Anyone Else Have Problems With Intense LED's and Organic Super Soil?

[Blazin Budz]

I just posted most of this as a reply in another thread but now I actually want to see if anyone else has had similar results. At the start of the year I Built a new grow room and decided to go with 6 new HLG 320 QB XL LED's for my flower room. I also decided to go with organics/water only super soils (tried a lot of them including my own super hot mix). This past year of growing has been a nightmare for me in terms of loss of money and time plus the stress of my efforts not paying off.

The learning curve for LED's turned out to be more drastic than I was thinking. I cant, for the life of me, get an organic super soil dialed in with these intense LED's. The LED's make the plants eat the nutrients waaaayyyy before the plants are finished flowering. I've tried so many different Super Soils including mainstream ones like Build-A-Soil 3.0 and I cant seem to get through a full cycle with water only. Even with extra amended organic forms of cal-mag.

It'll get to where ill have to start adding synthetic Cal-Mag to actually see results then they'll start showing deficiencies again to the point to where ill have to start adding salt based nutes (megacrop) with extra cal-mag to fix my issues and by that time im hand watering because I don't have a specific plan as what to fill my res with (was using blumats). It just got to the point where I was forcing the plants to grow and trying my hardest just to keep them somewhat healthy. I like my plants to absolutely thrive. Also my yields are ridiculously low compared to what they should be. I feel like the only way I could make it work is to have a huge no till bed or at least use 10 gallon containers at a minimum and thats just too much space for the amount of plants im running at that point.

I could go on and on about the huge amount of money i've wasted this past year trying to unsuccessfully get an Organic Super Soil dialed in but bottom line is it just became too much of a pain in the ass to manage. With coco and salt based nutes, I can dial everything in pretty easily and run the amount of plants I want in the space I have.

I'll never hate on the quality or the taste of the herb with Organics. I think its a great way to grow for a lot of people but for me and my situation, it was just too much of a headache and loss of money to run organics with LED's. I've started my first coco run while im finishing out my organic soil plants and the glow my coco plants are putting off brings me sooo much relief.

So my question is, does anyone else run top brand intense LED's with a water only super soil and have great results?

 

[NewGrower2011]

I've ran similar setups in SIPs under CLW brand leds's and the time I did give things a little extra attention beyond water only was by best run. When I tried a run without anything additional it was a lower yield but the soils weren't a good 1:1 comparison so by no means a good experiment.

I would have to wonder if the plants being that hungry with high intensity leds if these mixes just aren't giving up their nutes quickly enough. A lot of these are slow release and break down over multiple grows and that is by design. That's why this time around I've got my soil mix which was a little hot but I've been giving them occasional feeds of NFTG goodies and so far they're loving it. I've been watching my leaf tips closely for any signs of nute burns or lockouts and so far so good.

 

[youraveragehorticulturist]

Water only is a nice idea to day-dream about, but I think trying to go Water Only is just making things hard on yourself for no good reason.

It can be very difficult to build a soil mild enough for young plants and strong enough to get you through flower.

I think its way easier to build a nice, mild veg-focused soil and then top dress with crab shell and kelp meal during flower to keep calcium, magnesium, phosphorus and potassium topped off for quality and yields.

If you don't want to mess with individual amendments they are Many all-in-one dry nutrient mixes to top dress with.

 

[PadawanWarrior]

I've been trying no-till for awhile now, and still don't have it mastered. I run into the same issues.

The LED's are powerful. I'm trying to get to water only, but I do occasionally use bottles. Neptunes Harvest Fish and Seaweed, and Earth Juice stuff.

 

[Blazin Budz]

I've ran similar setups in SIPs under CLW brand leds's and the time I did give things a little extra attention beyond water only was by best run. When I tried a run without anything additional it was a lower yield but the soils weren't a good 1:1 comparison so by no means a good experiment.

I would have to wonder if the plants being that hungry with high intensity leds if these mixes just aren't giving up their nutes quickly enough. A lot of these are slow release and break down over multiple grows and that is by design. That's why this time around I've got my soil mix which was a little hot but I've been giving them occasional feeds of NFTG goodies and so far they're loving it. I've been watching my leaf tips closely for any signs of nute burns or lockouts and so far so good.

