Root Aphids?

[paparov]

Hello to everyone. I'm doing a perpetual grow, having both autoflowers and photoperiods. Autoflowers are in first weeks of flower, some photoperiods are in late veg and some are seedlings. The current one is the third batch of autoflowers. The first one I had went really well, good yields and quality. The second batch was fucked up but I attributed that to light too close (vertical 600w HPS from horizontal cmh 315) and top dressing a soil mix I had made which I hadn't let it cook. The third batch of autoflowers was going ok for the first few weeks although plants remained really small. On the other hand I have 20 autos in 5x5 so I was expecting smaller size but many more bud sites. Photoperiods were going pretty well except the occasional underwatering for some of them - I'm hand watering all plants, some days I'm very tired and remain back on schedule.

About 1 week ago things started going south. Some autos started getting rapid yellowing (I've had this happen in the past in other grows as well), some photos started developing spots on leaves and loss of vigor. At the beginning I attributed this to the underwatering. Throughout all grows I had some fungus gnats (they are fungus gnats indeed, I have checked the traps with microscope) and I have seen larvae in the soil. From day 1 I was inoculating soil mix with B.Bassiana (active fungus in Botanigard) so I thought no big deal. Many times in the past my plants have gotten over them with 1 or 2 stunted for a little bit but no big deal.

Throughout many of my grows things are going really well in veg and then in the first weeks of flower I'm getting rapid yellowing of fan leaves on many plants. Some grows are going really well from beginning to the end. It's the first time things got also fucked up in veg and that put me in second thoughts. Usually all of my plants are growing in fabric pots but this time I included some plastic pots I had too. I recently got a new (cheap) microscope and I thought I would look under the drainage holes of the plastic pots. Roots were not in good health. I saw some aphid like creatures but I wasn't sure if they are beneficial mites. Then as I was checking the holes, a really tiny creature started moving fast to the sides of the container. I smashed it with my hand and I checked it with my microscope. I got a blurry picture of it and I would like your opinions. I'm almost certain it's a root aphid.

My thousand dollars question is what the fuck am I doing in this case? I spent the last few days reading non stop RA threads and today I got:

Imidacloprid 20% (for seedlings and vegging photos)
Pyrethrum
Neem Oil
A mixture containing B.bassiana BB41, M. anisopliae MA45, P. Lilanicus PL42 - couldn't find Botanigard for now.
Also trying to find Met 52 - don't know if benefical nematodes are worth it due to the large number of containers and their cost

Thank you for any suggestions, sorry for the length of the post. I wish a happy new year to everyone.

 

[paparov]

Some remarks from reflections that are now just arising after these 2 months of intensive but careless growing with the company of these despicable creatures:

1. They seem to explode when playing by VPD values of high humidity.

2. Plants show a plethora of symptoms. For autos things start going south after the first pistils appear but I'm certain they affect their growth during their preflowering stretching as well. Second batch of autos started having intensive yellowing of the leaves and different inexplicable deficiencies after the end of their pre-flowering. Third batch of autos stayed in dwarf size, most of them. Of course after the end of pre-flowering they also started showing all the bad symptoms of the aphids infestations which growers who hadn't realized they had them (like myself) attribute to under/over watering, soil mix being on the "light" side of ferts etc. Then giving them some extra organic liquid fertilizers (e.g Biobizz Bio Bloom) seems to exarcebate the symptoms.

3. If their numbers start growing veg plants show symptoms as well. They have a drooping appearence, their leaves get lighter, some browning on lower leaves etc. Some plants remain very short. Their flying form starts being definitely much more noticeable but it can be confused with fungus gnats. Many grwers conviently choose to not occupy their minds too much with this issue and may only be giving remedies for fungus gnats.

4. Aspirin seems to be limiting their damage, at least in veg plants.

5. Maybe the first batch of autoflowers (the ones who were the first in this grow) weren't affected because of adding really big amounts of insect frass while making my soil mix. I didn't do the same for the next soil mixes.

Now what am I doing? With some autos just starting to get in pre-flower mode (1), others being in mid flowering (2), mature vegging photoperiod plants (3) and seedlings (4)?

1) Give Bauveria Bassiana and Met52 with every second watering or even every watering, add Bt bacillus to the arsenal.
1a) Pyrethrum? I don't know about soil drenches with it, I'm afraid I may stall the roots and make problems worse. The same is true for intesticidal soaps.
1b) Try Azadidrachtin along with B. Bassiana and Met?
1c) What about essential oils?

