CatHedral
Well-Known Member
Well mierda
Another Republican President, Another Recession.
- Thread starter hanimmal
- Start date
hanimmal
Well-Known Member
It just sucks that the real problem that black people and other minority communities have had is the lack of access to good medical treatment because it was kept out of their reach.It's a fair hypothesis. I haven't seen a good recent work up comparing education level to vaccination rates but earlier surveys showed higher level of education tracked with a willingness to get vaccinated.
If you listen to what Black people say about why there is a discrepancy, they talk about the awful history that the Black community has had with the US medical system as a factor.
COVID-19 Vaccines
Vaccines are seen as one of the best ways to stop COVID-19. Learn more about the types of vaccines, including the newly approved Novavax.www.webmd.com
It's possible that both factors are important.
I try not to let my morals drift, because it leads nowhere good. If one guy rapes five people and one guy rapes thirty people, they're both pieces of shit *and* one of them has done more shitty things. They're both the same in one respect, and different in another. Choose to see only one and it's usually for the purpose of obfuscating the other.
Sexual content makes a difference when it makes a difference. When Clinton had to go through the impeachment process because of his sexual content, that's when it makes a difference. No different from our personal life and work life, in that, if we do something in our personal life that requires our employer to have a bunch of meetings to discuss our punishment, then we've already fucked up, regardless of the outcome.
CatHedral
Well-Known Member
At the same time, I need to correct for the neo-Calvinists who seriously overvalue sexual behavior. There is a huge corpus of literature in the US Protestant world utterly trashing ordinary human sexuality.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
That ignores the very real harm that racist medical practitioners have visited upon Black people.
The list is of medial malpractice done to Black people is egregious. Forced lobotomies in insane asylums, castration, women have ovaries removed without consent, the Tuskegee syphilis experiment, that one went on for 40 years.
Yes, economic and social factors are barriers for Black people when accessing medical care but there is very good reason for their skepticism toward white medical professionals.
I hear you. It sucks when the good thing and shitty thing align for a moment, because you can't yet see at what point they diverge and reveal their true motive. I'll admit to being a bit old fashioned when it comes to relationships, but ultimately I do remember not to allow my outrage to exceed that of those who are involved. So, when it comes to Hillary, if she's fine with it, then I'm fine with it. But, when it comes to the way that relationship interfered with work, and when it comes to a person in a position of power taking advantage of a younger subordinate, I'm very comfortable with my judgement.
CatHedral
Well-Known Member
Even so it does matter when folks use obsolete sexual mores to justify hateful politics.
It does, though impeachment is an objectively valid complaint. Anyway, it's always good to run people through a consistency check to verify what the deal is.
hanimmal
Well-Known Member
Defiantly wasn't my intention to ignore the real horrifying shit that has been done. I was talking more in the last 40-50 years it is the inability to access healthcare that has left many of our people today unable to know why we should trust doctors. And this vacuum makes the horrifying very real examples of the times racist scientists/doctors harmed our people that much more potent propaganda.
And no question that there is so many situations that racists have harmed our non melanin-lite communities. But I would also argue that even in a lot of those examples are also lack of proper care.
Like in the Tuskegee experiment. Yes the injection of syphilis was horrifyingly evil. But the real damage was done when they were not given the available treatment to easily cure the disease. That is the parallel that I think is important to understand as racist propagandists push these communities to not get the extremely safe and highly effective free vaccine using these examples are really just continuing this trend.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
This is what you posted:
COVID-19
covid19vaccine.health.ny.gov
From the state. No intentional misleading, but you right
Please note that you report raw population numbers. I don't know why you reported raw numbers of people but that's what you did.
This is the link to New York State's vaccination report:
COVID-19
From that page:
On this page, one can only see percentages. So, you did not use this page to produce your graphic. But that's OK. Let's just dig a bit deeper.
On NY state's information page, they list 17.3% of the total population over age 15 are AA and 14.7% of this group are vaccinated. If I do the math, NY is saying that 85% of all African Americans over the age of 15 are vaccinated.
I'm not saying I believe that data, just that is the data you cited.
So, using the data set you mislead with,
What can we say about mandates now that the bafflegab is removed? Your point being that it is going to do grievous harm to Black people. According to your data, the vast majority of African Americans are vaccinated. What is the harm?
