Do bloom boosters make your bud taste like shit?

[OldMedUser]

Am I wrong to assume not all hydro is created equal and having more sources of of all nutrients and beneficials would have an improved effect on the potency, taste and smell?

Not wrong at all. I'm becoming a firm believer that growing organically gives pot a better fragrance profile but not convinced it really matters medicinally or 'high-wise'. Arguably the better smells and maybe tastes indicates more terpenes and I believe they are great for medicinal value but I've sampled a lot of nasty black market pot that tastes like crap but kicks your ass and that's what most of my stoner friends like. I'm into it for the medicinal value a lot more. Those friends drink generic beer too and eat at McDees so don't have very sophisticated palates. Nor do I really but better than theirs.

I just fried some plants with organics but they are coming around nicely after repotting in soilless promix and a low dose of 3-part hydro nutes. I left the rootball intact so they are also getting organic goodness. Lots of extra myco too.

 

[Dr. Who]

Then simply don't over feed them!

Just a question on this to get your viewpoint. If most nutrients are stored elsewhere than the bud, why would overfeeding then be so much of an issue?

I personally don't flush or starve the plants but am cautious not to over feed so I stick to lighter feeding as I get later in flower. Just enough to TRY to avoid deficiencies. But if it makes little to no difference I may change that next round as up until now I have not even wanted to try keeping a heavy feeding schedule.

I'm no expert but I feel hydro grown can come very close to organic. I believe its all in the diversity of nutrient sources and the more sources the better. I also grow in a non sterile setup using beneficial bacteria and fungi. I use an external filter to provide extra media for these colonies and change 1/4 to 1/2 weekly/Biweekly of my system depending on stage of growth to help preserve those colonies.

Am I wrong to assume not all hydro is created equal and having more sources of all nutrients and beneficials would have an improved effect on the potency, taste and smell?

These are some nice questions!

Even while a good portion of the nutrient is stored someplace else. There is still enough to raise levels there too. Not to mention the mobile nutrients that seem to be such a focus by those who say flushing works. Move directly to the buds when a plant is starved or nutrient is reduced. Remember it's easier to fix a def then to repair an overage....Once the high content is there...It basically stays till advanced need situations....Rather extreme starving.

The difference between hydro and organic, is decreasing a bit. I feel not enough to cloud the difference by much. The huge diversity of the make up of actual living soil, not to mention the myriad of actions that happen between the soil,microbes and the plant in that symbiotic relationship. Still has some mysteries that science has yet to explain. This diversity, simply can not be recreated or artificially replaced by chemical magic in synthetic growing...

I'm trying to get as damn close as I can with my synthetic use and supplementing (result wise) to the alternatives too. These things I find in synthetic and soil are then tried by 2 friends doing Ebb and RDWC respectively. Some of what I've found is working and still it's just not quite the same as that coming from soil....... The key is the soil....It must be. It's the only common denominator...Thing is, pure or straight organic runs do better in terp profiles by some of their gas chrome testing (The price of that has gotten stupid. I won't spring for it any more), over even synthetic and soil.....Then add the supplemental manipulation and we're getting near the same to higher terp counts in some specific terps in comparing the 2.

As for more nutrient sources. There are so many different forms of specific nutrients to attempt to use, not to mention the differing combinations, and concentrations you could apply....You would be far, far more likely to win the Mega or Powerball then to hit on the exact, best nutrient profile to employ. Remember this. The types and concentrations of nutrients used to grow by synthetic use. Differ widely between nutrient makers...The amount of different N types that can be employed it's self is a long list.....There are types of N that are best used by seedlings, another by older plants and yet another by late blooming plants. In synthetic nutrients, what works across all plant stages, with the best comparative results (by sometimes opinion) is what is used. Sometimes a mix of a cpl of sources.....What I just said, is only about N....It' can get mind boggling when you add all the other possible nutrients and their differing forms.....
While soils from even different area's of a single field can have differing and diverse nutrient source profiles. The simple complexity of that diversity...Soundly trumps synthetic nutrient profiles in any form of diversity.

