WTF is going on with seedling roots growing straight up in the air?

[ltecato]

Tap root down right? 24-48 hours is to long to soak imo. 16-18hrs remove and use damp paper towel/unbleached coffee filters. But whatever works for you I guess.

I try to point the root downward but my fingers are not tiny enough to insert the seed precisely as I'd like it in the itty bitty hole in the vermiculite or potting soil. I have to drop them and hope that they land in a position that allows the root to grow downward, but if I tweak the darn things too much after I drop them that's how I end up with a seed that's got a broken-off root or some other damage that kills them.

 

[CanadianJim]

I try to point the root downward but my fingers are not tiny enough to insert the seed precisely as I'd like it in the itty bitty hole in the vermiculite or potting soil. I have to drop them and hope that they land in a position that allows the root to grow downward, but if I tweak the darn things too much after I drop them that's how I end up with a seed that's got a broken-off root or some other damage that kills them.

I use tweezers. Not the eyebrow plucky type, the stamp collector type, they're gentler.

 

[Aqua Man]

I use tweezers. Not the eyebrow plucky type, the stamp collector type, they're gentler.

Same deal I use the tweezers for feeding my dragons.

 

[Nutty sKunK]

Same deal I use the tweezers for feeding my dragons.

Dragons fed on tweezers? Nice!

 

[Aqua Man]

Dragons fed on tweezers? Nice!

Lol nah I use em to feed them worms.

 

[SPLFreak808]

My opinion.

In nature, tap roots usually sprout upwards due to the seeds naturally falling on its heavy side (bottom/sides).

They sprout its tap root upwards before making a turn back downwards creating a lowercase "n" shape, this helps slip the seed shell off as they sprout, planting 1/4" deep usually works fine with this but when you have a long tap root facing down the shell doesn't spend the same time nor does it have the same pressure/angles under the soil to help soften/break the shell.

I've also experienced the same shit back when i used to manually germinate tap roots downards, stuck shells & tap root pokes through the top before bending back down, I got fed up and started planting directly into soil with actually better results.

 

[Aqua Man]

My opinion.

In nature, tap roots usually sprout upwards due to the seeds naturally falling on its heavy side (bottom/sides).

They sprout its tap root upwards before making a turn back downwards creating a lowercase "n" shape, this helps slip the seed shell off as they sprout, planting 1/4" deep usually works fine with this but when you have a long tap root facing down the shell doesn't spend the same time nor does it have the same pressure/angles under the soil to help soften/break the shell.

I've also experienced the same shit back when i used to manually germinate tap roots downards, stuck shells & tap root pokes through the top before bending back down, I got fed up and started planting directly into soil with actually better results.

View attachment 4374391

So the tap root direction is predetermined based on the seed placement? It does not grow out of the seed based on gravity?

I'm thinking it's only an issue with pre germinated seeds no?

Never thought about this so just asking

 

[CanadianJim]

So the tap root direction is predetermined based on the seed placement? It does not grow out of the seed based on gravity?

I'm thinking it's only an issue with pre germinated seeds no?

Never thought about this so just asking

It's supposed to be based on gravity. The pic @SPLFreak808 posted was used by some to try to say the root was preprogrammed to curve around after exiting the shell. Their contention was that the seedling would have to waste time and energy bending back around to point down, therefore you should pant the seed point up. They said this despite many growers seeing roots growing straight out from seeds, no bends. The reason to plant a seed pointy end up in soil was meant to pull the shell off through friction against the soil to eliminate the possibility of helmet head seedlings.
Edit: My blueberry seed was soaked, not pre germed. It was put in soil as soon as it cracked.

