Electric breaker panel question stab lok

[pahpah-cee]

I have a old FPE stab lok panel. I am unable to replace it right now. I’m aware of the risks, which is why I’m in need of a dedicated line to reduce the load.

Im wiring in a new 15 amp breaker. Originally I thought I am suppose to land the neutral and ground wire on the only bus bar available.



I can provide more pictures if requested. There is a junction box to the left from the original panel. This house is built in the 40’s.

When you look at the established breakers already installed you can see there is only 4 breakers and I’m not sure where their neutrals and ground run off too.

Can anyone point me in the right direction?

thanks!

 

[Billy the Mountain]

Consult a licensed electrician

Maybe you'll get a response from one here, but a growers forum is not the best place to seek such advise

 

[inth3shadowz]

If you have to ask, you probably should hire a professional. Just my rule of thumb lol

 

[rkymtnman]

all the corrosion/rust on that panel, i'd replace that ASAP

 

[Friendly_Grower]

OMG! What War was that in?
People say YouTube is not a goodly source but it it is. Goodly in that I gleaned an education on the basics of wiring a sub-panel.
Also I like DIYChatroom.com I also ordered a wiring guide book ( the Home Owner type of book ) and can access the NEC 2020 online.

The very first thing is that the Electric Box in the picture is not to be used! Not in my opinion. Look at the corrosion! I bet all the lugs are not tight ( torqued to the right inch-pounds )
It looks like it has an Earth Ground and a connection to the Neutral feed. Can you verify that it has a metal rod going into the ground? If that is so then that is a real issue the Electric Supply company needs to come out and look at.
Some things can be grandfathered when upgrading and some things cannot. It may be illegal to add any more breakers to that for example. Just thinking out loud here.

So this is most likely pre-romex which isn't anything I know about. If ithe wires run without a raceway and are not Romex or other shielded wire then it is necessary to replace and pull new wire. At least that is what I think. The four circuits could be simply attached to new breakers in a new box but that is National Electric Code stuff. It is a can of worms that is for sure and Cheap it is not to bring up to code. Code is what keep fires from happening in my opinion.

So yes the best advice is hire a Pro to replace the box and breakers. Once you have that done then planning new loads can be simple.
You have four 120 v circuits but it looks confusing. Is there another box? Is power coming from some other place? Is this a sub panel? Why do some wires look like they don't attach in this box?
I assume it isn't a Sub-Panel by the looks of the feeder line wire size but it is 1930-40

Yep I wouldn't trust that. Nope. It's rusty and pure junk.
Need to check with your local authorities for your County and see what version of the National Electric Code they require.
For example where I'm at they allow NEC 2000 code but I am doing ALL my work to the NEC 2020.
I wired my Dryer and Washer to the modern code when I put those outlets in.
My 50 Amp Sub-Panel has the right breakers and will be wired with the NEC 2020.

Electricians will be required to change that box. You will have to get the electric company involved because they have to disconnect you from service to let the work be done.

It's a major thing but it looks like it's on you.
I have a fixer-upper and to get a proper shared neutral breaker it cost me $200 because there are NONE available for like four months.
I could only get it from scalpers on EBay. Should have run no more than $90 however, this house now has that horrible shared neutral circuit on a proper breaker. The crap they did to that. Two hots and one neutral. That is allowed for some things like in a kitchen for example but it needs a breaker that both hots and the neutral are wired to. There is a pigtail to tie into the Neutral Bus from a shared neutral breaker. Someone though it was okay to replace one 20 amp breaker with a 30 amp breaker and add a second feeder wire off of one breaker to run a Washing Machine. Well two 20 amp hots and a shared neutral is one thing especially when not using a breaker that can tell if something is wrong on either line. But to simply pull ten more amps on wire rated for 20 amps on top of not having a proper breaker for a shared neutral circuit? Why that is damn crazy!

You see there are a thousand and one things Electricians know that take some work for DIY'ers to figure out.

 

[hotrodharley]

Word of caution here. Consult an electrician. That person can bring this up to code. Or not. This is very important for safety and for resale value.

 

[Herb & Suds]

I wouldn’t begin to give advice on that mess
Wait until you have enough money to make upgrades and grow outdoors till you do

 

[1212ham]

Everything the others have posted.