I got kinda long winded but, really tried to make this understandable by basic terms..


Your right in my book! I believe the same thing. While it's not exactly that some types are better (I feel RDWC is king for several reasons - That is another thread). I feel that what you feed and how well you can employ the limited amount of beneficials that actually work in hydro. Can go a long way in determining the success of the hydro run. This is based on equal knowledge of how to run in hydro by those doing it. Many beneficial's do not work in hydro and could or would end up being detrimental to the run if you used them....Many need someplace other then the plant's root's to actually attach to and colonize to survive. Some of those are only able to attach to natural substances in soil.....Think fungal's here. What are they going to attach to? They generally feed off of or are symbiotically linked to what they attach to in nature. These places or things are not available in hydroponic growing..

I need to note here: Soilless growing does supply usable material for some bio's to attach to. This most likely would be the method that would have better terp profiles that would be directly tied to active bio's making any difference. There are yet types of bio's that do not do well in soilless either....

Aqua culture begins to cross that gap but at the same time. Bring a whole slew of new things into the playbook.....This too is another thread.

 

[Dr. Who]

Not wrong at all. I'm becoming a firm believer that growing organically gives pot a better fragrance profile but not convinced it really matters medicinally or 'high-wise'. Arguably the better smells and maybe tastes indicates more terpenes and I believe they are great for medicinal value but I've sampled a lot of nasty black market pot that tastes like crap but kicks your ass and that's what most of my stoner friends like. I'm into it for the medicinal value a lot more. Those friends drink generic beer too and eat at McDees so don't have very sophisticated palates. Nor do I really but better than theirs.

I just fried some plants with organics but they are coming around nicely after repotting in soilless promix and a low dose of 3-part hydro nutes. I left the rootball intact so they are also getting organic goodness. Lots of extra myco too.

I agree to a large point!
It should be noted though, That certain terpenes.
Do effect the type of high you feel. This news is several years old and part of why some are attempting to alter or increase terp profiles.

 

[Dr. Who]

I am a tad bit uncomfortable with cutting the 10 days before you harvest part. What if I just harvest real close to when I am supposed to and stick them in the flower vase for a few days to a week to get some capillary flush action going on.
I don’t know what my Blue Cheese is going to taste like naturally so I’m not sure what drop of flavor enhancer would be good to add .i could put one bud branch stem into a separate vase . This would be a great science project.... to have the same plant with like 10 different vases with one bud stem in each and different drops of flavor added to each and see if there is any difference. Lol.

That whole thing is rather an odd idea. Your sure as hell, still not going to reduce stored nutrient by any capillary exchange with the water.....Only the plant drawing the needs from with in it's self. Back tot the plant being in a critical time and shouldn't loose nutrient availability for "potential" results.

 

[Dr. Who]

All I have is that article that I copied from somewhere months ago and saved in a text file named Cannabinoid testing lab. At the top was a link to a lab in Kelowna, BC where they will do testing for anyone with at least a doctor's medical recommendation like I have and then that body of text. I plan to use that lab to get some of my CBD plants and crosses tested eventually.

Just thought it was an interesting concept and will wait until almost the day I want to start cropping a plant before trying it. Even in DWC I keep my ppm around 300 until I chop the last buds off a plant as I crop in stages never taking the whole plant at once.

Someone mentioned boiling the roots to do the same thing but I always heard that was to drive the THC up to the buds not unlike hanging the whole plants with roots on to achieve the same aim. Bro science we know that does nothing at all to increase THC as that is in the resin glands and not part of the plants circulatory system.

One thing I want to try is to let colas slow dry standing up so the sugar leaves are drier and stand out from the bud rather than droop down and have contact with the bud. I bought a Trimpro Unplugged bud trimmer but it does not work worth a crap on fresh buds as the sugar leaves get pasted to the bud and the blades can't get at them. A few grows ago I ended up leaving a couple plants past their prime to dry still standing in the pots as I was having a particularly severe depressive episode for a month or so and just couldn't function. The buds were still moist but the outside was dry and trimmed great in the trimmer. I use the sugar leaves and the popcorn for dry sift and oils so don't care if that is cured. The buds came out nice after the regular cure so I'm thinking that if I drill a bunch of holes in a 2x4 I could chop the colas and stick them in there to dry upright for a bit then bust up the colas and run the buds thru my trimmer. Hand trimming is preferred but torture for us with arthritis in the hands and all over.

