Gun control is coming

xtsho

Well-Known Member
Measure 114 was well-intentioned, but ill-conceived

I doubt that it will pass constitutional muster as is
It's DOA. The magazine restriction the anti-gun people always toss into these measures is pretty naive. It takes a few seconds to change out a magazine. There isn't any difference between two 20 round magazines and four 10 round magazines but the people that are anti-gun don't know anything about firearms.

Lowering the magazine capacity doesn't decrease the amount of ammo a perp can have. It just makes current owners unable to use magazines they currently have which is where the "cause an irreparable harm to gun owners" argument comes in. They now have magazines they can no longer use which cost them money that they will not be able to recover. Causing them financial harm.

These measures are always written by people with absolutely no actual firearms experience which is why they always fail.

I'm all for tighter firearm restrictions but as long as these people that have no hands on knowledge of firearms are the ones trying to enact cammon sense firearm legislation it is doomed to fail.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
It's DOA. The magazine restriction the anti-gun people always toss into these measures is pretty naive. It takes a few seconds to change out a magazine. There isn't any difference between two 20 round magazines and four 10 round magazines but the people that are anti-gun don't know anything about firearms.

Lowering the magazine capacity doesn't decrease the amount of ammo a perp can have. It just makes current owners unable to use magazines they currently have which is where the "cause an irreparable harm to gun owners" argument comes in. They now have magazines they can no longer use which cost them money that they will not be able to recover. Causing them financial harm.

These measures are always written by people with absolutely no actual firearms experience which is why they always fail.

I'm all for tighter firearm restrictions but as long as these people that have no hands on knowledge of firearms are the ones trying to enact cammon sense firearm legislation it is doomed to fail.
You've said that before You were wrong then and still are.

Not surprised.

You are wrong. Wrong about the intent of restricting capacity of cartridges, wrong about the people who wrote the bill, wrong about the common sense of this measure and wrong about this bill affecting your right to own a gun for self defense.

Fact: The bill is still in limbo,

Headline from Feb 6:

Ballot Measure 114′s provisions remain blocked in their entirety pending a lower court hearing on the measure’s constitutionality.

We are just going through the process, beginning with a rube circuit court Judge who made a ruling that made no sense. He still hasn't made a final ruling. No surprise there, Republicans use the delaying tactic when they know they are likely to lose in the higher courts. So, you were wrong before and wrong now. You'll be wrong again. You most often are.

If we lose in the Supreme Court, with the ruling in hand, we'll go back and shape the measure so that the next time we win at the ballot box, we will be more likely to prevail. This is about saving lives, not the cowardly concerns of gun nuts. But we are yet to have our day in court, so unbunch your panties, change your Depends and try not to panic while we go through the process.

The thing is, gun nuts have stopped using reason on this issue. They now just use legalistic arguments. The majority want to see this kind of measure passed and you have no valid reason why not, just, the 2A. Eventually we will prevail even if we have to pass a constitutional amendment. By the time we manage that, tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands will die on your altar of gun worship. I don't know why you don't care. But the gun lobby and their supporters are losing ground. Eventually we will put an end to their lunacy and evil industry.
 

Drop That Sound

Well-Known Member
High capacity mags make a big difference in how well a bump stock works though. With a 50 rnd drum mag, you can rapid fire way, way longer..
 

xtsho

Well-Known Member
You've said that before You were wrong then and still are.

Not surprised.

You are wrong. Wrong about the intent of restricting capacity of cartridges, wrong about the people who wrote the bill, wrong about the common sense of this measure and wrong about this bill affecting your right to own a gun for self defense.

Fact: The bill is still in limbo,

Headline from Feb 6:

Ballot Measure 114′s provisions remain blocked in their entirety pending a lower court hearing on the measure’s constitutionality.

We are just going through the process, beginning with a rube circuit court Judge who made a ruling that made no sense. He still hasn't made a final ruling. No surprise there, Republicans use the delaying tactic when they know they are likely to lose in the higher courts. So, you were wrong before and wrong now. You'll be wrong again. You most often are.

If we lose in the Supreme Court, with the ruling in hand, we'll go back and shape the measure so that the next time we win at the ballot box, we will be more likely to prevail. This is about saving lives, not the cowardly concerns of gun nuts. But we are yet to have our day in court, so unbunch your panties, change your Depends and try not to panic while we go through the process.