 

[Aqua Man]

It's supposed to be based on gravity. The pic @SLPFreak808 posted was used by some to try to say the root was preprogrammed to curve around after exiting the shell. Their contention was that the seedling would have to waste time and energy bending back around to point down, therefore you should pant the seed point up. They said this despite many growers seeing roots growing straight out from seeds, no bends. The reason to plant a seed pointy end up in soil was meant to pull the shell off through friction against the soil to eliminate the possibility of helmet head seedlings.
Edit: My blueberry seed was soaked, not pre germed. It was put in soil as soon as it cracked.

Yeah this makes sense to me

 

[CanadianJim]

Sorry, didn't really read SPLFreak808's message before I posted.
Didn't mean to make it sound like he was one of the folks who had the weird ideas about seedlings curving their roots.

 

[ltecato]

Update: I still think that some of my seedlings are growing their roots up in the air, but that is not what happened with my messed-up GSC seedlings. Allow me to explain: After they sprouted roots I transferred them to a plastic six-pack from a nursery with potting soil in the cups. Then I put the six-pack in an empty plastic food container where they could get sunlight in a kitchen window and the closed container would maintain humidity so that I would not have to worry about them drying out. See the top photo showing the container with the six-pack inside.

Now yesterday, I opened the container and saw something that looked exactly like what you see in the bottom two photos. There was a thin little white hair-like structure sticking out of a cup but nothing was on top of it... no leaves, in other words. At first I thought it was one of those tiny mushrooms that sometimes pop up in potted plants, but then I decided incorrectly that it was a root that had gone totally haywire and grown straight up. Well, it wasn't.

Just this morning I looked inside my mini-terrarium and saw one seedling with its head growing about an inch or so out of the potting soil. I thought, "Cool, it looks like I'll have another GSC seedling. Hooray." Well, just a few minutes ago I looked again and damned if the top of that seedling wasn't missing. Fuck! It was exactly the same thing that happened to the other seedling a day before, I think. Something is destroying the tops of the seedlings, and it only takes a couple of hours to do it.

Aw shit! Is that what they call "damping off"? Damn!

I'm going to sign off for now and Google "damping off." Sorry if I have wasted everyone's time.

 

[ltecato]

Well, I just got back from here: https://www.royalqueenseeds.com/blog-how-to-spot-and-prevent-damping-off-n773

It says you should not use a "humidity dome" to germinate seeds and that is exactly what I have been doing. The photos on the Royal Queen site do not look exactly like my doomed seedling but still I'll bet that what happened was too much humidity and some kind of fungus killed my babies.

Live and learn, I guess. I'm going to curl up on the sofa with a quart of ice cream and have a good long cry!

 

[macsnax]

View attachment 4374466 View attachment 4374465 View attachment 4374464

Update: I still think that some of my seedlings are growing their roots up in the air, but that is not what happened with my messed-up GSC seedlings. Allow me to explain: After they sprouted roots I transferred them to a plastic six-pack from a nursery with potting soil in the cups. Then I put the six-pack in an empty plastic food container where they could get sunlight in a kitchen window and the closed container would maintain humidity so that I would not have to worry about them drying out. See the top photo showing the container with the six-pack inside.

Now yesterday, I opened the container and saw something that looked exactly like what you see in the bottom two photos. There was a thin little white hair-like structure sticking out of a cup but nothing was on top of it... no leaves, in other words. At first I thought it was one of those tiny mushrooms that sometimes pop up in potted plants, but then I decided incorrectly that it was a root that had gone totally haywire and grown straight up. Well, it wasn't.

Just this morning I looked inside my mini-terrarium and saw one seedling with its head growing about an inch or so out of the potting soil. I thought, "Cool, it looks like I'll have another GSC seedling. Hooray." Well, just a few minutes ago I looked again and damned if the top of that seedling wasn't missing. Fuck! It was exactly the same thing that happened to the other seedling a day before, I think. Something is destroying the tops of the seedlings, and it only takes a couple of hours to do it.

Aw shit! Is that what they call "damping off"? Damn!

I'm going to sign off for now and Google "damping off." Sorry if I have wasted everyone's time.

