Does freewill exist?

[Bagginski]

Who the Hell knows what's going ...I'm thinking since we are unable to "will" things , there can be no free will ......to will something much different than making choices.

Have you applied your will toward learning HOW to apply your will?
(no, it’s NOT a trick question)

Do you consider the choices you make worth making? Is constraint the only reason you make them?

 

[Dreaming1]

“Who asks this question?”

Probably the best question. Gets directly into the juicy center of it all.

Reality speaks: we have to piss…but it’s free will that takes into the bathroom (or to the nearest tree) instead of pissing ourselves while watching TV in the den.

Awareness of self and others - the ability to register and decode reality in real-time - presents us with choices as circumstances and conditions change. This is what gives us free will: we can react impulsively/compulsively, we can respond spontaneously, we can choose a response. We can choose an action, we can choose not to act.

Or, we can just sit there and piss ourselves.

These are real good points. The choosing not to act is the part that leads me towards free will having. The ignoring the options presented to choose from and saying "no thank you." Not playing the part. Unless, that is your particular personality traits. Which seems to be my role.

I like this: yes, a wave of infinite potential freedom of action, crystallized into a form determined by conditions & circumstances…where it *feels* less free because of the restraints imposed by the crystallized form; and having precipitated from he needs of the moment, the measurement reads “I felt like I had no choice but to….”

Supporting casts…if there are people in your life who truly trust you, spend some of your free will on *keeping* their trust…and if there are people in your life YOU truly trust, devote some free will to making sure you play fair with them.

I thought it was my best work as of late. At least it brings the argument into the present mode of science thought. The collapsing wave potentials into a particle of actuality.
I have only very close friends. I cultivate love and respect inside that garden. Our relationships with the people we want in our lives is the most important aspect of our making choices.

Have you applied your will toward learning HOW to apply your will?
(no, it’s NOT a trick question)

Do you consider the choices you make worth making? Is constraint the only reason you make them?

Not to me, but really applies to us all. Maybe? I have explored different mind/body connecting things. Physical stuff, meditation, psychedelics, depravity of mind and body too.
I do feel they are worth making for some. But, the majority seem inconsequential. Now, my choices that seem to not affect me may have drastic effects elsewhere on someone else's life. Like, I pour out chemical waste in a stream and it kills animals in the water, some town drinks it and develops cancers or shit that mess up people and their families. So, I am aware that I am not aware of the entire connectedness. And that my decisions effect others.
Idk if constraints are the only reason we make decisions. Could be. That's one of the things I wonder.
Thank you. These are solid points. You are not a person going through the internet asshole first.

 

[Dreaming1]

I like this: yes, a wave of infinite potential freedom of action, crystallized into a form determined by conditions & circumstances…where it *feels* less free because of the restraints imposed by the crystallized form; and having precipitated from he needs of the moment, the measurement reads “I felt like I had no choice but to….”
.

Smoked some serious herb, drank some tea,and thought about this more. It could still be only our perception of available possibilities. This could all still be driven by an outside force to an inevitable conclusion with the other possible options never actually having any chance of occurring.
If I am driven by biology and not mind, then it would make sense that I would be compelled to act in certain ways, but my mind would think I act in accordance or not with my cultural indoctrination. And the cultural devices would be there to reinforce the natural flow of doing what the driving force wanted.

 

[Bagginski]

Probably the best question. Gets directly into the juicy center of it all.

High praise…thank you!

Have you applied your will toward learning HOW to apply your will?
(no, it’s NOT a trick question)

Do you consider the choices you make worth making? Is constraint the only reason you make them?

Not to me, but really applies to us all. Maybe? I have explored different mind/body connecting things. Physical stuff, meditation, psychedelics, depravity of mind and body too.

I do feel they are worth making for some. But, the majority seem inconsequential. Now, my choices that seem to not affect me may have drastic effects elsewhere on someone else's life. Like, I pour out chemical waste in a stream and it kills animals in the water, some town drinks it and develops cancers or shit that mess up people and their families. So, I am aware that I am not aware of the entire connectedness. And that my decisions effect others.
Idk if constraints are the only reason we make decisions. Could be. That's one of the things I wonder.
Thank you. These are solid points. You are not a person going through the internet asshole first.

Those questions were in response to another poster, specifically, but I appreciate you considering them.

The point about constraints has to do with the fact that there are *ALWAYS* conditions and considerations that present choices from a finite set, not from the godlike power of infinite *ability*.

Consider a flood: one could do anything in response, but there are limits imposed by reality. One can choose to do nothing and drown; choose to hang on for dear life…and drown (or not drown); choose to climb out of danger and watch others die; choose to save who you can, with death and survival hanging on subsequent choices; choose to try and make to town & see if Waffle House is open; choose to die, screaming how unfair it is.