2) Same with 1.

3) Evaluate which vegging plants are worth it, cull the rest. Give Imidacloprid (2 doses 3-6 days apart). Transplant in new medium before the second dosage. Give the second dosage after I complete the transplants. Veg them for 2 more weeks minimum. Couple this approach with Enzyme products, B.Bassiana - Met and maybe nematodes. They act synergistically with Imid.

4) Same approach with 3.

Other methods of Action:

1) Keep humidity low in growing spaces.
2) Cleanliness of course. And maybe spraying with chemical intesticides on surfaces of the growing spaces along with essential oil mixtures. Should do that on the rest of the house as well. Especially disinfecting drains etc.
3) Cull my potting plants in my balcony - they could be the culprit for them.
4) Goes without saying that before entering grow room, shower and fresh clothes.

Let's see how it goes with these motherfuckers. They are a challenge in another level which can make a grower really confused and disappointed. Yesterday I was in a really bad shape. Don't know if anyone is reading all that but it's cool . Happy grows, happy life to all of you.

 

[Oliver Pantsoff]

Is that the only aphid you saw running around or have you seen others?

OP

 

[paparov]

I saw another white aphid looking creature while I was examining roots through the drainage holes of the plant. I'm not one hundred percent certain about that one, it was moving fast when it saw the light of my microscope - could be a beneficial mite. I also saw fungus gnat larvae. Other than this, when I was watering I saw tiny creatures coming on the surface, with the naked eye they looked like the one I captured in the microscope pic. The microscope pic is blurry, I know but looking it closely in my phone I saw the characteristic dual pipes on its back. Why, you don't think it's a root aphid in my pic?

* Second day with low humidity (~40%) and damage progresses more slowly. Same could be said about plants not receiving excessive amounts of light. I noticed that plants which were receiving bigger amounts of light energy deteriorated much faster than the rest.

 

[Oliver Pantsoff]

Curious cuz I dealt with root aphids for a min, but they were kinda transparent. I couldn't even see em. I read your posts, and it seems like we had the same critter. Man, they are hard to beat. The ones I had laugh and back peddle in imid. I had success with azamax, spectracide, and major cleaning after every round. They can be beat just gotta stay on em. I dont wish them on any grower.

OP

 

[mr4tune]

I dealt with them about 5 years ago. Everything was awesome then all the deficiencies started. Had 1 gallon pots of coco and when you pulled the pots off you could seem crawling around. Very very small, but I didn't need a scope for them. Looked trippy seeing so many of something that small.

Higher the humidity the worse it was. The fact i was multi-feeding daily added to it. I hope someones found a remedy because i fought for months and ended up losing everything. I wasn't willing to go nuclear on them. It was explained to me at the time that it was better to shut down, clean, and wait than to fight a long battle and lose anyways. I hope that this is wrong nowadays. Best of luck.

 

[paparov]

@ Oliver Pantsoff: There are at least 4 different types according to this seemingly knowleadgeable fella: https://www.hydrocanna.nl/threads/fungus-gnats-or-aphids-how-can-you-tell.7127/. They are fucking hard and they really sneaky, those bastards.
Wtf, laughed on Imid eh? Makes sense if growers here and there are using it the wrong way - those demons get tolerance. Maybe the had come from another growing space where said grower was not doing his/her homework and got them in Hulk mode.
Spectracide is in my mind as well - a similar product actually with half potency but the dosage makes the poison so..Did you research its half life? And how were you using Azamax?

Man, major cleaning is a must. I got really careless because with little funding I wanted to do a (relatively) big project. And hand watering here and there didn't help making proper observations. Another thing that may contributed to that is my dog who is strolling in my balcony with potted plants. Like wtf, I have to throw them away too? My dog on the other hand I'm not exchanging her with anything. Just gotta be extra cautious.

@mr4tune: Yeah, playing in CO2 enclosed rooms trying to catch up with VPD (even got 2 new ultrasonic humidifiers) must have been an extended "funding" for their FUTR (Fuck Up The Roots) shop. Tell you what. I split the plants into groups according to their age and appearence. I have some which are about to be harvested. With all this fuckery I didn't even have time to water them. I let them much dryer than usual. Well only days passed but they certainly fattened up! The fan leaves got even more fucked but we are not smoking leaves and the plants are so close to harvesting, so.. Humidity had reached 35% in there. Yeah, I feel for you man...Fighting for months, spending money down, the drain, thinking compulsively what to do with those fuckers, seeing them everywhere. I'm sorry to read that - although I guess you must have learned some valuable lessons in the process. Nowadays how are you playing ball?

