Biden-Trump Debate Prep.

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
I really would love Biden to come at Trump hard for allowing our children, family, and friends to continually be under attack from the Russian military. And to point out that as they are on that stage, anyone wathcing any chat is in real time getting propaganda spewed at them by Trump's militarized troll army (foreign and domestic) to sway them to Trump or to not vote. And that all Americans need to wake up to the very real danger that Trump is causing us all to have to function with every day.

Along with pointing out that Trump's stupid decisions like shutting down the government and trade wars that got us nowhere, cost our economy trillions.

Also I would love Biden to point out that Trump who is facing criminal charges when he is no longer POTUS should not be trusted to pick his own judges in the way that the Republic led senate (who abdicated their roles in our democracy) because of the very real conflict of interest. And stay away from everything else about the judge pick. Tie it not to RBG, Mitch screwing of Obama, or anything else, but simply to Trump's shown criminality. And the complicity of the DoJ under Bill Barr. You don't let Al Capone pick the judge of his trial.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/trump-debate-biden/2020/09/25/557abab0-fe98-11ea-9ceb-061d646d9c67_story.html
Screen Shot 2020-09-27 at 11.05.31 AM.png

Donald Trump is a very bad debater. Donald Trump is very difficult to debate.

These two seemingly contradictory statements are equally true. He’s a dangerous opponent. In 2016, it was because he had nothing to lose. Now, it’s because he has everything to lose.

I would know. In the last cycle, I had a unique assignment: playing Trump’s stand-in during Hillary Clinton’s mock debates. Before donning the ill-fitting suit I had tailored, my preparation included studying the 11 Republican primary debates in which Trump participated, watching each three times: once start to finish; then only exchanges involving Trump; and finally only Trump, standing at a lectern in my living room with the sound off to focus entirely on his gestures and body language.

Mimicking his appearance, gesticulations and histrionics aside, my overall approach meant zeroing in on the four topics that obsessed Trump: immigration, Obamacare, trade and “the swamp.” When he was on offense, his attacks on (and nicknames for) Clinton were honed and simple by the time the debates began in September. But he rarely, if ever, defended himself. No matter the attack against him — and there were some doozies — he dispensed with them quickly. And in the GOP primary debates, his answers involved three parts: I am great; you are terrible; and a nonsensical digression that often changed the subject entirely.

Four years later, Trump is not different, but the circumstances are. The Trump we see at the first presidential debate in Cleveland on Tuesday may be even harder to debate than last time, because whatever ability he possessed to engage has been subsumed by a constant need to launch into tirades over grievances. (“I sort of prepare every day by just doing what I’m doing,” he told “Fox and Friends” about his pre-debate regimen.) He exists in a double bubble — isolated in the Oval Office, consuming and regurgitating nothing but friendly right-wing media and Twitter bile. And he’s desperate: The debate presents the first big chance to shake up a race he’s losing, but he doesn’t seem to have a plan to turn things around other than to hope for Joe Biden to collapse. After studying Trump in 2016, and our national tutorial every day since, here’s what I think Biden can expect as they face off three times over the next 24 days. (Although it was never really in doubt that Trump would debate, expect grumbling after the first exchange about being treated unfairly and noise about skipping the two others.)

* * *

Debates are another opportunity to speak directly to voters. If you’re doing it right as a candidate, you’re just a more distilled version of your usual self. If you’re grasping for a debate strategy, you have bigger problems than debating: Your message should be a simple extension of your overall campaign message and strategy. Biden has both. Trump has neither.

Some armchair pundits hold that debates don’t matter, which is absurd. Of course a 90-minute performance in front of a Super Bowl-size TV audience can affect the vote. The valid question is how much they matter. Clinton, after all, clearly won the debates against Trump.

The 2016 debates are over. Trump lost. But here’s why he feels as if he won.

One challenge is about style: Biden will be doing some actual debating while Trump verbally hopscotches around, telling us how perfect his call to the Ukrainian president was. How smoothly he handled the final 10 feet of the slippery ramp. Interpreting coronavirus charts. Boasting about how he nailed his cognitive test.