I have no opinion about that method other than it seems interesting to try to see if it has any validity. Not going to cost anything to try it out. A few bux for RO water but that can be reused on the plants or give it to the dog.

Thank you, for what you could share with me! Interesting that a testing facility (with likely no real growing knowledge) would post that...Kinda makes sense with my comment on them.

I like your harvesting methods.

Yeah, that's what it was thought to do back then. I kind of noticed that my boiled root plants would cure out faster. I did that for about 8 or 9 years and it got kinda tedious.... I dropped the practice.

Oh boy, do I understand the arthritis thing..Some days, oh boy.... I have patients come out and help in the wet hand trimming. A cpl of trusted co-op friends will show if the harvest is one time big. We get through it pretty damn well and fast too. As for your method...? I maybe trying that one day....sooner then later I suspect.

 

[Dr. Who]

I've been using mycorrhizae for decades, so please, educate me, you fucking douche.

Hmmm, "decades",,, Really?

That's pretty special of you!
Considering that the popular use of supplemental myco's in any synthetic use didn't really start before the last, about 9 to 10 years or so!

Look's like your name calling, finger pointing has 3 of those fingers of yours......pointing right back at you!

 

[OldMedUser]

Interesting that a testing facility (with likely no real growing knowledge) would post that...Kinda makes sense with my comment on them.

I'm pretty sure that article didn't come from the lab's site. Sometimes bookmarking won't work with this TOR browser so I'll copy a link to a notepad file. Then later see something and copy that to the same file. I have files with a dozen different links or parts of posts I'm making etc. As organized as my mancave.

What I got out of this thread can be boiled down to a couple of points.

If you are using a rich mix of organics then you most likely have plenty of P and K so specific supplements won't be needed and can maybe be more detrimental than positive. Teas made with higher P an K in them will be rich in other things too.

Depending on feeding style in soilless or hydro then a P/K supplement may be required and really improve the yield and everything else.

Ain't giving up my Big Bud. They make an organically derived version of it and other nutes good for hydro as well.

 

[dangledo]

Blows my mind people still falling for boosters

 

[Dr. Who]

View attachment 4335261

Blows my mind people still falling for boosters

I agree.

Not exactly a new thing but, now into advanced micro mineral manipulation.. Variations on Mel Franks "THC" increasing micro nute formula's.....
This idea seems to be working very well in built super soils. Set your Mn and Fe to 100ppm. Fe higher? More CBD. Mn higher? More THC.

BIO AG's TM-7 is an Fe/Mn heavy version of Mel's formula. It also includes Humic's and BIO AG's humic's are from the purest source's on the market for one thing.
They also balance the Fe, and Mn. The formula is used at less then Mel's at about 1/8th tsp per gallon of feed..... Use that at every up potting or about every 18 to 24 inch's of plant growth..
So you basically stop it's use after the stretch or at week 3...

At this application rate you have the soil ppm's for the Fe and Mn just around where you want them if your setting soil content in a soil build.

Considering that the highest rate of THC production is ramping up, just as your finishing the Micro mineral supplementing. You've got peak supply hitting just as the demand is growing!

Further use into the bulk is not needed as that's when the THC production is now falling off. Your peaking availability just when it's needed, and it drops as need declines.... Took more then a few runs to lock down these findings...

I'll say this here too. If one can read between the lines as far as what/how much I "supplement" and when.

You can understand the "what" and "why" of my doings...... I know some see it. It covers 2 things at once.... Reaching "potentials"

Oh, a riddle?

 

[oldbeancounter]

Potassium sulfate at 227 grams per gallon for a 6% solution (with 1.5 tsp of dark brown sugar - this is the cab source that adds a little pep to the living bio's that will aid with conversion to plant availability)....at about 8ml per gallon of feed.....

