PadawanWarrior
Well-Known Member
Have you tried it? Is it dry, because it kinda looks like liquid? The bottles are confusing.
Salts and microbes
- Thread starter VincenzioVonHook
- Start date
Hollatchaboy
Well-Known Member
I have the Neptune's Harvest, but I've only used it once. It stinks. Lol
I've not tried the blue gold yet, and they're both liquid.
Samwell Seed Well
Well-Known Member
I see religiously here that you cannot fertilize an organic source using salt based fertilizer without killing microbes.
I can find more sources from one google search that says otherwise and I'm confused as hell now..
It seems to be a hard and fast rule here, but most of my mates with Chem and biology majors here reckon it's also a load of shit that fertilising with salts kills microbes.
What do you guys think? I'm lost now, as usually something so unanimous here would also apply to anywhere else, but speaking to a few Chem majors at uni and the horticulture majors they told me it was an absolute myth. Then I do a search, and the majority of the responses it threw at me were exactly the same argument the Chem majors had, that fertilising with salts doesn't kill microbes at all, it feeds them...the issue is usually over fertilisation.
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Salts Don't Kill Plants or Microbes
Fertilizer salts don't kill plants. People fear synthetic fertilizers but they add the same nutrients to soil as organic fertilizers. Find out the truth.www.gardenmyths.com
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View attachment 5072849View attachment 5072850
Do salt based nutrients kill bacteria, microbes and mycorrhizae?
Does Fertilizer Kill Soil Bacteria? Read most organic books or blogs and they will tell you that synthetic chemical fertilizers are killing the bacteria, fungi, and the microbes, in soil. Dr. Ingham and her Soil Food Web preach this same...www.420magazine.com
Don't burst the living soil bubble, Def don't tell them soil biology converts unusable forms of nutrients to available forms aka chelation...just like the bottled ones
Hollatchaboy
Well-Known Member
But if its already converted(salts), what are the microbes, insects, worms eating to convert to usable nutrient?
Samwell Seed Well
Well-Known Member
Yup..bro scicne
Samwell Seed Well
Well-Known Member
Organic feed( organic feeds nurture both the soil and the plant)... which in turn feeds biology and diversity... giving you the extra where your base chelated nutrients is lacking or used up
Hollatchaboy
Well-Known Member
I use humics for chelation though. Not knocking it, but my plants do just fine without the salts. I do agree though, in a pinch, salt based would work well, but I'd rather keep mine organic as possible. My no till can't be flushed if it gets a toxic buildup.
Samwell Seed Well
Well-Known Member
Not saying you need salts, my line of thinking is more in tune with not having soil diversity because someone is told using both is either wrong or bad is not good and back asswards as for as how plant growth is understood.
Hollatchaboy
Well-Known Member
Everybody has their way that works for them. Some may be better than others, but if you get a decent harvest out of it, in the end, that's all that really matters.
VincenzioVonHook
Well-Known Member
I think people will assume that I'm telling them to run salts in their organic medium when I mention this. I'm not. I just thought it was interesting that something so regularly stated here as an absolute is still so open for debate with actual bio-scientists.
I've literally heard people here throw the "congratulations you've just killed all your soil life" in many different wordings, after a single feed of salts here on RIU.
Life is a complicated process and seeing in absolutes is a killer.
I have been myself as I saw many people here pushing the "salts will immediately kill your soil life" and went with it without question until a conversation came up at uni the other day, and I couldn't find a single bio or Chem major who agreed with me on that matter, and all of them stated that synthetics at the right ratio and amount will feed, maintain and grow bacteria and fungi without detrimental effects, albeit Not as well as organic matter in a soil environment. I felt like such an uneducated dick lol.
I think my point is that it might not offer as much growth of biodiversity in your rhizosphere when adding supplementary synthetics, but it's not straight out killing it like most think.
First time I've been so wrong coming into a conversation with biochem majors lol.
I've literally heard people here throw the "congratulations you've just killed all your soil life" in many different wordings, after a single feed of salts here on RIU.
Life is a complicated process and seeing in absolutes is a killer.
I have been myself as I saw many people here pushing the "salts will immediately kill your soil life" and went with it without question until a conversation came up at uni the other day, and I couldn't find a single bio or Chem major who agreed with me on that matter, and all of them stated that synthetics at the right ratio and amount will feed, maintain and grow bacteria and fungi without detrimental effects, albeit Not as well as organic matter in a soil environment. I felt like such an uneducated dick lol.
I think my point is that it might not offer as much growth of biodiversity in your rhizosphere when adding supplementary synthetics, but it's not straight out killing it like most think.
