beauty of having a thermometer at the top of a refluxing column, only the most concentrated vapors reach the column head, and a thermometer at that point will tell you exactly what boiling point vapors have reached there, so you can easily tell by the temperature reading exactly what is passing at that point, and when it is moving to the next lowest boiling point constituent.

Bread yeast works well, it just requires around double the amount of processing.

We typically use 190 proof as well, for most purposes. Why fight Mother Nature?

Thanks for the link and patent number! Doesn’t look like they want to share any process details on the site without first vetting the inquirer, but the patent looks interesting and I’ll check it out.
@Fadedawg,

As far as the patent goes...
The process they seem to be going after is a rather complicated version of what is more commonly known was the "ouzo effect."
You know when you add water to ouzo how it turns white?
Well this is the "ouzo effect", which is due to the ouzo being an alcohol and (anise) oil mixture that when added to water creates spontaneous emulsification.
The emulsification is quite stable and will remain that way for upwards of a month.

The patent uses the optimization of this ouzo effect to extract, emulsify, and then separate the cannabis oil from solution, in a rather safe way.

The Greeks (ouzo), Turks (raki), and Italians (sambuca) have known about the ouzo effect for centuries.

This is why I doubt that the patent will be granted, unless they come up with a design patent for a specific portion of the machine and then do lots of marketing to ensure that their process is recognized as "the best", there is nothing new or "novel" stated in the patent.

But it doesn't stop it from being a really effective way to isolate cannabinoids.

I would like to scale it down and be able to use it to extract grams instead of pounds of oil.

A personal use sized version of this device would probably sell like crazy!!!
But I don't have any way to fund the idea...
Especially while it is still in the application process which puts it in sort of a gray area.
If for some reason it does get granted, then the only way forward would be licensing and the way licensing works these days, you do all the work and the patent holder makes all the money...

Or you could do what big pharma and bio-tech does all the time; out-rightly steal the idea and market a product around it.
Then when the patent holder sues, you pay your lawyers to keep pushing out the dates on everything so you can continue making money on the product.
Then finally after 3-4 years of back and forth court battles (which have postponed as long as possible), when you are found guilty you then only have to pay like 10% of what you were able to make in the time you were abusing the patent.
By that time you have moved on to another patent and the process continues...
 

Chris Edward

Well-Known Member
@OPfarmer,
The patent holder probably is holding back details (as well as pulling the videos), because they have gotten word that their patent isn't going to be granted.
So they are going to cling to the "patent pending" status as long as possible.
They may even file for another similar patent to continue the ability to keep the product in stasis as long as possible as "patent pending" to try and scare away any possible copycats.
 

Chris Edward

Well-Known Member
@OPfarmer,

I was merely saying how the Source Turbo is a high tech version of the Flower Tower.

That's awesome that you can monitor the entire process, every step of the way, from your phone.
I am envious...

Your yield is probably much better because of the vacuum in the Source Turbo, which lowers the boiling temperatures so that the cannabinoids don't get destroyed during processing.
Oops, I means @Thindercat, not @OPfarmer...
Sorry about that.
 

Chris Edward

Well-Known Member
I am a lab chemist by training, and I have a pretty fine gradation scale or sense for toxicity.

I am also a bit of a cowboy. I know how pretty much all the big bad ones smell. (Except dimethyl sulfate.) So I think of toluene, rightly or wrongly, as "will use" when benzene is on my Avoid list.

My gut call is that below 80% you'll have issues with solubility and possibly selectivity of extraction. I'd give 85% a try ... split the batch, extract one with 95% and the other with your waterier run ... weigh both solids and extract before and after. I'd use this gravimetric approach.

I added the sodium hydroxide (about 0.5% w/v) to the rather smelly first run of distillate and let it sit for a day before redistilling. It knocked out the yeasty fusely smells and flavors (yup, bioassay ftw!) and left me with a vodka-clean product.

As for describing fractional distillation in theory and practice, , that is a big subject that i bet Youtube has covered. But imo the two key components are a fractional distillation column and a distillation head with a thermometer port and a stopcock-controlled takeoff ratio (amount collected vs. amount returned back down the column). Here's a pic of the unit; it is similar to mine.


As far as how all the "big, bad" solvents smell...
I keep having issues with chloroform...
I smell it and then for some reason I piss myself and pass out. Then I wake up a few moments later in a pool of my own vomit with a headache that won't go away!!!
LOL!!!

Just kidding...

Speaking of chemicals like dimethyl sulfate where the smell means you are already overly exposed, I used to work in a machine shop and one day I walked into the shop and there was this smell that was amazing.
It got more intense the closer I got to the milling machines.
So, I went looking for the source of the smell and I found it....
One of the guys was working on a special project and he was using a special cutting oil and it said right on the canister:
"if you can smell a scent from this oil, you are working your tools too hot"
This particular guy would "burn" through $200 milling bits like no ones business...
The smell was a toxicology indicator because when overheated the cutting oil became a carcinogen!!!
I then had a "come to Jesus meeting with that guy" because it's one thing to expose yourself to nasty stuff, but it's another to expose others because of carelessness.

I will have to look into the sodium hydroxide thing, that's pretty clever...
I would probably use potassium hydroxide (unless the sodium is absolutely necessary, most likely to kill the yeast) so I could then neutralize the acidity and then pour it in the garden as a potassium and nitrogen boost to the soil.
This seems similar to the use of sodium or potassium metabisulfite in wine making as an antioxidant and as a cleaning agent.