I have been refining this ideal for some years now....
I do accurate measuring of my nutrient and supplement additions by weight....I measure on a scale that goes to hundredths and in fluid ml by weight...

Potassium sulfate,

I "boost" nothing as far as doing anything like a P&K booster like PK13 or ANYTHING like it.
This is an organic run GG#4! The scents and flavors simply explode. Patients, with out ever being told. Could tell the difference, right off and just by smelling it. That something was different when I gave them the synthetic grown material. Many said it tasted different and they would ask why. Those who did, get nothing but the organic now.....
View attachment 4330925


I do some S supplementing in the form of sulfates (with synthetic use in a small room for fun and experimenting). This goes a long, long way to help terp profiles. Thing is you have to come up with how much of each source of sulfate to use because each will change the terp profile in either a citrus way or a berry way......Part of this synthetic room is work I'm doing, is to find how to increase the alfa pinene and beta pinene profiles......I gopt the other major ones. Now working on these...

I do some minor lowering of certain nutrients at some points in bloom. Near the end I increase the P a small amount, drop the N some more and decrease K a bit also. This is done in amounts that have NO relationship to "boosting"!
I do not ever "boost" anything in organic use. Some soils may begin a bit of decline in availability of some nutrient I may want to continue at a minor higher availability. THAT would be when I MIGHT use some light nutrient tea's to carry it out......

Let me be very clear here! I have several different soil bloom formula's for different strains feeding. These are all organic, hand built, water only soil's. The one's that end up needing a little supplementing to carry them out? 16 week+ Sativa's.....I'll add a little Age Old nutrient or do the tea thing.

To say that all organic growers have to add or increase P&K in bloom at some point....Is ignorant of true organic growing of any kind!

Your issue with the way the koolbloom plant material smoked.....Was YOUR fault! It was improperly dried and cured!

Looking forward to trying Potassium sulfate shortly funny enough I was googling it and found this thread.
@Dr. Who
You have some excellent ideas, wondered if I might pick your brain a little.

You said "Potassium sulfate at 227 grams per gallon for a 6% solution (with 1.5 tsp of dark brown sugar - this is the cab source that adds a little pep to the living bio's that will aid with conversion to plant availability)....at about 8ml per gallon of feed."
I gather its a typo "cab source" should be carb source?
Any effect on plants I should watch out for good or bad along with do I adjust normal feedings(or does this go in alone for that feeding) when I use this recipe as in lower the EC ,you don't list PPM or EC of 8ml when added to gallon, also anything not to mix with it ?
I would be very interested in the recipe for building a good soil for growing stavia's my fav.
I agree a good soil grow pot (or anything tastes better too) smokes better.
You can tell the leaves look different too
Have to look up teas they interest me as well.
Oh and your right curing does work
Any other things that affect taste you add you might share?
Thanks

 

[oldbeancounter]

There's your problem right there. For an 8-9 week plant the last of any boosters and most of the nutes should stop no later than the end of week 5 flowering counted from the flip. Epsom salts with it's Mg and S will work just as good or better than any finishing product in a bottle.

I grow in soilless or hydro so I feed some extra bloom nutes and a half dose of Big Bud a week before flipping so have lots of buds going big by the end of the stretch. In a good soil grow almost everything the plant needs is in there all along so some teas with P and K in them is often enough.

Try it on one plant and do the rest the way you have and see if it doesn't make a noticeable difference. I did and I'll keep doing it.

Flushing will not remove anything from the plants so if you've overfed to the point of toxic salts buildup by cropping time you will be smoking extra salts. Probably have burnt, crispy leaves happening by the end of week five if overfed all the time. Minerals in tap water make it worse.

A long slow dry time and equally long cure time, about 2 months total, will make any pot taste and burn better. Hanging to dry fast leaves a harsh smoking product green with chlorophyll and nasty with unconverted starches. I take from 3 to 5 weeks to get my fully trimmed buds to dry enough to put into jars and carefully burp for another few weeks before almost dry enough to smoke. The pot does most of it's curing in the initial drying and must be kept evenly moist as any that goes bone dry just isn't breaking down the chlorophyll and starches any more even if rehydrated. My buds go into doubled or tripled paper bags and stay in my cool, 50F, basement while they dry.