On any given day, Trump decides whether he wants to speak, and where and when. What to talk about. Whether to take questions, and if so, from whom. How long to let reporters speak before interrupting and berating them. And he decides when he has had enough.

That’s not a debate, and it leaves him ill-equipped for one. Because the 2016 Trump with the clear message, honed attack and efficient defense mechanism has given way to something else: a politician who cannot articulate his vision for a second term. On offense, he’s a mess; he can’t settle on an overarching attack on
Biden, or even two. Even his already-overrated nicknaming skills have all but failed him. As for defense, his existence now entirely involves explaining, misdirecting, denying — whatever it takes to address every item on his grievance list. Which is as long as his tie.

Trump will certainly check the “consistency” box: He will be the same on Tuesday as he was two Tuesdays ago, as he was in July, as he will be in October. But that person is losing. So he has to change the trajectory of the race. In the context of the debates, there are two simple ways to accomplish that: by doing really well and/or by forcing Biden to do very badly. (Curiously, Trump’s overall strategy has been to hope for Biden to make enough unforced errors for Trump to win. Setting aside the likelihood of any debate moment being so catastrophic that Biden couldn’t recover during two more debates and a month of campaigning, it’s an awfully passive plan.)

Screen Shot 2020-09-27 at 11.20.44 AM.png

The best way to deal with Trump, though, won’t be to try to fact-check him in real time or to let lies and absurdities go in the hope that moderators — or viewers — catch them. There’s a third option: Preempt the president. Clearly and strongly preview for the 100 million people watching what will happen in the debate as soon it begins. Biden should say early on that we all know what’s coming. Not to remind voters. But to remind Trump, by speaking on behalf of the majority of the country, that everyone is on to him, in a reversal of Trump’s favorite “everyone is saying” paralipsis device:

“C’mon, Mr. President. Everyone knows that whatever you call fake is real. Whatever you call a lie is the truth. Whatever you accuse others of doing is what you’ve done. And whatever you make fun of me for saying by accident only serves to deflect from what you say on purpose.”

The 2020 version of Trump is constantly winging it, hoping voters will forget what he has said and done while focusing on his grievance du jour. He needs everyone watching the debate to pretend he never said there were only a few cases of the coronavirus in the United States, or that it would be gone in a week, or that he confessed, on tape, to lying about its lethality.

In the end, both men’s debate preparations rely on what they have done over the course of the entire campaign.

For the last 18 months, Joe Biden has debated Donald Trump on the issues from afar. Over that same period, Trump has done nothing but assault Biden’s character. Trump’s debate preparations — “what I’m doing” every day — are the first in history to include behavior that ended up in impeachment.
In Cleveland, an unshrinking force will meet an unvarying object.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
a total farce; why are they even doing this? this isn't even about platform rather removal.
Biden has a pretty deep platform that is likely to get talked about a lot if Trump doesn't sniff away all the oxygen in the room.


I would love Biden to call him out on his sniffing too right off the top btw, especially because Trump keeps accusing Biden of using drugs for debates. And sometime in the middle of the debate point out how many sniffs Trump had done at that point making Trump aware of it and self conscious as he is doing it.
 

CunningCanuk

Well-Known Member
I really would love Biden to come at Trump hard for allowing our children, family, and friends to continually be under attack from the Russian military. And to point out that as they are on that stage, anyone wathcing any chat is in real time getting propaganda spewed at them by Trump's militarized troll army (foreign and domestic) to sway them to Trump or to not vote. And that all Americans need to wake up to the very real danger that Trump is causing us all to have to function with every day.

Along with pointing out that Trump's stupid decisions like shutting down the government and trade wars that got us nowhere, cost our economy trillions.

Also I would love Biden to point out that Trump who is facing criminal charges when he is no longer POTUS should not be trusted to pick his own judges in the way that the Republic led senate (who abdicated their roles in our democracy) because of the very real conflict of interest. And stay away from everything else about the judge pick. Tie it not to RBG, Mitch screwing of Obama, or anything else, but simply to Trump's shown criminality. And the complicity of the DoJ under Bill Barr. You don't let Al Capone pick the judge of his trial.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/trump-debate-biden/2020/09/25/557abab0-fe98-11ea-9ceb-061d646d9c67_story.html
Interesting article.