Free will - in theory and practice - is indelibly bound to available choices (as we can’t (mostly) change conditions & circumstance by simply wanting to change them). Therefore, choice is ALWAYS circumscribed by reality, and it can feel to us humans as if we have no (meaningful) choice when faced w/ exigent/emergent situations: implying that we are not free, or that we want choices/actions that simply are not functionally available to us under the circumstances.

Consequently, the sense of constraint may make us feel forced against our will…and yet, will drives *action* - which is what couples it to *choice*, so…”free will” is in essence simply the freedom to choose what action(s) to take, if any. “Submit or die” is like the worst possible case…yet the choice is plain, and definite…no matter how undesirable, compared to the infinite wave of potential possibilities.

This is all the result of my own 50 years of struggle and contemplation (and parenting) - not from a book or a teacher…yet it seems to hold up durably.

Thanks so much for letting me chime in on your thread!.

 

[StonedGardener]

There is or there is not. I hear you free willers. I hear the free willless. My claim is We do not have free will. An easy exit here is that I Can't prove a negative. I Cant prove we don't have free will. That doesn't prove we have it though either.
I can see that most lives are defined by timeline, geography,and socioeconomic class. I can see in my personal life a lot of synchronicities and some serendipity. The events that shaped me are more magnetic than intellectual. People I have known that were in the right place at the right time have helped me be where I am more than any choices I ever made. Without this supporting cast, I could never have had the choices that were availed to me at key moments. I merely reacted in predictable ways to choices presented. But, my life shaped my personality and that is what made the choices predictable for me at the times I made a choice. An earlier timeline version of me could not have chosen the choices I made. It was ethically taboo. I would have been too scared. I could not have chosen what I was able to as a later mind. So as don't Bogart states it seems to be conditional if it exists. Maybe it is relative.
A quantum-schröedingers free will. You have it as a wave, but not as a particle. Or perhaps, you have it until you try to measure it.
And I would like to say that a lot of the supporting cast of my life have been women. Take some time and thank the supporting cast in your own lives. Free or not, appreciate those who love you.

" A quantum-Schrodinger's free will " ? That's a new one .............Schrodinger's Equation ......okay.....it " will " make predictions on quantum mechanical systems.
Ya lost me in this morass. Also, I always thought everything is relative. You carry on, you have a real passion for this topic ( must be you're hard-wired for this ). Great volleying with a deep-roller like you but the semantics on this forum give me a migraine.

 

[Rob Roy]

Now we get to decide if we have free will? Awesome. Talking in circles. I decided to have/not have free will. What does that even mean? Word salad.
We are either in control or we are not. It seems we are not. Choice choosers? Yes. Deciding on the choices available to us? No.
So what is free will if you don't set up the initial conditions? Reaction.
We are in this life like bacteria in its guts. We are not riding this life like some cowboy. It is riding us if anything.

Agreed, we are in control of many of our choices, but not always in control of the outcomes.

I made the free will choice not to be a cowboy. Not into the cowboy hat and boots thing.

 

[hillbill]

Me in a cowboy hat is so fucking funny, I’d do better with one of those stove pipe things. I do better in my grandfather’s black wool derby.

 

[hillbill]

Starched and pressed jeans were the real deal killer.

 

[Dreaming1]

High praise…thank you!



Those questions were in response to another poster, specifically, but I appreciate you considering them.

The point about constraints has to do with the fact that there are *ALWAYS* conditions and considerations that present choices from a finite set, not from the godlike power of infinite *ability*.

Consider a flood: one could do anything in response, but there are limits imposed by reality. One can choose to do nothing and drown; choose to hang on for dear life…and drown (or not drown); choose to climb out of danger and watch others die; choose to save who you can, with death and survival hanging on subsequent choices; choose to try and make to town & see if Waffle House is open; choose to die, screaming how unfair it is.

Free will - in theory and practice - is indelibly bound to available choices (as we can’t (mostly) change conditions & circumstance by simply wanting to change them). Therefore, choice is ALWAYS circumscribed by reality, and it can feel to us humans as if we have no (meaningful) choice when faced w/ exigent/emergent situations: implying that we are not free, or that we want choices/actions that simply are not functionally available to us under the circumstances.

Consequently, the sense of constraint may make us feel forced against our will…and yet, will drives *action* - which is what couples it to *choice*, so…”free will” is in essence simply the freedom to choose what action(s) to take, if any. “Submit or die” is like the worst possible case…yet the choice is plain, and definite…no matter how undesirable, compared to the infinite wave of potential possibilities.

This is all the result of my own 50 years of struggle and contemplation (and parenting) - not from a book or a teacher…yet it seems to hold up durably.

Thanks so much for letting me chime in on your thread!.

