Detroit Comes Begging ....

ViRedd

New Member
Detroit Comes Begging
Can we save corporate dinosaurs that have been mismanaged for decades? Yes, we can!

By Rich Lowry


One of Barack Obama’s acts of courage as a presidential candidate, his campaign maintained, was to give a speech in Detroit excoriating the auto industry for its carbon-emitting sins. Obama noted how the industry had long played “typical Washington politics” by hiring an “army of lobbyists” to get its way.

Well, Obama hadn’t been president-elect for more than 72 hours before he suggested that auto-industry executives descending on Washington to plead for a bailout might get it. Can we save corporate dinosaurs that have been mismanaged for decades? Yes, we can!

The auto companies argue that they have been caught up in the credit crunch, and therefore deserve a piece of the financial bailout. General Motors’ sales dropped 45 percent in October. Ford and GM lost nearly $15 billion in cash between July and September, and GM says it might not have enough cash to operate by early next year.

But this crisis is only the punctuation mark on decades of decline. Once a market-dominating behemoth, GM had 50 percent of the U.S. market in the 1960s. It is down to almost 20 percent now. U.S. consumers have long been voting against U.S. automakers. Now, they’ll be asked to put their tax dollars at risk to preserve the very companies from which they don’t want cars.

The bailout would be of the United Auto Workers as much as of the automakers. It’s the UAW that saddled the Big Three with unsustainable labor costs and obligations to retirees. Detroit has desperately been trying to get out from under this burden, but Ford still lost $1,467 per vehicle in 2007, while GM lost $729 and Chrysler lost $412. Where the UAW doesn’t reign, the industry thrives. Toyota and others profitably manufacture almost 4 million cars in nonunionized states in the South.

The case for the bailout is that the job losses from a GM going down — 100,000 directly, and many more indirectly — would be too painful to bear, and the government would be left holding the bag on GM’s pensions. This line of reasoning conceives of GM essentially as a job programs and welfare agency.

The cost of the government keeping the Big Three afloat would surely be more mandates for politically correct “green” cars. Holman Jenkins of The Wall Street Journal has pointed out the damage of already-existing mandates: “The Detroit Three have been effectively required to build small cars in high-wage, UAW factories, though it means losing money on every car.” If the Big Three have been inefficient until now, just wait until the Sierra Club is in charge.

A bailout of the automakers would signal a new era of government protection from competitive failures. Every other troubled business would show up in Washington, in the spirit of folk singer Tom Paxton’s lines after the Chrysler bailout in 1979:

“I am changing my name to ‘Chrysler.’
I am leaving for that great receiving line,
And when they hand a million grand out,
I’ll be standing with my hand out.
Yes, sir, I’ll get mine.”
The Paulson financial rescue obviously created a dangerous predicate. But the financial system is uniquely fragile. Banks that are otherwise sound, and have been run profitably for decades, can go under in a panic. Wells Fargo, which took an equity injection under duress, shouldn’t be confused with GM.

Washington Post business writer Steven Pearlstein suggests a compromise: Only commit government funds if the auto companies taking them go bankrupt. A bankruptcy court can reduce the obligations to retirees, make it possible for Chrysler and GM to pare back their unnecessary dealerships, and scale back wages and benefits. Top management should be fired. All of this can be set in a “prepackaged” bankruptcy that won’t disrupt operations.

But that probably makes too much sense. We’re a long way from the 1950s, when G.M. President Charles Wilson said, “What is good for General Motors is good for the country.” In a bailout nation, it’s the opposite.

 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
The only problem with the article is that it misquotes the quote.

The correct quote was, "What is good for the Country is good for GM."

Ironically, now, letting GM fail would be good for the country, and not good for GM.
 

tipsgnob

New Member
the best thing for the big 3 would be fire all top management. fire the board of directors and put them under government control...
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
the best thing for the big 3 would be fire all top management. fire the board of directors and put them under government control...
God no, the only thing the government knows how to do is operate at a deficit. The best thing to do with those failing, bloated behemoths it to let them fail.

They had superior products, and an advantage and threw those things away.