I don’t think Biden should attack trump at all. These debates are only important for reaching the undecided. If Biden comes across as smug and combative that will hurt him with the undecided voter.

If Biden sticks with policy arguments, trump can’t go there.

The really amazing thing is the fact that undecided voters actually exist.
 

DrKiz

Well-Known Member
@hanimmal

Interesting post. This part really got me thinking:

“Everyone knows that whatever you call fake is real. Whatever you call a lie is the truth. Whatever you accuse others of doing is what you’ve done. And whatever you make fun of me for saying by accident only serves to deflect from what you say on purpose.”

(It is really a good opener.)

From my perspective, looking in from the outside, this is the same accusation that both sides are making against each other.

How politics has gotten to that point where two opposing sides both believe the same thing about the other is mind boggling. Definitely “bad actors” pushing a manipulative narrative.

Seems like every issues is a “No, you are!”

Trumps a Pedo, Biden’s a Pedo.
Trumps a Russian traitor, Biden’s a Chinese traitor.
Etc.

What do you think about this homie?
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
@hanimmal

Interesting post. This part really got me thinking:

“Everyone knows that whatever you call fake is real. Whatever you call a lie is the truth. Whatever you accuse others of doing is what you’ve done. And whatever you make fun of me for saying by accident only serves to deflect from what you say on purpose.”

(It is really a good opener.)

From my perspective, looking in from the outside, this is the same accusation that both sides are making against each other.

How politics has gotten to that point where two opposing sides both believe the same thing about the other is mind boggling. Definitely “bad actors” pushing a manipulative narrative.

Seems like every issues is a “No, you are!”

Trumps a Pedo, Biden’s a Pedo.
Trumps a Russian traitor, Biden’s a Chinese traitor.
Etc.

What do you think about this homie?
You are absolutely right, it's actually in the reports on how the Russian military was attacking our society. They use trolls and 'news-esque' websites from every side of every issue to further divide us.
So for example, say someone comes onto a website forum (like RIU/Facebook/video game chat) and says they support Trump, Left-Troll comes in and attacks that person as 'racist' causing the inevitable triggering of the feelings built up in that word. That real Trump supporter then is on the defensive, and brings up anything as a example of something they actually think is good that Trump has done, and the 'left troll' brings in a website designed to look like news, but is really just slick 'news-esque' media website like 'The Hill' or 'the Nation' (both 'left' pro-Russian propaganda websites that mixes in very real reporting to get credibility) pushing an agenda through cherry picked facts and varying degrees of false premises and outright false information.

Then the 'Right-troll' (who can be the same person controlling both/several accounts on that forum), attacks that person's sources, correctly outing the lies/bias that those 'left-websites' said, because they are setting themselves up to demonstrate for the actual Trump supporter to believe that 'both sides' lie. Because they just witnessed the kabuki theater in real time, and now have that very real-ish moment seared into their brains.

And the exact opposite is happening to that Trump's supporter's family member (who let's say hates Trump), but from the opposite end (Right-wing troll attacking them using sites like OANN, and left-wing troll supporting them showing the falsity).

The true awfulness of this attack, is that both the family members are also being taught how to attack each other's reponses in the most vile manner. And with the ability to micro target and use AI to push the narratives that have the greatest impact (based on data analysis) so it is easy to 'program' fights between real life family/friends. Causing it to become very hard to actually discuss things with friends and family without someone stepping on a social land-mine that exploded the conversation further alienating people from their loved ones.

Then using out of context of what politicians have said, and rules in hearings of how things can be asked to allow congress people to lie without lying to 'score' political points and slickly edited/redacted material, you can easily make a Youtube video 'proving' that 'they' are liars and worse. Giving you proof of the 'both sides. What really sucks is that the algorithms then will harden propaganda bubbles by feeding people more and more clickbait designed by Trump trolls (foreign and domestic) to confuse what is happening for real while providing noise for people to have to figure out where the reality lies.