This is my exact thinking. I think its the process of breaking down into available food for the plant just doesn't happen quick enough in soil. Then add the extra cal-mag deficiency and you get real problems. I end up using salt based nutrients because they're the only thing I can find that work quick enough to keep the plants healthy.

I've tried a lot of organic Cal-Mags and none of them will work quick enough.

 

[Blazin Budz]

I've been trying no-till for awhile now, and still don't have it mastered. I run into the same issues.

The LED's are powerful. I'm trying to get to water only, but I do occasionally use bottles. Neptunes Harvest Fish and Seaweed, and Earth Juice stuff.

Thats good to know. I feel like its do-able in no till. How big is your soil bed?

 

[PadawanWarrior]

Thats good to know. I feel like its do-able in no till. How big is your soil bed?

I use 15 gal plastic pots. I'd use fabric but it's super dry here in CO. I've spend like a grand at Build a Soil, so I'm not giving up on it.

I do think that I've been adding too much Ca based amendments so I've cut back on a lot of Ca based shit. My water already has Ca in it and too much Ca can lock out other nutes. I'm just guessing really because I haven't had my soil tested. I'm just trying to learn from how the plants look.

I think my main issue now is I need more accessible K, but like I said I'm still learning. I've just started to add langbeinite to the mix for K, S, and Mg.

I just took these a couple days ago at day 21. You can see they could be happier, but it'll give you an idea. I've got enough jars full now to be able to experiment, so I'm not trying super hard right now.

 

[Richard Drysift]

Keep in mind that naturally feeding plants do not typically stay green until harvest unlike plants fed synthetic nutrients. Also any mix you use will need compost added back regularly in the form of teas or just thrown in top or in the mix directly to maintain microbial activity. NPK inputs are on my half the story. It takes a few amend and recycles to get your mix to supernaturally active status where water only is all they need. I have turned the knob on my timber redwood vs down a bit to just below maximum and now add a lot more fertilizer than I used to under my old HPS. I still get plants yellowing off by week 8 but giving them worm leacheate and soluble NPK in the form of liquid fish emulsion gets them over the finish line; most of my crosses go about 11 weeks.
Try adding something high in N and relatively slow release like chicken or cow manure in the bottom layer of your final size bloom pots when you build them; I know that’s not really no till method but that’s how I do it. Jobes organic spikes feed for 8 weeks but also can drop off fast once they are spent. I put two into each final size bloom container.
As far as yields go monster cropping fully mature clones seems to be one way to get yields that rival my old hydro grows. Try dropping the hours of daylight gradually by like an hour per week. Start at 18/6 and go to 17/7 and so on...when you get down to 14/10 or so the plant usually start to pistil. Once you see pistils popping off go back to veg mode at 18/6 for a couple weeks. Then flip to final bloom phase as normal. Requires space and a ton of patience but worth the effort.

 

[ilovereggae]

when i first started with LEDs I was using FFOF/HF/Bus/Roots Organics liquid nutes, and chasing the same problems as you every grow.

once i switched over to living soil all that seemed to go away. If you are using the BAS are you treating it like a living soil? Keeping it moist and/or using a cover crop or something? I've had some good success with homemade supersoil as well as the BAS light mix. just ammending with EWC, sometimes top dressing with it if they look a little hungry. im not 100% water only, but no bottled nutes anymore. i don't really make ACT teas, but more of a 'nutrient' tea that I mix up for a day or 2 using a magnetic stirrer. Applied once a week at most, rest of the time is just water. Usually just a few tbsp of EWC, sometimes with some BAS Pinto bean compost, and tap water and that stays mixing for a day or 2. then right before I feed I add some kelp and powdered horticultural coconut. I have had a few plants get away from me but I feel its more on me slacking and letting the soil dry out too much bc the plant next to it was fine. I haven't used it with the BAS but in the past I also used Recharge with really good success. The problem might not be that your nutrients are finished, it might be that you are letting your microbial life die off and there is nothing to carry it to the plant. especially possible if you are adding any synthetics.