Freshly trimmed off the plant.

View attachment 4330668

Still a couple weeks to go in a jar/can. I use those empty tobacco cans instead of jars as they have smooth sides so when the buds form a big clump early on it slides right out onto a tray to be carefully broken apart and allowed to breathe a bit before going back in.

View attachment 4330669

@OldMedUser
Hello,
I wondered if you did anything once you put bags over buds?
I actually did this recently before reading this as I thought it might slow dry down and it did.
I was opening bags daily and airing em out, do you just leave them in there
I was worried it might mold if I did.
Will have control of humidity this time(did not last time but still worked)
I wondered what would be best humidity/temp to dry at during each stage if you might share that ?
Thanks

 

[OldMedUser]

I just put the buds in doubled paper bags and air them every day for a bout the first week. maybe even twice a day for he first couple when they are still very moist. My RH is always pretty low and teh temp in my basement varies from around 40F in the winter up to 63F in the summer. I like it around 50 - 55. Taht seems to be pretty good.

You got to air them out for sure or they will go mouldy. I've had a few start to mold so you have to keep an eye on them.

 

[Johnny Lawrence]

Hmmm, "decades",,, Really?

That's pretty special of you!
Considering that the popular use of supplemental myco's in any synthetic use didn't really start before the last, about 9 to 10 years or so!

Look's like your name calling, finger pointing has 3 of those fingers of yours......pointing right back at you!

Yeah, I've been using beneficials for over ten years, which equals decades. Unless you have some new math I'm not aware of.

I was doing ewc teas 20 years ago, but those don't count either, right???

 

[Budzbuddha]

Surprised nobody name drop Ozi tonic and MONSTA bud ......

 

[oldbeancounter]

I've always maintained that it performs best when slightly deficient.

I agree, plants that must endure a little "hunger" for food

I just put the buds in doubled paper bags and air them every day for a bout the first week. maybe even twice a day for he first couple when they are still very moist. My RH is always pretty low and teh temp in my basement varies from around 40F in the winter up to 63F in the summer. I like it around 50 - 55. Taht seems to be pretty good.

You got to air them out for sure or they will go mouldy. I've had a few start to mold so you have to keep an eye on them.

Thanks
I was lower humidity but it was just didn't have right equipment hopefully do now.

 

[Dr. Who]

Yeah, I've been using beneficials for over ten years, which equals decades.

First off, BULL SHIT!

Mostly.. I don't know what fucking math your doing! But in math, and defined by the English language. The "S" on the end of decades forms the plural (or multiple of) decade.
That means more then one.
Now considering that you HAVE NOT even been able to GET bio's packaged for the cannabis growing industry for NO MORE THEN ABOUT 10 years.

Your claim of "decades" is hear by false and a lie!

Reread what I posted. I defined parameters in the dark red sentence.......You went out side those by pulling tea's out of your hat..

Makes me ask, How about you share your tea recipe for shits and giggles...

 

[Dr. Who]

I gather its a typo "cab source" should be carb source?

YES

Any effect on plants I should watch out for good or bad along with do I adjust normal feedings(or does this go in alone for that feeding) when I use this recipe as in lower the EC ,you don't list PPM or EC of 8ml when added to gallon, also anything not to mix with it ?

NO, nothing to look for if you follow my instructions. In fact the plant is safe over 10 ml but, once you climb over that.....You may very likely be restricting natural THC formation.

No, you shouldn't bother with total ppm's or EC by this supplementation. Just add it. I understand to a point the idea of exact ppm or EC. Thing is that most nutrient makers feed charts are off and you have to dial feed solutions in to the strain.....I simply do a run with a higher N bloom soil in organic or an "average" concentrated solution for synthetic's. I then adjust by reading the plant and by the finished quality.
Second runs are always better in some way. Maybe a slight adjustment for the 3rd run - to pull closer to the strains potential (If I feel I see room for improvement).