Dryxi
Well-Known Member
You were slightly late to my edit, had to stop driving :/ but ya, I came to the same conclusion that 85% (as stated by the CDC) is vaccinated. Good work! Luckily someone was there earlier to show me I could've been (and was) inaccurate and led me to search into it more. Disparities in vaccine distribution coupled with mandates resulting in loss of income and/or other restrictions could very well impact people, but as shown, not as many as I had initially thought.This is what you posted:
View attachment 4998942
Please note that you report raw population numbers. I don't know why you reported raw numbers of people but that's what you did.
This is the link to New York State's vaccination report:
COVID-19
From that page:
View attachment 4998927
On this page, one can only see percentages. So, you did not use this page to produce your graphic. But that's OK. Let's just dig a bit deeper.
On NY state's information page, they list 17.3% of the total population over age 15 are AA and 14.7% of this group are vaccinated. If I do the math, NY is saying that 85% of all African Americans over the age of 15 are vaccinated.
I'm not saying I believe that data, just that is the data you cited.
So, using the data set you mislead with,
What can we say about mandates now that the bafflegab is removed? Your point being that it is going to do grievous harm to Black people. According to your data, the vast majority of African Americans are vaccinated. What is the harm?
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
There is a difference between "inability to access healthcare" and "some white doctors are racists who deliberately harm their Black patients". I don't think the medical profession is any more clean of racist practitioners than police are clean of racist cops. I'm talking not just "back in time" but today. Racists in medical and police professions do more than just harm people, they make people afraid to seek help. Afraid for good reason, I might add.
hanimmal
Well-Known Member
You don't think if those Tuskagee men woman and children had access to more doctors that were looking out for them that they would not have had someone discover what was going on far sooner?
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
You miss the point.
A hundred white doctors in the room. 20 are raging racists and there is no way to tell one from the other. Even if doctors have half the population norm, there are 10 doctors who would harm a Black person if they could or not care if they did. Access to more doctors doesn't change the fact that there are literally killers among white doctors just like there are killers among cops. It's not the same as "don't have access".
hanimmal
Well-Known Member
I think you are missing my point.
Not having access to good healthcare, for all the very real reasons, has caused the ability for today's minority communities to not have the trust that they should in the science behind the very safe and very effective free and available vaccine that would keep them safe.
And people are using the very real horrors of the past to stoke this distrust in an attempt to continue to keep our communities from getting the care that they need.
Maybe if you are talking about being in a vacuum. But in a real life situation like this and several black people, that are able to communicate, they would eventually figure out which doctors to avoid and which to trust.
I would just ask not to forget the 'to good healthcare' part of my sentence. It makes a big difference in the context.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
I'll say it again.
There are literally killers among white doctors. These are people who would actually do harm to their Black patients if they could. That is very different than "not having access". Which is also true. But that doesn't cause the suspicion and fear as knowing that some of those white doctors are killers.
Let's say you are shown two jars of identically appearing cookies. One jar contains 20% poisoned cookies and the other contains no poisoned cookies. Which jar would you take the cookie from?
Would you still choose from either jar if you didn't know?
hanimmal
Well-Known Member
I dont understand why you are ignoring the 'to good healthcare' part.
Are you pretending like I am saying that they have been getting good access to quality healthcare? Because I am not.
Are you saying that the situation you describe is not one that would make it easier to spread propaganda to keep people from getting a very safe and effective vaccine? Because I would say it is. Especially if you highlight those 20% of 'poison cookies' over and over again right as you hand over a batch that you know are not poisoned.
'If you didn't know' is what I am saying is the problem, which it also seems you are too.
(Edit I forgot to add: If this is not what you are saying) I guess I really don't understand your point.
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Fogdog
Well-Known Member
What you said:
"Not having access to good healthcare, for all the very real reasons, has caused the ability for today's minority communities to not have the trust that they should in the science behind the very safe and very effective free and available vaccine that would keep them safe."
Is this true? Citation, perhaps? I haven't read anything that provides evidence that what you said is true.
What I have read is this:
According to work by the economists Marcella Alsan and Marianne Wanamaker, black men are less likely than white men to seek health care and more likely to die at younger ages. Their analysis suggests that one-third of the black-white gap in male life expectancy in the immediate aftermath of the study could be attributed to the legacy of distrust connected to the Tuskegee study.
Bad Medicine: The Harm That Comes From Racism (Published 2020)
Racial bias still affects many aspects of health care.
From the same article:
Reinforcing the fact of racial bias in health care, a recent study found that care for black patients is better when they see black doctors. The study randomly assigned 1,300 African-Americans to black or nonblack primary care physicians. Those who saw black doctors received 34 percent more preventive services. One reason for this, supported by the study, is increased trust and communication.