Federal Pacific Electric Stab-Lok panels are hazardous

The most notorious electric panel is the Federal Pacific Electric Stab-Lok panel,

So why don’t we recommend having an electrician evaluate the panel? There’s no point.

These breaker panels have high failure rates linked to thousands of house fires; thus, they are considered defective and unsafe by most inspectors and electricians.

FPE stab lok panel at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

 

[CWF]

Yikes. Eject, eject, eject!

I would replace that panel asap. I do my own work, but I have many many years experience and training. Even then, I know a pro with full tools and van, etc, and he is fast af and does neat work. He would get the job.

 

[Dreaming1]

People died to have safety codes. Literally. That pic is not enough info to know what is going on. A person can do this work on their own, but they need to understand what they are doing. You don't, so don't try it on your own. Faulty electrical stuff has ended many grows and has gotten illegal growers caught. Besides the cost to lives and property.

 

[Friendly_Grower]

It's all crazy expensive too with inflation and supply issues they say.
Doing it right the first time will cost less even if it costs a lot.

As it is said "Safety First."

 

[pahpah-cee]

Okay okay you all are right. I’m going to do everything but the final wiring in the breaker panel. I’m hoping I can find an electrician that will be okay with me doing 90% of the work to save money.

I’ve already had an electrician look over the stupid FPE panel. There isn’t anything that screams dangerous. Yes it is old. Yes it could be cleaned up. The main danger of FPE panels is that if you over load the circuit the breaker has a high failure rate of tripping. So adding a new circuit is with the intention of lowering my failure rate.

 

[Friendly_Grower]

Okay okay you all are right. I’m going to do everything but the final wiring in the breaker panel. I’m hoping I can find an electrician that will be okay with me doing 90% of the work to save money.

I’ve already had an electrician look over the stupid FPE panel. There isn’t anything that screams dangerous. Yes it is old. Yes it could be cleaned up. The main danger of FPE panels is that if you over load the circuit the breaker has a high failure rate of tripping. So adding a new circuit is with the intention of lowering my failure rate.

Well, don't tell the guy you are doing work yourself before he does his. Why rub salt into a low paycheck wound?
I suggest Electric box first and then do your wiring when they go away..
Just one thing to say here. Check and Be sure you *CAN* do your own work.
I read a thread with a Guy that did all the wiring himself in New York and then called out the inspector to certify.
If I remember that thread it was the worst!
Since he had not permitted and had not hired a qualified Electrician the whole thing had to come out!
Never mind that the inspector said he had done everything right! Nope it had to come out or he would have had his house condemned.

So just a heads up! Check and see if you *CAN* do it yourself and perhaps you won't even need an inspection and a sign-off on the work.

I found out I can do the work and I don't need an inspection. It's a very rural and poor area. They don't bust yer-nuts around here.

 

[CWF]

..snip
I read a thread with a Guy that did all the wiring himself in New York and then called out the inspector to certify.
If I remember that thread it was the worst! Since he had not permitted and had not hired a qualified Electrician the whole thing had to come out!
Never mind that the inspector said he had done everything right! Nope it had to come out or he would have had his house condemned.

Hmm. My credo is never invite "the man" into your life. Whomever that was. A properly done mod/improvement is never an issue, even at resale. Do it right. Sleep tight.

 

[Friendly_Grower]

Hmm. My credo is never invite "the man" into your life. Whomever that was. A properly done mod/improvement is never an issue, even at resale. Do it right. Sleep tight.

I feel this one.
I have been open and honest with my insurance people. I can do my own work. Yet they just told me they are jacking up my premium by $200 a year on account of fire hazard.
Needless to say I'm shopping for new insurance even if it costs the same.

You are right never invite Po Po. Once we become a "Case File" it's mechanical. No one cares in the Machine.
On the other hand, doing things yourself means you will know it's done right or not.

So there Brother/Sister in wiring your own! Just take the time to read! Check with no less than two sources on what you do.

I hope to post pictures here of my Summer Build out. I have talked myself into running hot and cold water to the Lung Room also so I can stop running through the house two gallons at a time.