Have to look up teas they interest me as well.

No body seems to share some very important knowledge about tea formula's..

When brewing any tea. Be it a straight active bio tea or a combination fert and bio tea.
If you add any form of kelp to the wort before brewing.....You reduce the actual final living bio counts by as much as 45%!

Rule of organic's, and kelp meal. Add it in your soil build and then you don't "need" it in any tea!

IF, you want to have some form of kelp in any type of tea...Add it in the form of a kelp extract AFTER brewing it... Personally, I simply add it to a watering and not with any tea..

Any other things that affect taste you add you might share?

Anything you may supplement in the form of a sulfate will have some sort of effect...

I have been trying different things and having a friend get results tested to see what terpene changes happen.....This is a slow undertaking

Mg sulfate and K sulfate do the most so far..

So then, the Mg sulfate formula is;

8TBL of Epsom salts (I use an organic one)
1 1/2 tsp DARK brown sugar
1 Gallon of RO

The use of any molasses here. Will greatly increase the chance of fermentation of the product..

Cant use a whole batch? Make a half batch.

 

[mr. childs]

YES



NO, nothing to look for if you follow my instructions. In fact the plant is safe over 10 ml but, once you climb over that.....You may very likely be restricting natural THC formation.

No, you shouldn't bother with total ppm's or EC by this supplementation. Just add it. I understand to a point the idea of exact ppm or EC. Thing is that most nutrient makers feed charts are off and you have to dial feed solutions in to the strain.....I simply do a run with a higher N bloom soil in organic or an "average" concentrated solution for synthetic's. I then adjust by reading the plant and by the finished quality.
Second runs are always better in some way. Maybe a slight adjustment for the 3rd run - to pull closer to the strains potential (If I feel I see room for improvement).



No body seems to share some very important knowledge about tea formula's..

When brewing any tea. Be it a straight active bio tea or a combination fert and bio tea.
If you add any form of kelp to the wort before brewing.....You reduce the actual final living bio counts by as much as 45%!

Rule of organic's, and kelp meal. Add it in your soil build and then you don't "need" it in any tea!

IF, you want to have some form of kelp in any type of tea...Add it in the form of a kelp extract AFTER brewing it... Personally, I simply add it to a watering and not with any tea..


Anything you may supplement in the form of a sulfate will have some sort of effect...

I have been trying different things and having a friend get results tested to see what terpene changes happen.....This is a slow undertaking

Mg sulfate and K sulfate do the most so far..

So then, the Mg sulfate formula is;

8TBL of Epsom salts (I use an organic one)
1 1/2 tsp DARK brown sugar
1 Gallon of RO

The use of any molasses here. Will greatly increase the chance of fermentation of the product..

Cant use a whole batch? Make a half batch.

have you thought of using pomergranate molasses or something of the like ?

 

[Dr. Who]

have you thought of using pomergranate molasses or something of the like ?

It's simply a problem with how any molasses is produced.
The way they process molasses. Allows the inclusion of any natural yeast present, to be included in the finished product.
This begins fermentation (as soon as it's diluted with water).

What are you using molasses for, anyway? Over the years I've come to find that just about any molasses story, or benefit. Is greatly over exaggerated...

I now use molasses in only the making of tea's. I can do other things that outweigh any benefit that molasses can possibly bring to the table.

NEVER use ANY molasses in a hydro res.....Period!

 

[mr. childs]

It's simply a problem with how any molasses is produced.
The way they process molasses. Allows the inclusion of any natural yeast present, to be included in the finished product.
This begins fermentation (as soon as it's diluted with water).

What are you using molasses for, anyway? Over the years I've come to find that just about any molasses story, or benefit. Is greatly over exaggerated...

I now use molasses in only the making of tea's. I can do other things that outweigh any benefit that molasses can possibly bring to the table.

NEVER use ANY molasses in a hydro res.....Period!

why i use to flush with molasses & water the last 10 days i noticed the plants yellowing faster. was that attributed to molasses kicking out the last bits of nitrogen ?