This is why I try to get people to look at everything they actually care about on the AP news or Reuters. The other credible information sources (because they are held accountable legally and have bills to pay) like the Washington post, or NY times have paywalls, and tend to price people out of their stories (which is why I started posting full articles here, so people don't have to hit paywalls), which is why too many people started using the click bait media sites that are not held to the same standards.

Also though, it is important to know that Trump is a troll, and understands the power of being able to 'what about' his enemies or distract them and does have his troll army out pushing something to lie about anytime his own proven (which is the difference between his lies about Biden) misdeeds are brought up.

I am not sure if that answers what you were thinking, if anything else or I missed something feel free to come back at me. It is a complex issue that we need to figure out as a society.
 
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hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Evade, snowflake, pull a meaningless statement like 'people say' (no shit Sherlock, you just said and you are a person), and then downright lie about the context, but tie it to something that is true but not as evidence of his false context. Then right before time runs out, toss out a planted conspiracy theory so the people who believe the spam propaganda that Trump has placed into their forum's of choice can use that as a jumping point to use in real life to avoid the very real question that the lady had that Trump didn't answer.


Trump is correct in that military came out and said that Trump did not say any of that to them, I am sure there are a lot of people he has not said stupid things in front of, that doesn't mean that the times he has said something extremely crappy didn't happen.

https://www.vox.com/2020/9/4/21422733/atlantic-trump-military-suckers-losers-explained
And the 'fake news' planted story that just happened to come out around the exact same time was the 'anonymously' sourced Trump didn't go to the graves because of the rain story, which was not part of any credible news media story that I saw.

Because, well, who cares about Trump's hair? I was more curious about the fact that Putin was in the area and thinking Trump wanted a shady dictator meeting when the worlds eyes were elsewhere. But I don't have any special powers and know that is just my random thought.

https://apnews.com/article/b823f2c285641a4a09a96a0b195636ed
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DELRAY BEACH, FLa. (AP) — A new report details multiple instances of President Donald Trump making disparaging remarks about members of the U.S. military who have been captured or killed, including referring to the American war dead at the Aisne-Marne American Cemetery in France in 2018 as “losers” and “suckers.”

Trump said Thursday that the story is “totally false.”

The allegations were first reported in The Atlantic. A senior Defense Department official with firsthand knowledge of events and a senior U.S. Marine Corps officer who was told about Trump’s comments confirmed some of the remarks to The Associated Press, including the 2018 cemetery comments.

The defense officials said Trump made the comments as he begged off visiting the cemetery outside Paris during a meeting following his presidential daily briefing on the morning of Nov. 10, 2018.

Staffers from the National Security Council and the Secret Service told Trump that rainy weather made helicopter travel to the cemetery risky, but they could drive there. Trump responded by saying he didn’t want to visit the cemetery because it was “filled with losers,” the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity because the official was not authorized to discuss it publicly.

The White House blamed the canceled visit on poor weather at the time.

In another conversation on the trip, The Atlantic said, Trump referred to the 1,800 Marines who died in the World War I battle of Belleau Wood as “suckers” for getting killed.

Trump emphatically denied the Atlantic report Thursday night, calling it “a disgraceful situation” by a “terrible magazine.”

Speaking to reporters after he returned to Washington from a campaign rally in Pennsylvania, Trump said: “I would be willing to swear on anything that I never said that about our fallen heroes. There is nobody that respects them more. No animal — nobody — what animal would say such a thing?”

Trump also reiterated the White House explanation of why he didn’t visit the cemetery. “The helicopter could not fly,” he said, because of the rain and fog. “The Secret Service told me you can’t do it. ... They would never have been able to get the police and everybody else in line to have a president go through a very crowded, very congested area.”

White House chief of staff Mark Meadows said, “It’s sad the depths that people will go to during a lead-up to a presidential campaign to try to smear somebody.”

Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden said Thursday, “If the revelations in today’s Atlantic article are true, then they are yet another marker of how deeply President Trump and I disagree about the role of the President of the United States.”

“Duty, honor, country — those are the values that drive our service members,” he said in a statement Thursday night, adding that if he is elected president, “I will ensure that our American heroes know that I will have their back and honor their sacrifice — always.” Biden’s son Beau served in Iraq in 2008-09.