What kind of setup? I don't think many things have changed, if anything, with the extended use of chemical pesticides (a well kept practice for a plant where money literally grows on its branches for many people), those sons of bitches must have gotten other kinds of tolerance. Hope this is not the case with me.

* think for bigger vegging plants and seedlings, an initial chemical approach (Imid/Confidor - it's strong , 20% percent Imid, used primarily for tomatoes and cucumbers) 0,4 ml/gal of 2 application spaced a few days apart along with entomopathogenic fungi and trichoderma could save the game. Along with traps for these despicable crawlers I could roll for 2 months and then shut down and do a proper run.

 

[mr4tune]

I had just moved into a new place and that was the 2nd crop. Ended up shutting down for almost 2 months and starting all over. I started looking into the nuclear options and I hit a point and was like I can't put that shit into my plants... I grow in undercurrent now and use coco for indexing mothers. Only grow from seed now lol I haven't brought a clone into my place since. Worst experience growing I've ever had. They just keep coming back.

 

[paparov]

Man, I have read so many stories of getting horrible shit transmitted by clones. But it's an honest question on my behalf, with a serious quarantine protocol everything should be alright...? I mean, a plan to prevent the major insects and diseases. No matter what, growing for ourselves provides the best for our mind and body- whether that's cannabis, tomato or zucchinis. I feel sorry I will have to throw away my lavenders and the rest of the plants in my balcony. That's a spot where I'm not gonna give Imid for sure, gotta love those bees. Like I wouldn't give Spinosad too...This is the most ethical stance on your behalf. I'm growing organics for over a decade now and I haven't used anything other than beneficial microbes for protection against pests. But these motherfuckers need the nukes for starters and then introduction of the bennies, there is no other feasible way, especially when there their flyers are around.

If you gave the nukes and then cloned them, I'm almost a certain a lab analysis would show nothing by harvest. I read a lot about it the last few days and saw an awesome post in IcMag explaining why it's not dangerous if it is used right. All the best man, hope we never see them again. No grower deserves this plague and what's scary about it is that many people have them and may get to understand the issue after years of mediocre harvests at best. If I didn't have those plastic pots for this round I wouldn't identify the issue or I would identify it too late. Actually it was is too late already for 40% of my plants so far.

 

[oill]

Hello to everyone. I'm doing a perpetual grow, having both autoflowers and photoperiods. Autoflowers are in first weeks of flower, some photoperiods are in late veg and some are seedlings. The current one is the third batch of autoflowers. The first one I had went really well, good yields and quality. The second batch was fucked up but I attributed that to light too close (vertical 600w HPS from horizontal cmh 315) and top dressing a soil mix I had made which I hadn't let it cook. The third batch of autoflowers was going ok for the first few weeks although plants remained really small. On the other hand I have 20 autos in 5x5 so I was expecting smaller size but many more bud sites. Photoperiods were going pretty well except the occasional underwatering for some of them - I'm hand watering all plants, some days I'm very tired and remain back on schedule.

About 1 week ago things started going south. Some autos started getting rapid yellowing (I've had this happen in the past in other grows as well), some photos started developing spots on leaves and loss of vigor. At the beginning I attributed this to the underwatering. Throughout all grows I had some fungus gnats (they are fungus gnats indeed, I have checked the traps with microscope) and I have seen larvae in the soil. From day 1 I was inoculating soil mix with B.Bassiana (active fungus in Botanigard) so I thought no big deal. Many times in the past my plants have gotten over them with 1 or 2 stunted for a little bit but no big deal.

Throughout many of my grows things are going really well in veg and then in the first weeks of flower I'm getting rapid yellowing of fan leaves on many plants. Some grows are going really well from beginning to the end. It's the first time things got also fucked up in veg and that put me in second thoughts. Usually all of my plants are growing in fabric pots but this time I included some plastic pots I had too. I recently got a new (cheap) microscope and I thought I would look under the drainage holes of the plastic pots. Roots were not in good health. I saw some aphid like creatures but I wasn't sure if they are beneficial mites. Then as I was checking the holes, a really tiny creature started moving fast to the sides of the container. I smashed it with my hand and I checked it with my microscope. I got a blurry picture of it and I would like your opinions. I'm almost certain it's a root aphid.