 

[Friendly_Grower]

Okay okay you all are right. I’m going to do everything but the final wiring in the breaker panel. I’m hoping I can find an electrician that will be okay with me doing 90% of the work to save money.

I’ve already had an electrician look over the stupid FPE panel. There isn’t anything that screams dangerous. Yes it is old. Yes it could be cleaned up. The main danger of FPE panels is that if you over load the circuit the breaker has a high failure rate of tripping. So adding a new circuit is with the intention of lowering my failure rate.

I wish you the best.
I hope my posts say "I feel your pain."
There are four plants flowering in the make-shift grow room now that I'll be building out this Summer which includes running a 50 Amp sub-panel and running 240 v to the light controllers and I think those rain guard type outlets for the 120 v. I need to research that but I need my grow room as idiot proof as possible. I am on the old side and hope to get older.

When you are done I would like to see pictures if you are so inclined. It's something that interests me.
.

 

[ISK]

Your existing electrical work does not meet FEC (USA) or CSA (Canada) electrical standards (I see several infractions and some real scary shit).

If you personally conduct any modifications, you are legally responsible.

If that house burns downs 5 years from now and the investigator determines the fire was caused the faulty wiring that you implemented, you will be financially/legally responsible.

That said....your panel is old but is fundamentally the same as a modern panel.

You have two large feeds (#3 gauge) on the top which bring in the power and one on the bottom as your return feed.

Your coloured wire (typically red) connects to the fuse breaker, and the white wire goes on the bottom return strip.

But I see you do not have a ground terminal, so the bare wire (which does not have a plastic covering) should terminate on a ground strip. I would not run a grow light that didn't have the appropriate "third prong" plug-in connector properly wired. (your current receptacles are likely only 2 prong plug-ins...or the third prong is not connected as required).

The cost to upgrade this up to code will be very expensive...I recommend you consult with a certified master electrician who will know exactly what should be done to meet the code.

The basic steps to upgrade the entire panel to FEC/CSA electrical code:

1) pull the meter box to kill the power to the panel (some old places do have a throw switch, but that's uncommon)
2) remove all wires from panel, then replace panel and breakers with modern versions.
3) insert wires into panel using the appropriate fittings and terminate appropriately.
4) all wires should be upgrade to include a ground wire, but they may let you get away without upgrading the existing cables

Bottom line.....if you do this yourself, get a permit then your work will be inspected by a professional, which will legally cover you if he/she signs off on the electrical work....without the permit/inspection, you are legally responsible for any/all mishaps.

 

[Friendly_Grower]

@ISK That was a good post. Thanks!

It looked to me that there is also a Grounding rod thing at the bottom. Is that allowed these days? I'm always learning but what I have read makes me think that the return path should be back at the source of service not at the panel. So, it's a good question to ask.

 

[pahpah-cee]

I’ve reached out to a local electrician who is willing to look it over via pictures and explain things over the phone. He will charge me if he comes out. So I’m going to see how far I can get it before I have him come out

Thank you ISK and friendly grower for your insight. Here is more pictures to get a better understanding. P.s. I also have the dead door- just not installed at the moment.

Is this not grounding to my water pipes? Would I land it to this somehow?


Im digging my trenches deeper. The electrician said at minimum 18” deep with schedule 40 pipe. I was going to use UL liquid tight conduit originally. this is actually cheaper and feels more safe.

 

[hotrodharley]

Okay okay you all are right. I’m going to do everything but the final wiring in the breaker panel. I’m hoping I can find an electrician that will be okay with me doing 90% of the work to save money.

I’ve already had an electrician look over the stupid FPE panel. There isn’t anything that screams dangerous. Yes it is old. Yes it could be cleaned up. The main danger of FPE panels is that if you over load the circuit the breaker has a high failure rate of tripping. So adding a new circuit is with the intention of lowering my failure rate.

Look on Craigslist for your electrician. Or Angie’s List. Find a solo act working out of his truck. I know more than a few working this way and they’re all good with the customer doing shit like running wire (but not connecting anything). Further none I know say anything about their customers. My best buddy here is an electrician who’s wired all kinds of places legally licensed and he never talks about anything he’s seen or done there. Poor style to talk about other customers.