The Defense officials also confirmed to The AP reporting in The Atlantic that Trump on Memorial Day 2017 had gone with his chief of staff, John Kelly, to visit the Arlington Cemetery gravesite of Kelly’s son, Robert, who was killed in 2010 in Afghanistan, and said to Kelly: “I don’t get it. What was in it for them?”

The senior Marine Corps officer and The Atlantic, citing sources with firsthand knowledge, also reported that Trump said he didn’t want to support the August 2018 funeral of Republican Sen. John McCain, a decorated Navy veteran who spent years as a Vietnam prisoner of war, because he was a “loser.” The Atlantic also reported that Trump was angered that flags were flown at half-staff for McCain, saying: “What the f—- are we doing that for? Guy was a f—-ing loser.”

Trump acknowledged Thursday he was “never a fan” of McCain and disagreed with him, but said he still respected him and approved everything to do with his “first-class triple-A funeral” without hesitation because “I felt he deserved it.”

In 2015, shortly after launching his presidential candidacy, Trump publicly blasted McCain, saying “He’s not a war hero.” He added, “I like people who weren’t captured.”

Trump only amplified his criticism of McCain as the Arizona lawmaker grew critical of his acerbic style of politics, culminating in a late-night “no” vote scuttling Trump’s plans to repeal the Affordable Care Act. That vote shattered what few partisan loyalties bound the two men, and Trump has continued to attack McCain for that vote, even posthumously.

The magazine said Trump also referred to former President George H.W. Bush as a “loser” because he was shot down by the Japanese as a Navy pilot in World War II.
 

topcat

Well-Known Member
@hanimmal

Interesting post. This part really got me thinking:

“Everyone knows that whatever you call fake is real. Whatever you call a lie is the truth. Whatever you accuse others of doing is what you’ve done. And whatever you make fun of me for saying by accident only serves to deflect from what you say on purpose.”

(It is really a good opener.)

From my perspective, looking in from the outside, this is the same accusation that both sides are making against each other.

How politics has gotten to that point where two opposing sides both believe the same thing about the other is mind boggling. Definitely “bad actors” pushing a manipulative narrative.

Seems like every issues is a “No, you are!”

Trumps a Pedo, Biden’s a Pedo.
Trumps a Russian traitor, Biden’s a Chinese traitor.
Etc.

What do you think about this homie?
Damn, ya' lost me. I almost made it to the end.
 

MickFoster

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure how that's even possible at this point in the Trump shitshow. Did these people just wake up from comas?
The really amazing thing is the fact that undecided voters actually exist.
It's no more surprising than the deplorables believing everything the traitor says.........you've got anti-trumpers, you've got deplorables and you have another group deciding whether they want to be deplorables or not.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Interesting article.

I don’t think Biden should attack trump at all. These debates are only important for reaching the undecided. If Biden comes across as smug and combative that will hurt him with the undecided voter.

If Biden sticks with policy arguments, trump can’t go there.

The really amazing thing is the fact that undecided voters actually exist.
That is a good point. I was thinking more righteous old guy anger about the Russian attack.

I was also thinking it would be a good idea for Biden to point out the illusion that millions of people will be under while watching the debates on websites like Fox news that are teeming with trolls in the live chat feeds changing what people think in real time about how the debates are going. It would be easy to do a camera monologue about how the people at home watching on youtube are exposed to propaganda that is subtly altering what they see. And more now than ever people need to be aware of the illusion Trump's trolls are creating. In the chat boxes all the vile inhumane language is actually because much of it is not being done by humans. And it is something he can do in real time as he transitions away from Trump's lies and pivots to the Russian attack on our nation (anything from the bounties on our troops, his treatment of our military adhering to a congressional subpoena, to attacking children on their video games) that is ongoing and unanswered by Trump.


And when Trump cries 'Russia, Russia, Russia' throw it right back in his face that this is the exact trope that the Russian military has been shown to have pushed in the Bi-Partisan, Republican led senate report on the Russian election attack.
 
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