First time I've been so wrong coming into a conversation with biochem majors lol.
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Hollatchaboy
Well-Known Member
I get ya man. I was the same. I believed it killed the microbes also. I looked it up by chance one day, and the concensus was that it didn't. I wasn't about to start a shit storm over it though. Lol
It can change the diversity of your bacteria however. It will definitely (temporarily) quickly increase the population of bacteria in your soil.
Nitrate ions all around them is like an all-you-can-eat buffet, and they gorge themselves on it as well as any carbon they can get their little paws on. Quick population rise - then fall once the carbon is gone. This may not be a great thing since we want more stable communities to stick around that will glue pieces of our soil together and increase caption exchange capacity at the same time. Plus it's better for the microbiology over the longterm to have a store of carbon in the soil rather than instantly releasing it as CO2 in the atmosphere.
Synthetic fertilizer application begins the destruction of soil biodiversity by suppressing the role of nitrogen-fixing bacteria and enhancing the role of everything that feeds on nitrogen. These feeders then amplify the decomposition of organic matter and humus. As organic matter decreases, the physical structure of soil changes. These changes lead to modulations in various associated soil physiological processes. https://doi.org/10.1016/B978-0-08-103017-2.00002-7
I guess we could all treat our "soil" as just some substrate to offer support to the roots while we feed it soluble salts every watering. But that's really hydroponics - not organic from any definition I could wrap my mind around.
Nitrate ions all around them is like an all-you-can-eat buffet, and they gorge themselves on it as well as any carbon they can get their little paws on. Quick population rise - then fall once the carbon is gone. This may not be a great thing since we want more stable communities to stick around that will glue pieces of our soil together and increase caption exchange capacity at the same time. Plus it's better for the microbiology over the longterm to have a store of carbon in the soil rather than instantly releasing it as CO2 in the atmosphere.
Synthetic fertilizer application begins the destruction of soil biodiversity by suppressing the role of nitrogen-fixing bacteria and enhancing the role of everything that feeds on nitrogen. These feeders then amplify the decomposition of organic matter and humus. As organic matter decreases, the physical structure of soil changes. These changes lead to modulations in various associated soil physiological processes. https://doi.org/10.1016/B978-0-08-103017-2.00002-7
I guess we could all treat our "soil" as just some substrate to offer support to the roots while we feed it soluble salts every watering. But that's really hydroponics - not organic from any definition I could wrap my mind around.
VincenzioVonHook
Well-Known Member
I see a lot of people with deficiencies waiting for a top dress to kick in or a tea to brew, and figured it might be handy for those who want an easy pick me up for their deficient plant without assuming they have killed the microbiology somehow from one feed.
I know I have been in that boat (being new to organics was rough first time around and dealt with a N and K deficiency in flower) and was anxiously waiting for a top dress to show results.
I know I have been in that boat (being new to organics was rough first time around and dealt with a N and K deficiency in flower) and was anxiously waiting for a top dress to show results.
Hollatchaboy
Well-Known Member
Well said.
Hollatchaboy
Well-Known Member
There's readily available organic nutes. Neptune's Harvest, eden blue gold, both are good choices.
VincenzioVonHook
Well-Known Member
Yep, I usually use liquid compost from a local nursery. I'm pretty sure it's something like 10:2:9 (not the best) and smells like a load of stale dicks wrapped in seaweed lol.
Hollatchaboy
Well-Known Member
Yep, sounds about right. Lol
PadawanWarrior
Well-Known Member
That's why I mentioned the dry soluble organics when you're late on top dressing. I was really lazy this round, so I've been trying out Organics Alive stuff. I just got some Corn Steep Powder, but haven't tried it yet. @Dreminen169 told me about the steep powder. Sounds like good stuff.
There's also stuff like Langbeinite and other stuff that is mostly soluble.
VincenzioVonHook
Well-Known Member
I'm really new to this, so I've only really used whole amendments like Neem, kelp, alfalfa, coconut and soy meal along with a bit of dolomite and ground phosphate. Most of those take a while to break down from what I can see.
I had a hard time wrapping my head around most locally available "organic" liquid feeds or dry soluble feed as I checked a bunch of "liquid composts" and kelp/fish emulsions that clearly had "organic: NO" on the labels and product description online in small print
The same at most nurseries and general stores. Sold as bagged organic potting mix, crack it opened and it's full of osmocote prills and Cleary has "organic: No" on the description on the back.
I come from general purpose potting mixes or Coco so I think I took organic a bit literally with the "whole" amendments.