 

[PadawanWarrior]

when i first started with LEDs I was using FFOF/HF/Bus/Roots Organics liquid nutes, and chasing the same problems as you every grow.

once i switched over to living soil all that seemed to go away. If you are using the BAS are you treating it like a living soil? Keeping it moist and/or using a cover crop or something? I've had some good success with homemade supersoil as well as the BAS light mix. just ammending with EWC, sometimes top dressing with it if they look a little hungry. im not 100% water only, but no bottled nutes anymore. i don't really make ACT teas, but more of a 'nutrient' tea that I mix up for a day or 2 using a magnetic stirrer. Applied once a week at most, rest of the time is just water. Usually just a few tbsp of EWC, sometimes with some BAS Pinto bean compost, and tap water and that stays mixing for a day or 2. then right before I feed I add some kelp and powdered horticultural coconut. I have had a few plants get away from me but I feel its more on me slacking and letting the soil dry out too much bc the plant next to it was fine. I haven't used it with the BAS but in the past I also used Recharge with really good success. The problem might not be that your nutrients are finished, it might be that you are letting your microbial life die off and there is nothing to carry it to the plant. especially possible if you are adding any synthetics.

Awesome. I have a magnetic stirrer that Renfro recommended. I've used it to make small batches of guano tea with EWC and molasses, and making my own KCl solution. I can bubble teas, but it's more work cleaning.

I have everything but the pinto bean compost from BAS. Instead I've got the Oly Mountain compost.

So how much water are you adding, and do you dilute the tea? It doesn't seem like that amount of castings and compost would do much besides adding microbes.

I think that's what you're saying, but I'm high, lol.

 

[kratos015]

Knew the issue was deficiencies the second I saw the thread title. I'll get into all that later, first thing I want to advise you is to stick with what works best for you. If you've already got coco+synthetics dialed in, keep doing that. No need to convert your entire grow into a no-till, start off with just one or two plants to experiment with and do the rest with your tried and true method.

As you likely already know, DE bulbs and good LEDs have a significantly better light spectrum. Which means more photosynthesis. More photosynthesis=more nutes. Magnesium deficiency will almost always be the first, potassium and phosphorus deficiencies are also common and even iron.

The whole "water only" thing is a bit deceptive because many of these sites don't put enough emphasis on keeping up with top dressing your soil.

The BAS is perfect for consistent top dressing, the amendments are so light that you're not too likely to provide anything in excess that will throw your soil's balance out of whack. Assuming you follow the recommended amounts (usually 1TBSP per gallon of soil), of course. The biggest threat is overdoing it with phosphorus in your soil, however BAS blend only uses Crab Meal and Soft Rock Phosphate. Neither of which are too heavy in phosphorus (4-3-3 and 0-3-0 respectively).

A month after mixing your soil, you should be top dressing with more amendments at the recommended application rates to ensure there is still nutrients in the soil. Cover your top dress with your compost of choice.

I use the following for those extra heavy feeders.

Fish Emulsion: 5-1-1 for a N boost.
Fish Hydrolysate: 2-4-1 for a P boost
ProTekt/Silica: 0-0-3 for a K boost
Epsom Salts: Magnesium and Sulfur
TM-7: Micronutrient boost.

I have all of the above handy at all times. Rarely use the Fish Emulsion due to how often I top dress with Neem (6-1-1), but the Hydrolysate definitely comes in handy. Especially for outdoors.

I foliar feed with Epsom Salts 1-3 times a week, depending on the need.
Once a week I'll add ProTekt to the Epsom Salt foliar feed.
Once a month, I'll add TM-7 and liquid kelp/seaweed to the foliar.

Liquid fish isn't 100% mandatory, but its nice to have if you happen to need it.

As you can see, the "water only" is technically true but it does require you keep up with top dressing amendments and compost to keep nutrients/life in the soil.