My thousand dollars question is what the fuck am I doing in this case? I spent the last few days reading non stop RA threads and today I got:

Imidacloprid 20% (for seedlings and vegging photos)
Pyrethrum
Neem Oil
A mixture containing B.bassiana BB41, M. anisopliae MA45, P. Lilanicus PL42 - couldn't find Botanigard for now.
Also trying to find Met 52 - don't know if benefical nematodes are worth it due to the large number of containers and their cost

Thank you for any suggestions, sorry for the length of the post. I wish a happy new year to everyone.

Just put a load of pest off blocks in your room for a week. Seal the room and don't go in there a lot.

 

[mr4tune]

After dealing with RA's the rest are a breeze honestly. Just trust where your getting the cuts from and do thorough visual inspection with a scope prior to buying/bringing em into your pad. That was my downfall. Had I inspected then I could have avoided the back to back crop failures. Like I said in the DM, once you bring 'em in, those fuckers are exceptional at surviving and finding places to hide.

 

[paparov]

Hello to everyone. Last few days have been really hard - actually it's one of the hardest periods in my life. I have invested lots of time, energy and money in this project and what I'm getting is a big FUCK YOU by these scums.

So far I have to report:

Tried Imid (Confidor) on vegging girls, saw definite improvement within 2 days - I just did root drenches with runoff. They have all been gathered in 1 room though and they are a little crammed. Afraid of PM - sprayed Serenade (B.subtilis) on some which were weaker than others. Also gotta keep an eye for the mites, after Imid plants attract them a lot. Gonna spray cinammon essential oil to deter them.

The autos. I am trying 3 different approaches:

1st approach: Root drench with pyrethrum 5% (5 ml/gal) until runoff. Then soak for 20 minutes in a mixture of Botanigard (B.Bassiana), M.anisopliae, Trichoderma, Cannazym (included 1 drop of rosemary, cedar essential oil per liter). So far this seems to have worked really well. To the girls I tried this yellowing hasn't progressed and buds are continuing fattening up.

2nd approach: Based on this post by Triton Genetics (see comment in the article), I soak in 5% pyrethrum for 20 seconds and the next day I'm using Botanigard. Tried it in a few girls only because I don't think it's a good idea to water back to back for 2 days.

3d approach: Soak in 5% pyrethrum for 20 seconds and after half an hour soak for 20 minutes in in a mixture of Botanigard (B.Bassiana), M.anisopliae, Trichoderma, Cannazym (including 1 drop of rosemary, cedar essential oil per liter).

It is the biggest challenge of my growing "career" in 12 years. Although I may have gotten these fuckers in the past from time to time but because I wasn't playing with VPD values to such extent like this grow, they went unnoticeable.

Obesrvations:

I have these bitches for at least 1,5 month now. What is interesting is that without knowing it back then, I did the following with 2 auto girls: They were showing signs of deficiencies so I cut the bottoms of the smart pots and double potted them in 1,5 gal of my soil mix. I did that about 1,5 week after they started showing pistils. Gradually the girls went back to full health mode. It's interesting, I think if someone wants to ameliorate the symptoms, he can double pot up to 3d week of flowering and may be in for a pleasant surprise. I'm gonna try this with 3 more girls.

I must have tracked the source of the problem. Fucking cheap (relatively) worm compost. I opened a new bag of it and I found RA inside. The bag had been left in the room of the autos for some time now - after the problems had started - but I'm almost certain that's the culprit. The same brand of compost is what I had used to make the soil mix for the first autos which started showing problems - I also top dressed with that. Fucking great...I want to notify this fucking company about their great gifts to the customers but the fact that I don't exactly have a license for this grow makes it more difficult.

Question: Thinking about heat treating the rooms, one by one. There is no other way to disinfect, it's a mess. Anyone who has done it? I was disinfecting for hours my kitchen and my bathroom - went through everything, chlorine almost poisoned me - gotta get a respirator mask ASAP. In the process I killed (with difficulty as they are agile) 7 RA fliers.