As far as the the percentage of alcohol, I was figuring that somewhere between 70-80% would be the lower limit.
 

Chris Edward

Well-Known Member
A comment on your proposed alcohol recovery process.

I use an alcohol step when I extract. (Not ethanol) I recover my extract using a hexane-water two-phase extraction. Wipes out the alcohol (lost into water layer which I do not bother recycling) and retains all the desired hydrophobics.

As for a 20 to 1 ratio, marginal extractions as you propose might shift the ratio originally present.

My biggest concern is with your water recovery step. Without hexanes, I've noticed that weed oil in alcoholic water forms persistent emulsions. I am not sure how easy that step will be for you. I worry that you'll have reduced yield, waterborne impurities and an unknown ratio of (components in) to (components out).
@cannabineer,
The process you are referring to is not mine.
It is from a patent application I was reading.
US20160228787A1

I need to tailor my extraction method to favor CBD.
But a lot of this information is being held onto at the moment because it such a money maker, so unless you can get your hands on some older research or glean something from a patent, there is little information about which solvents favor CBD.

Usually what is available is general information on "cannabinoids" but there are well over 100 different cannabinoids...
We just primarily focus on THC and CBD.
 

Chris Edward

Well-Known Member
Just spent time looking at the "Source" specs, and seems like 105f in turbo mode is the number.

I don't recall seeing a higher temp, mostly around 100f.

Did an extraction on some Bubblicious dry sift hash, and anecdotally it retained much of the original essence when smelled or tasted.
@OPfarmer
I am so jealous!!!
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
As far as how all the "big, bad" solvents smell...
I keep having issues with chloroform...
I smell it and then for some reason I piss myself and pass out. Then I wake up a few moments later in a pool of my own vomit with a headache that won't go away!!!
LOL!!!

Just kidding...

Speaking of chemicals like dimethyl sulfate where the smell means you are already overly exposed, I used to work in a machine shop and one day I walked into the shop and there was this smell that was amazing.
It got more intense the closer I got to the milling machines.
So, I went looking for the source of the smell and I found it....
One of the guys was working on a special project and he was using a special cutting oil and it said right on the canister:
"if you can smell a scent from this oil, you are working your tools too hot"
This particular guy would "burn" through $200 milling bits like no ones business...
The smell was a toxicology indicator because when overheated the cutting oil became a carcinogen!!!
I then had a "come to Jesus meeting with that guy" because it's one thing to expose yourself to nasty stuff, but it's another to expose others because of carelessness.

I will have to look into the sodium hydroxide thing, that's pretty clever...
I would probably use potassium hydroxide (unless the sodium is absolutely necessary, most likely to kill the yeast) so I could then neutralize the acidity and then pour it in the garden as a potassium and nitrogen boost to the soil.
This seems similar to the use of sodium or potassium metabisulfite in wine making as an antioxidant and as a cleaning agent.

As far as the the percentage of alcohol, I was figuring that somewhere between 70-80% would be the lower limit.
Love the tale about the good-smelling bad-for-you cutting oil. Was this for machining titanium by any chance? I've heard that that requires special reactive cutting fluids.

The sodium hydroxide gets used on the first distillate, not the initial fermentation soup. It doesn't matter if potassium or sodium hydroxide.
 

Chris Edward

Well-Known Member
Nice thanks for the specs, I hadn't bothered to look because I can't afford one right now lmao. 105 doesn't seem too hot. I don't haven't looked at where most of the terps evap, I've always just tried I keep mine as cool as possible. The colder I get the evap to happen at usually the tastier the extracts.

I've never extracted hash but I've heard the same as your results from others. If it's good tasty clean hash the extraction really should be very clean and efficient.
@Thundercat,
The vacuum helps to keep the temps down while lowering the boiling temp and protecting some of the more volatile components of the cannabis oil.

If you distill under vacuum you can get similar results, it just takes more fiddling...
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
@cannabineer,
The process you are referring to is not mine.
It is from a patent application I was reading.
US20160228787A1

I need to tailor my extraction method to favor CBD.
But a lot of this information is being held onto at the moment because it such a money maker, so unless you can get your hands on some older research or glean something from a patent, there is little information about which solvents favor CBD.

Usually what is available is general information on "cannabinoids" but there are well over 100 different cannabinoids...
We just primarily focus on THC and CBD.
The literature I read back in the day showed that what extracts THC will also extract CBD. I know this to be generally true; there may be interesting boundary conditions. "Cannabinoids" as lipid diterpenes is useful here because they all travel as a group. If you have a good THC-extraction method, I believe it will also apply to CBD.
 

Chris Edward

Well-Known Member
Love the tale about the good-smelling bad-for-you cutting oil. Was this for machining titanium by any chance? I've heard that that requires special reactive cutting fluids.

The sodium hydroxide gets used on the first distillate, not the initial fermentation soup. It doesn't matter if potassium or sodium hydroxide.
@cannabineer,
Niobium actually, but same class of metals.

I prefer titanium myself, but niobium machines a "little" easier and is a "bit" softer when annealed.

We did some crazy stuff with reactive metals back in the day.
Things that today are considered normal, but back them were cutting edge.
 
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