Ford had the Ford Contour which actually beat the Corolla and the Camry, and then in the height of stupidity Ford threw that advantage away.

GM had the EV1 which they had to force the test group to give back.

No, those companies deserve to fail. They have been mismanaged for several decades, and any advantage they had has been undermined by stupidity in upper management and self-centered greed by the UAW. Prior to the recent pay cuts the average UAW worker at the Big 3 was making over $80K including benefits.

Why should they continue to benefit, when it was their selfish greed that destroyed those companies?
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
3 million jobs at risk.
Well, if the government is so concerned about them, then it must not just stop at giving them a bail out, but by withdrawing from NAFTA, GATT and WTO, and raising tariffs and duties on foreign automobiles and foreign auto parts.

Personally, by calling for their destruction, I am destroying one of my dreams, and that was that one day I would be able to purchase a Ford Mustang, but I can not justify having that dream fulfilled if it means that I end up paying for the damn thing twice. Once by taxation, and again by purchasing it.

Ford, GM and Chysler deserve to fail, and the UAW deserves to suffer with them. Perhaps then they will understand that self-centered greed is not a path to advantages, and that $50,000 over 20 years is better than $5,000 today.
 

Doctor Pot

Well-Known Member
I have to say, I campaigned for Obama with UAW members, and these people have it easy. They're crippling the auto industry and they lead a really good lifestyle considering what the rest of the country is going through. His union policies are one of the few things I disagree with Obama over.
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
I figure I better pre-empt any attempts to accuse me of hypocrisy. There is a vast difference between my self-centered greed, which is the desire to be able to keep all of what I produce, and the self-centered greed of the UAW which was always demanding more pay, and more benefits.

Edited to add.

Of course, that creates the question, of it the taxes in the United States were not so oppressive wouldn't have the UAW been able to settle for less pay and benefits, and thus there would be no need to talk of a bail out for Detroit?
 

sweetsmell

Well-Known Member
Well, if the government is so concerned about them, then it must not just stop at giving them a bail out, but by withdrawing from NAFTA, GATT and WTO, and raising tariffs and duties on foreign automobiles and foreign auto parts.

Personally, by calling for their destruction, I am destroying one of my dreams, and that was that one day I would be able to purchase a Ford Mustang, but I can not justify having that dream fulfilled if it means that I end up paying for the damn thing twice. Once by taxation, and again by purchasing it.

Ford, GM and Chysler deserve to fail, and the UAW deserves to suffer with them. Perhaps then they will understand that self-centered greed is not a path to advantages, and that $50,000 over 20 years is better than $5,000 today.
I figure I better pre-empt any attempts to accuse me of hypocrisy. There is a vast difference between my self-centered greed, which is the desire to be able to keep all of what I produce, and the self-centered greed of the UAW which was always demanding more pay, and more benefits.

Edited to add.

Of course, that creates the question, of it the taxes in the United States were not so oppressive wouldn't have the UAW been able to settle for less pay and benefits, and thus there would be no need to talk of a bail out for Detroit?

ha easy for you to say. I bet you have never worked a assembly line because if you did work the line you would have a totally different aspect. But whatever. But I guess you are right gm ford and chevy should have just hired a bunch of Mexicans to do it for 8.00 an hr. :roll:
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
ha easy for you to say. I bet you have never worked a assembly line because if you did work the line you would have a totally different aspect. But whatever. But I guess you are right gm ford and chevy should have just hired a bunch of Mexicans to do it for 8.00 an hr. :roll:
I never said they weren't entitled to something reasonable, like $40K, $50K or $60K/year, but the problems that Ford, GM and Chrysler are facing comprise of 3 areas.

1. Government - By agreeing to join the WTO, NAFTA, GATT and all the other trade agreements the government is forcing our businesses to compete with businesses that do not have the same wage requirements. It is against the national interest to not use the ability to regulate trade in the favor of our own corporations.

We should withdraw from NAFTA, GATT, WTO and all the other trade agreements that under mine our ability to ensure that our businesses are capable of competing fairly, here in our country.