Im in it to find Truth. It could be beyond my comprehension.
I do agree with what you say, and appreciate the verbosity of it. It helps solidify the idea you're sharing. But, I still see room for the other side even all the way to predestination. I am lazy. But, in times of crisis or need, I am driven to act. Even against my own self preservation. So, I see the constraints of reality making us feel without free will. I am just not able to see how it isn't pre set up through the initial conditions of the choices available. And if the initial conditions are set up at random, it makes the choices seem arbitrary.
Free will as the freedom to choose between available actions is how I would like to define it. Idk how any of us can say for certain what is going on. I would be surprised by the big reveal ending no matter what the "Reality" outcome was.
I do not know.
I also like to say "where there is a will, there is a way." I understand that if one is willing to do unconventional actions, they can accomplish extraordinary acts. If there is a system, there is a way to hack it. So, I proceed through life as if I have free will. But, I can still see that I may just be a program from that vantage point. I just look at ideas and consider them.
We are all individuals doing our own thing and living separate lives. But, back up a little and we disappear into careers, clubs, classes, races, genders. Back up even more and we are all just humans doing the human thing. Like bacteria. They seem to move along and do what they want too.
Thank you for chiming in. Thanks to the OP. The more, the merrier. We are all here until we are not.

" A quantum-Schrodinger's free will " ? That's a new one .............Schrodinger's Equation ......okay.....it " will " make predictions on quantum mechanical systems.
Ya lost me in this morass. Also, I always thought everything is relative. You carry on, you have a real passion for this topic ( must be you're hard-wired for this ). Great volleying with a deep-roller like you but the semantics on this forum give me a migraine.

Im spitballing with that. Thanks for being! I do enjoy the mysteries of living. Language is a poor tool for communicating. But, we haven't improved on it. The words meanings changing through vernacular over time isn't helping. And technical definitions not always being a literal interpretation of the meaning is confusing too.
Even after we are done with it, some others will have our conversation again. Maybe then there will be some new points to make, or some possible measurement to take, or a new understanding of our existence.
I know nothing.

 

[Dreaming1]

Agreed, we are in control of many of our choices, but not always in control of the outcomes.

I made the free will choice not to be a cowboy. Not into the cowboy hat and boots thing.

I look like whatever costume I apply. Birthday suit to business suit. I live the character. I am that and I project that. The personal identity is mostly a mask of a social nature.

 

[StonedGardener]

Agreed, we are in control of many of our choices, but not always in control of the outcomes.

I made the free will choice not to be a cowboy. Not into the cowboy hat and boots thing.

You made the " free will choice ", sounds like we have options .What other types of choices are there besides this one ? I just made the " regular" choice not to be a cowboy( that cow-punching isn't for me). I'm just ignorant , " thick as a brick " sometimes.
What you said..." but not always in control of the outcomes " is what always excited me when I " went out on the town"......walk out the front door with cash In the wallet just wondering what the f will happen that night......no regiment.....the crazier ( in a good way) the better............get home 3 in the afternoon........wake up laying on section of handicap chairs and missing fliight.......hooked up unknowingly with a real siren , girlfriend of biggest drug dealer in area......thrown in jail for a night ........laugh ,and talk with people/person till sunrise..... and on and on. Great memories, great antidotes. Why is it the f'd-up situations we experience ( and come out unscathed) are the funniest ? Earthing humor I think. I'm toasted...I'm gonna shut up. Must be I'm hard wired to raise Hell

 

[PadawanWarrior]

There is no Freewill. I'm gonna go smoke a bowl. It was meant to be,

 

[Don't Bogart]

I may have been. No telling. If the program says to interact, I would interact. If the program says choose to interact with certain topics and not others, I would comply within those constraints. And I would never question my actions. If the program was to feel feelings about something, I would surely feel something about it when that thing came along.

This program says send me your check book.

 

[DrBuzzFarmer]

Free will is an illusion, unless one learns to piece the veil between Consciousness and Supraconsciousness.
Consciousness exists on the other side of the subject/object split, choosing your reality from the Field of Possibility.
The Hindus had it right.

 

[StonedGardener]

This program says send me your check book.

Am I in Crazytown.........took a wrong turn, didn't I. However , my program directed me here. I'm forwarding my check book , overnight mail .

 

[Nixs]

The Hindus had it right.

They worship cows

 

[Dreaming1]

"The problem with you, is the problem with me. Got two good eyes, and still don't see." Robert Hunter

You can't get there from here.

 

[hillbill]

Hindu, Muslim, Christian. Fundamentalists are a danger to civil society, especially in th US.

 

[Don't Bogart]

I'm forwarding my check book , overnight mail .

Wow the background of your checks....Is that New Mexico??

 

[Don't Bogart]

They worship cows

Every religion hits a snag.