Any other suggestions about the vegging girls, the ones I used IMID? Certainly don't wanna do that a habit. Actually thinking of putting them in flower mode after 10 days to try and save something out of this disaster- during flowering they will be receiving B.Bassiana - Nematodes or Pyrethrum - B.Bassiana. Pyrethrum is nasty to handle though, makes me allergic.

Happy grows to everyone.

 

[parrajara]

This plant was rootbound and its been like 20 days since transplant. It keeps growing but the color isn't changing and it never fully recovers when I water it. It doesn't perk up like my other plant does. It ain't nutrient deficiency or surplus, so you think it's root aphids ? Mine look similar color

 

[printer]

I have been battling these little bastards for a couple of months. I tossed out a number of plants that were halfway through flower because they were loaded with them. The problem with the plants was they were extremely Super cropped and they were just a tight mass of vegetation. There was always places that escaped my spray and the came back from seeming to be eradicated.

I am going to try dunking my plants completely upside down in a bucket of water and canola oil with dish soap. I have found it does kill them but needs to be wet to effect the bugs. If you don't spray them or they walk into it it will not get them. Thankfully I have small plants, mind you I am mainly growing these so I can pollinate and interrupt my growing for the buggers to die off. I don't know if it is a good idea but I am covering the tops of the pots with landscaping fabric to keep them from returning to the coco. Hopefully I catch all the flyers with sticky tape and the larva ones on the leaves with the dunk. I thought the fabric was suppose to allow the water through but it does not seem to very quickly. I am going to have to lift a section of fabric to water the plants. The fabric should allow air through for the roots.

I used duct tape one either side to seal the cut fabric.

 

[printer]

Well it is done. Hope my plants survive and the buggers don't. And a day late a whole bunch sucking the life out of the leaves and quite a few yellowed.

 

[printer]

Well it looks like the bugs are gone. But dunking them left an oily sheen on them. This morning I checked and a number of bottom leaves were turning crispy. I got a bucket of soapy water and dunked them inside and then into a fresh water bucket. I hope they come back without too much damage. Crossing my fingers.

 

[paparov]

Hoping your babies make it man. In my case things got pretty fucked up even with chems. I attribute this to having plants in different stages of life, from early veg to mid flowering. So I could not use the same approach with everything. Even using Imid and disinfecting rooms one by one didn't do it in my case. I was forced to throw away 80% of my plants.

It's interesting to note that autos did much better than photos, I had an ok harvest with them. With autos I didn't use any chems - with photos I did and they are in much worse shape, yellowing and everything without even putting them into flower mode. What made things much worse for the photos is that they got rootbound. That was the turning point where things went really south.

I don't even know if it is worth it to flower the remaining photos - some of them look pretty alright but still.... Thinking about throwing them out in my balcony. It's winter here but it's a mild winter - average temps during the day are in the 60's, during the night they fall in the 50's. It's that or setting up a tent only for them - but I'm afraid I won't be able to start anything new in the meantime, even if I isolate the tent.

This incident changed my whole approach in growing. Next time is gonna include a full IPM plan with B.bassiana + nematodes from day 1. It's just that I think for this to work, first I have to get rid of everything. Anyone who has tried ozone for disinfection after a visit from those bitches? Thinking about getting a 28.000 mg/h device and leave it running in every room (even the ones I don't grow) for some days before I attempt to grow again.

 

[paparov]

Well it looks like the bugs are gone. But dunking them left an oily sheen on them. This morning I checked and a number of bottom leaves were turning crispy. I got a bucket of soapy water and dunked them inside and then into a fresh water bucket. I hope they come back without too much damage. Crossing my fingers.

Nice idea about the fabric. A member in IcMag was using Kirkland dryer sheets with much success. Put loads of yellow traps in the room too (at least 1 trap per plant) - make sure to put some near the lights for the flying fuckers. And certainly it wouldn't hurt to be spraying a little bit of rosemary oil in the outside of the pots to deter them.

 

[GrOwThMoNgeR]

I been treating them and came back today and even more are there! Arggghhhhhhhh!

 

[GrOwThMoNgeR]

Nice idea about the fabric. A member in IcMag was using Kirkland dryer sheets with much success. Put loads of yellow traps in the room too (at least 1 trap per plant) - make sure to put some near the lights for the flying fuckers. And certainly it wouldn't hurt to be spraying a little bit of rosemary oil in the outside of the pots to deter them.

Rosemary they laugh off neem oil and rosemary even more.