2. Executives and Upper Management - Stupid strategic decisions that undermined the viability of those corporations. I think I itemized one for each of GM and Ford. The first of course was GM's first electric vehicle, the EV1, which they did a limited test in California with. They then decided that no one would be interested in it, because of cheap oil. Which was totally absurd, and clearly was not the case, because they had people trying to keep the EV1s that they had been allowed to Lease.

3. UAW, refusing to allow wage cuts and lay offs when it was necessary to ensure the competitiveness of those companies. It does no one any good to have $5,000 ($2,500 after taxes) today, if it means they are going to lose their jobs next year, because the company they are working for can not afford to produce their products.

Then there's the fact that there are people that are not even part of the UAW that are suffering because of the UAWs actions. Truck drivers that are losing their jobs working for GM and Ford, because there are no longer vehicles to transport.


And what does me working on an assembly line have to do with anything, especially when I never commented on how hard or how easy it is. Though if we are going to discuss different jobs, perhaps you'd be interested in trying to work as a computer programmer, and tell me how easy it is to do that.

Or, I got one, how about we all try to work as those people that clean out septic tanks. Now there's a job that has to be a shit job, literally.
 

sweetsmell

Well-Known Member
3. UAW, refusing to allow wage cuts and lay offs when it was necessary to ensure the competitiveness of those companies. It does no one any good to have $5,000 ($2,500 after taxes) today, if it means they are going to lose their jobs next year, because the company they are working for can not afford to produce their products.


Then there's the fact that there are people that are not even part of the UAW that are suffering because of the UAWs actions. Truck drivers that are losing their jobs working for GM and Ford, because there are no longer vehicles to transport.

And what does me working on an assembly line have to do with anything, especially when I never commented on how hard or how easy it is. Though if we are going to discuss different jobs, perhaps you'd be interested in trying to work as a computer programmer, and tell me how easy it is to do that.

Or, I got one, how about we all try to work as those people that clean out septic tanks. Now there's a job that has to be a shit job, literally.

Ok this is the way I look at at. It is not fair to cut a assembly line workers pay because the developers and the big wigs gm or ford made a shitty business move period. And all bullshit aside lets say you signed a contract to do computer work for this companay for 5 years and when you signed it you were suppose to make 45k a year. Well 2 years deep into this contract you just had a new babby and Purchased a new home and then your boss comes to you one day and said " hey joe sorry man but things are not doing so hot around here and we are going to have to cut back you pay to 30k a year". So what do you do now? Well should you and your faimly suffer because for whatever the reason may be? I know I would tell them to fuck off. My family needs my money. And if they are having problems you should be able to renogiate you pay after your contract is up! And as for me talking about doing line work I hear people all fucking day say this about over paid and easy work blah blah blah but you know what . When I worked for the uaw my starting pay was fucking $16 an hr. Hell my friend with out a high school dep. made $13 an hr banging nails(building houses). And IIRC top pay for the uaw in our area was $26 an hr. 26 an hr X 40hr work week =1040 a week X 52 weeks in a year gives you a grand total of $54,080 a year at TOP PAY! So you can say all day the uaw was the fall of this or the fall of that but you know what I seen it first had and I am telling you that is BULLSHIT! But I know how you are going to come back and tell me I am wrong and I dont know what I am talking about but you know what fuck it I everyone has to blame someone and it is always eayser to point your finger at someone else that point it at yourself!


P.S sorry about my grammar and spelling :blsmoke:
 

tipsgnob

New Member
I never said they weren't entitled to something reasonable, like $40K, $50K or $60K/year, but the problems that Ford, GM and Chrysler are facing comprise of 3 areas.

1. Government - By agreeing to join the WTO, NAFTA, GATT and all the other trade agreements the government is forcing our businesses to compete with businesses that do not have the same wage requirements. It is against the national interest to not use the ability to regulate trade in the favor of our own corporations.

We should withdraw from NAFTA, GATT, WTO and all the other trade agreements that under mine our ability to ensure that our businesses are capable of competing fairly, here in our country.