 

[ilovereggae]

Awesome. I have a magnetic stirrer that Renfro recommended. I've used it to make small batches of guano tea with EWC and molasses, and making my own KCl solution. I can bubble teas, but it's more work cleaning.

I have everything but the pinto bean compost from BAS. Instead I've got the Oly Mountain compost.

So how much water are you adding, and do you dilute the tea? It doesn't seem like that amount of castings and compost would do much besides adding microbes.

I think that's what you're saying, but I'm high, lol.

yup I think I got mine when I saw the one u got lol. i just use a large mouth mason jar, fill it most of the way w water. then i guess prob @ a cup of ewc/compost all together but i add it a little at a time or the stirrer thing gets stuck if I dump it all at once. once its done mixing i then dump that jar into a 2 gallon bucket and fill rest of the way w water and then feed that. and your right its probably not adding much nutrients just 'recharging' the microbial life. i think the top dressing of EWC is whats keeping it going mostly.

i just re-amended w EWC and have first recycled batch in flower now. seems to be doing fine. I might try adding it a little bit of the DTE Vegan mix next time bc I still have 2 big boxes of that left and figure that should replenish whatever is missing.

 

[PadawanWarrior]

yup I think I got mine when I saw the one u got lol. i just use a large mouth mason jar, fill it most of the way w water. then i guess prob @ a cup of ewc/compost all together but i add it a little at a time or the stirrer thing gets stuck if I dump it all at once. once its done mixing i then dump that jar into a 2 gallon bucket and fill rest of the way w water and then feed that. and your right its probably not adding much nutrients just 'recharging' the microbial life. i think the top dressing of EWC is whats keeping it going mostly.

i just re-amended w EWC and have first recycled batch in flower now. seems to be doing fine. I might try adding it a little bit of the DTE Vegan mix next time bc I still have 2 big boxes of that left and figure that should replenish whatever is missing.

Nice. What size Mason? Are they the 1/2 gallon ones? I need to get more of the 1/2's. I used my last one for my KCl solution. So I've been using quart jars.

You're totally right about adding that stuff slow or the stirrer will get jacked.

One thing about the quart jars is it was ruff on one of my stirrers and wore off part of the plastic jacket. But it's a sweet little device.

 

[ilovereggae]

Nice. What size Mason? Are they the 1/2 gallon ones? I need to get more of the 1/2's. I used my last one for my KCl solution. So I've been using quart jars.

You're totally right about adding that stuff slow or the stirrer will get jacked.

One thing about the quart jars is it was ruff on one of my stirrers and wore off part of the plastic jacket. But it's a sweet little device.

yeah I just have been using the wide mouth quart jars but I just scored these taller half gallon ones from big lots for super cheap. same diameter as the quart ones but tall. not ball brand but good enough. been using them for my harvest since I cant find the ball jars atm. but gonna grab some more and when I do I will switch to those for the tea.

 

[Xsan]

Assuming money and space were not an issue, do yall think you could go water only by using 30 gal pots of BAS or comparable? 50 gal?

Perhaps a top dressing of ewc for flower?

I run ro water so organic calmag is already in the routine and trying to keep to bottle mixing to a minimum

 

[Richard Drysift]

Magne

when i first started with LEDs I was using FFOF/HF/Bus/Roots Organics liquid nutes, and chasing the same problems as you every grow.

once i switched over to living soil all that seemed to go away. If you are using the BAS are you treating it like a living soil? Keeping it moist and/or using a cover crop or something? I've had some good success with homemade supersoil as well as the BAS light mix. just ammending with EWC, sometimes top dressing with it if they look a little hungry. im not 100% water only, but no bottled nutes anymore. i don't really make ACT teas, but more of a 'nutrient' tea that I mix up for a day or 2 using a magnetic stirrer. Applied once a week at most, rest of the time is just water. Usually just a few tbsp of EWC, sometimes with some BAS Pinto bean compost, and tap water and that stays mixing for a day or 2. then right before I feed I add some kelp and powdered horticultural coconut. I have had a few plants get away from me but I feel its more on me slacking and letting the soil dry out too much bc the plant next to it was fine. I haven't used it with the BAS but in the past I also used Recharge with really good success. The problem might not be that your nutrients are finished, it might be that you are letting your microbial life die off and there is nothing to carry it to the plant. especially possible if you are adding any synthetics.