Try doing your h202 soak for twelve hours and then into paper towel or even your media. Add southern ag or hydrogaurd to the water you use for your seeds and the problem will stop. It's likely the media you're using or soak time combination.

 

[macsnax]

Well, I just got back from here: https://www.royalqueenseeds.com/blog-how-to-spot-and-prevent-damping-off-n773

It says you should not use a "humidity dome" to germinate seeds and that is exactly what I have been doing. The photos on the Royal Queen site do not look exactly like my doomed seedling but still I'll bet that what happened was too much humidity and some kind of fungus killed my babies.

Live and learn, I guess. I'm going to curl up on the sofa with a quart of ice cream and have a good long cry!

I'm not a fan of domes because of the problems they can create. Even on my cloners, I only put the dome on during lights out to keep them warm.

 

[Aqua Man]

Try doing your h202 soak for twelve hours and then into paper towel or even your media. Add southern ag or hydrogaurd to the water you use for your seeds and the problem will stop. It's likely the media you're using or soak time combination.

Exactly... I feel it's likely pythium related

 

[macsnax]

Exactly... I feel it's likely pythium related

Ya when they wither up like that or can be one thing.

 

[SPLFreak808]

So the tap root direction is predetermined based on the seed placement? It does not grow out of the seed based on gravity?

I'm thinking it's only an issue with pre germinated seeds no?

Never thought about this so just asking

It's supposed to be based on gravity. The pic @SPLFreak808 posted was used by some to try to say the root was preprogrammed to curve around after exiting the shell. Their contention was that the seedling would have to waste time and energy bending back around to point down, therefore you should pant the seed point up. They said this despite many growers seeing roots growing straight out from seeds, no bends. The reason to plant a seed pointy end up in soil was meant to pull the shell off through friction against the soil to eliminate the possibility of helmet head seedlings.
Edit: My blueberry seed was soaked, not pre germed. It was put in soil as soon as it cracked.

Well yes the tap root/roots respond to positive geotropism but physics doesn't usually allow seeds to land pointed end down, really its not a big deal as it was an opinion/theory of mine but I truly feel that through thousands of years on earth, cannabis (and many other plants) has evolved its offspring traits for better survival due to landing heavy side down like a tear drop.

Dont get me wrong though, if your tap root is already long then you have no choice but to point the tap root down, which is fine if it works out.

More random cannapics if anyone cares, im also dying to read more about this if anyone could point me to a book/study.

 

[T macc]

But, in nature, after a rain fall the seeds get pushed in all directions. I remember the "which way to face seed" debate a long time ago. If you plant deep enough, the seedling will find it's way up.

I think OP is just having a problem cause of the humidity dome. I don't like those either

 

[SPLFreak808]

But, in nature, after a rain fall the seeds get pushed in all directions. I remember the "which way to face seed" debate a long time ago. If you plant deep enough, the seedling will find it's way up.

I think OP is just having a problem cause of the humidity dome. I don't like those either

No argument from me bro lol, at least not until i find some real scientific evidence/facts & yeah i agree with skipping humidity domes, easy to damp off with those.

 

[CanadianJim]

No argument from me bro lol, at least not until i find some real scientific evidence/facts & yeah i agree with skipping humidity domes, easy to damp off with those.

The two last images are what I'm talking about. If you put the seeds in the ground pointy end down, so that the root grows out straight it won't turn around like that, usually. I've planted seeds straight into the ground without cracking them by soaking first, and they only take a bit longer to pop up, and when you harvest the plants there is no bend in the tap root.
If you have had to dig up seedlings to get rid of a covert grow, you will have seen the roots. Pointy end down=straight tap root.
Pointy end up=bent tap root.
Pointy end up does help remove seed husks. I don't need scientific studies to prove what I've seen with my own eyes, but if you haven't fair enough.
Leaving a humidity dome over a seedling after it breaks the surface does make damping off more likely.