2. Executives and Upper Management - Stupid strategic decisions that undermined the viability of those corporations. I think I itemized one for each of GM and Ford. The first of course was GM's first electric vehicle, the EV1, which they did a limited test in California with. They then decided that no one would be interested in it, because of cheap oil. Which was totally absurd, and clearly was not the case, because they had people trying to keep the EV1s that they had been allowed to Lease.

3. UAW, refusing to allow wage cuts and lay offs when it was necessary to ensure the competitiveness of those companies. It does no one any good to have $5,000 ($2,500 after taxes) today, if it means they are going to lose their jobs next year, because the company they are working for can not afford to produce their products.

Then there's the fact that there are people that are not even part of the UAW that are suffering because of the UAWs actions. Truck drivers that are losing their jobs working for GM and Ford, because there are no longer vehicles to transport.


And what does me working on an assembly line have to do with anything, especially when I never commented on how hard or how easy it is. Though if we are going to discuss different jobs, perhaps you'd be interested in trying to work as a computer programmer, and tell me how easy it is to do that.

Or, I got one, how about we all try to work as those people that clean out septic tanks. Now there's a job that has to be a shit job, literally.
you put a price on what their job is worth, and you have never done their job. I think your job should only pay 12k. seems fair, you obviously are a slacker.
 

NorthwestBuds

Well-Known Member
you put a price on what their job is worth, and you have never done their job. I think your job should only pay 12k. seems fair, you obviously are a slacker.
His website is a slacker too (hit counters don't lie.) No one listens to him there so he gives us with his "wisdom" here. :(
 

VTXDave

Well-Known Member
Assembly line workers don't deserve $25.00/hour just to put a nut on a bolt...period. I've worked assembly line work (my first job out of school as a bench tech for Friden Alcatel and on the line for Icicle Seafoods in Homer, AK)and my father was a 23 year employee for Peterbilt and a member of the Machinist's Union. I know a thing or two about both.
 

sweetsmell

Well-Known Member
Assembly line workers don't deserve $25.00/hour just to put a nut on a bolt...period. I've worked assembly line work (my first job out of school as a bench tech for Friden Alcatel)and my father was a 23 year employee for Peterbilt and a member of the Machinist's Union. I know a thing or two about both.

Please explain why they dont. I would love to hear your point on why they don't after 20 years of service? Oh and just a heads up we just did not put a nut on a bolt
 

tipsgnob

New Member
my father was a member of iron worker local 60 for 55 years anda labor lawyer. I was in the operating engineers union. do people really want to go back to a time when there were no unions?
 

sweetsmell

Well-Known Member
my father was a member of iron worker local 60 for 55 years anda labor lawyer. I was in the operating engineers union. do people really want to go back to a time when there were no unions?

Sound like glory at first leave and then you get the axe. I have a friend that 20 of them left the union and they said how they dont need them blah blah blah and then not even 3 weeks after they left the union were cut back from 40 hrs a week to 15 for no reason. Now every one of them wishes they would have stayed with the union
 

VTXDave

Well-Known Member
Please explain why they dont. I would love to hear your point on why they don't after 20 years of service? Oh and just a heads up we just did not put a nut on a bolt
It's unskilled labor that a monkey can do, that's why. Like I said, I was part of a line and I saw what these people did...repetitive work that required a bit more dexterity than what a machine can do. I was an assembly line worker too...as a bench tech. I took the failed postal meters and troubleshooted them. It got monotamous and mundane...run through 33 machine programmed tests and troubleshoot to component level if a given test fails...whoopee ding. I wanted more, so what did I do? I went to night school/college and earned my degree to become a Software Engineer designing the OS's that operate those postal meters. 20 years of tenure for someone doing the same job for 20 years does not entitle that person to anything. If said person wants more, then they should strive to attain more skills and make themselves more valuable. Not too terribly difficult to understand. Like I said, my father worked a line for 23 years and never did one damn thing to better himself. He never went to school to gain more knowledge/skills and he never aspired to take on new tasks at work. He spent all those years in the Cab Trim Dept putting on manifolds to the tractor/trailers and such. Should he have been entitled to more? The answer is a definitive..."NO"
 
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