yes...this!! Two things changed the game for me...
1. Starting a worm bin; fresh highly active Ewc recharges any soil and the worm leacheate is like liquid gold. I don’t even give teas anymore because I put a little fresh vermicompost along with a few live worms into the soil directly at transplants.
2. Switching to clean water sources: mainly reclaim the water in my basement with a dehumidifier for my main source. I was dumping it down the drain before and using city tap water high in chloromine and flouride. Also collect rain/snow runoff in buckets when possible and have access to natural spring if all else fails. I have even used Walmart RO water at .37 per gal. in the dead of winter when it’s dry.A clean water source can help extend the life of the soil; I know some say tap is ok but I had issues.... Once you treat the soil as a living thing the plants take care of themselves.

 

[Richard Drysift]

Assuming money and space were not an issue, do yall think you could go water only by using 30 gal pots of BAS or comparable? 50 gal?

Perhaps a top dressing of ewc for flower?

I run ro water so organic calmag is already in the routine and trying to keep to bottle mixing to a minimum

It’s not about the amount of soil in the container it’s about how active that particular mix is. Larger pots can sustain larger plants for longer.. yes of course...but you can grow a fairly large plant in a smallish container if the mix is alive and fertilized. You’ll just be watering more. It’s not that easy to sort of set it and forget it in a big ass pot unless you have a well established soil mix but you can always give something soluble that is also safe for micro herds down the road if you had to.

 

[ilovereggae]

It’s not about the amount of soil in the container it’s about how active that particular mix is. Larger pots can sustain larger plants for longer.. yes of course...but you can grow a fairly large plant in a smallish container if the mix is alive and fertilized. You’ll just be watering more. It’s not that easy to sort of set it and forget it in a big ass pot unless you have a well established soil mix but you can always give something soluble that is also safe for micro herds down the road if you had to.

i feel like huge pots like that will also take a long time to establish roots that can use that much soil, and its gonna be a challenge to keep the moisture levels correct without a blumat or some other self regulating system.

 

[ilovereggae]

Magne

yes...this!! Two things changed the game for me...
1. Starting a worm bin; fresh highly active Ewc recharges any soil and the worm leacheate is like liquid gold. I don’t even give teas anymore because I put a little fresh vermicompost along with a few live worms into the soil directly at transplants.
2. Switching to clean water sources: mainly reclaim the water in my basement with a dehumidifier for my main source. I was dumping it down the drain before and using city tap water high in chloromine and flouride. Also collect rain/snow runoff in buckets when possible and have access to natural spring if all else fails. I have even used Walmart RO water at .37 per gal. in the dead of winter when it’s dry.A clean water source can help extend the life of the soil; I know some say tap is ok but I had issues.... Once you treat the soil as a living thing the plants take care of themselves.

I thought about doing the reclaimed water thing using my portable ac/dh but came across some info stating that it could have traces of plastics or metal contamination from the housing and hoses. not sure how realistic that is.

I was using water i filtered thru my Berkey but I realized that bumps my ph from about 7.2 to 7.8. I also realized its stripping some mineral content from the water. overall LA city water is pretty clean so I say screw it and went back to tap. haven't seen any issues PH wise. every time I check the soil w my blue lab pen it reads 6.7 to 6.8.

 

[Xsan]

It’s not about the amount of soil in the container it’s about how active that particular mix is. Larger pots can sustain larger plants for longer.. yes of course...but you can grow a fairly large plant in a smallish container if the mix is alive and fertilized. You’ll just be watering more. It’s not that easy to sort of set it and forget it in a big ass pot unless you have a well established soil mix but you can always give something soluble that is also safe for micro herds down the road if you had to.

Thank you sir, I have been reading alot of your posts and trying to learn as much as I can. I know you are a big fan of ewc, would that be your soluble? Sorry I'm a caveman