So, there it is. Obviously, I didn't identify a single racist doctor from those passages. But there is plenty of evidence that racism and distrust due to racism is affecting healthcare outcomes for Black people.
hanimmal
Well-Known Member
Im just going to say, I don't know why you are acting like you need to troll me on this, I don't really get it. This is why I laughed man. I don't know what has you responding like you are.
Or do you need a list of 'all the very real reasons' for people not having access to good healthcare?
'Not having the trust that they should in the science'?
Or that the vaccine is safe and effective?
I can explain what it is like to never see the same doctor twice for decades when having shitty insurance (my wife has been in and out of them enough for me to have a solid understanding of this).
And also how that leads to never really having a good idea of who to talk to about anything health related, and how that leads to not having trust because you are getting a ever revolving door of new doctors who are getting their time in until they can transfer to a 'good' area.
Or how if your job changes health insurance every couple years means that the places you can go are ever changing and how annoying that is to deal with anytime you need to get something looked at.
Shit I didn't see a dentist for 30 years.
And I understand how black doctors are better at looking out for the black patients than the non-black doctors that are in most black majority cities.
I just don't understand how you are so stuck in the mud about my saying that if black people have had the same level of healthcare (if you need something more specific than 'good') as white men have had (time to get very specific if you are going to just keep trolling me about this, because we all know women have been shafted for all time too), that they would have a far easier time trusting their doctors advice and not be as easily swayed by the death cult propagandists attacking them with the horrors of having a utterly unequal medical system.
I forgot where I was wife started talking to me. Bb.
Is this true? Not having access to good healthcare?
Or do you need a list of 'all the very real reasons' for people not having access to good healthcare?
'Not having the trust that they should in the science'?
Or that the vaccine is safe and effective?
I can explain what it is like to never see the same doctor twice for decades when having shitty insurance (my wife has been in and out of them enough for me to have a solid understanding of this).
And also how that leads to never really having a good idea of who to talk to about anything health related, and how that leads to not having trust because you are getting a ever revolving door of new doctors who are getting their time in until they can transfer to a 'good' area.
Or how if your job changes health insurance every couple years means that the places you can go are ever changing and how annoying that is to deal with anytime you need to get something looked at.
Outside of physicals in high school and college I had not really talked with a doctor up until a couple years ago when I got on my wife's insurance and she started making me get check ups and whatnot.According to work by the economists Marcella Alsan and Marianne Wanamaker, black men are less likely than white men to seek health care and more likely to die at younger ages. Their analysis suggests that one-third of the black-white gap in male life expectancy in the immediate aftermath of the study could be attributed to the legacy of distrust connected to the Tuskegee study.
From the same article:Bad Medicine: The Harm That Comes From Racism (Published 2020)
Racial bias still affects many aspects of health care.www.nytimes.com
Reinforcing the fact of racial bias in health care, a recent study found that care for black patients is better when they see black doctors. The study randomly assigned 1,300 African-Americans to black or nonblack primary care physicians. Those who saw black doctors received 34 percent more preventive services. One reason for this, supported by the study, is increased trust and communication.
So, there it is. Obviously, I didn't identify a single racist doctor from those passages. But there is plenty of evidence that racism and distrust due to racism is affecting healthcare outcomes for Black people.
Shit I didn't see a dentist for 30 years.
And I understand how black doctors are better at looking out for the black patients than the non-black doctors that are in most black majority cities.
I just don't understand how you are so stuck in the mud about my saying that if black people have had the same level of healthcare (if you need something more specific than 'good') as white men have had (time to get very specific if you are going to just keep trolling me about this, because we all know women have been shafted for all time too), that they would have a far easier time trusting their doctors advice and not be as easily swayed by the death cult propagandists attacking them with the horrors of having a utterly unequal medical system.
I forgot where I was wife started talking to me. Bb.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
I'm not trolling. I don't believe this statement (the whole statement) of yours:
"Not having access to good healthcare, for all the very real reasons, has caused the ability for today's minority communities to not have the trust that they should in the science behind the very safe and very effective free and available vaccine that would keep them safe."
I do not disagree that fewer people in the Black community have the same good access to healthcare that white people do. It is the second part that I question -- the lack of access to healthcare causes a lack of trust by Black people in medical science.
Can you produce some evidence for this connection or is it just an unfounded belief?