The thing is, gun nuts have stopped using reason on this issue. They now just use legalistic arguments. The majority want to see this kind of measure passed and you have no valid reason why not, just, the 2A. Eventually we will prevail even if we have to pass a constitutional amendment. By the time we manage that, tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands will die on your altar of gun worship. I don't know why you don't care. But the gun lobby and their supporters are losing ground. Eventually we will put an end to their lunacy and evil industry.
I'm not wrong. And even if I am wrong on this specific topic I've been right more than not.

Facts
 

CANON_Grow

Well-Known Member
I have no problem with 'baiting' cops. You can learn a lot by tossing someone a rope and seeing what they decide to do with it. I think pretending there's just "a few bad apples" is absurd, but even so, the saying goes: "spoil the bunch." The continuing lack of serious accountability lets those apples remain in place to just keep spreading their corruption. I think civilian review boards with real teeth would be a good start, but police unions would fight that every step of the way, as I suspect they do with any kind of reform measures. I think the whole concept of law enforcement is well and truly fucked in this country. The wrong kinds of people are being hired and given the wrong kinds of training.

I'm just not someone who buys into this whole, "they have such a dangerous job" mentality. Either way, their safety shouldn't trump my rights.

You certainly can, we agree on that.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Measure 114 was well-intentioned, but ill-conceived

I doubt that it will pass constitutional muster as is
It's just stuck in a rube judge's court, doesn't mean much. Did you see what his initial ruling said? lulz. It was as if he hadn't found anybody to sound out the words for him and just said what he was told to say.

I'm looking forward to seeing what an informed court says.
 

natureboygrower

Well-Known Member
White men. I think calling them mayo would have the whiff of racism if white men weren't given so much privilege. As it is, the power dynamic makes that (calling a white man, especially a white cop, "mayo") not a racist slur.
I think her post would have held more impact had she just said White people. The message gets a bit lost using words like she chose.

But thank goodness it's not racist because you say so.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
There has been some misinformation posted about Oregon Measure 114. It's like groundhog day. This has all been gone over before, in one case, it's been gone over with the same person who just recently posted disinformation about the measure. So, Phil has seen his shadow and I'm here to go over it all over again.

First, what is the measure? From the following: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5ab5336270e802ff969f9c0f/t/635eac91f0e2db5da5ae2893/1667148945466/Measure+114+FAQ-+WEB.pdf

What will Measure 114 do?
Measure 114 will save lives and reduce gun violence by closing a dangerous loophole and implementing simple and effective safety measures. Specifically, Measure 114 will:

Require a permit to purchase a firearm.
Require a background check on all gun purchases, the measure closes a loophole that previously has allowed people with prior convictions or restraining orders to purchase a gun.
Require fingerprinting for verification purposes.
Require safety training to ensure responsible use and storage.
Limit the sale of high-capacity magazines.

It is not a ban on "assault" rifles or any other gun that is currently legal for civilian ownership in OR or the US. It does not ban ownership of high capacity magazines or a person from using their gun with their high capacity magazine for self defense. It does not ban the sale of guns. It does not ban the ownership of guns for self defense or other purposes.

Nine other states have permit to purchase laws similar to Measure 114 and eight states have bans on high capacity ammunition magazines. These measures have been tested in courts and found to be legal under US constitution and their own state's constitution.

Johns Hopkins researchers used records from states that taken before and after these measures into law or before and after these measures were repealed. The records show firearm purchaser licensing laws were associated with 11 percent reduction in firearm homicides in urban counties from 1984-2015, They also show 56 percent lower rates of fatal mass shooting incidents, and 67 percent fewer mass shooting victims. Firearm purchaser licensing laws are also associated with significantly lower rates of guns being diverted for criminal use shortly after retail sale.

Hence the reason for introducing the permit before purchase requirement in Measure 114

Everytown Research compiled data about mass shootings between 2009-2020. In the opening statement of that report, they make this point: The United States is not the only country with mental illness, domestic violence, or hate-fueled ideologies, but our gun homicide rate is 26 times higher than other high-income countries. So, yeah, some mass shootings have been by people we would deem mentally ill but other countries have mentally ill people too. Why is the US different?

Collating data taken from each mass shooting event over the 12 year period, 247 mass shootings in all, they found the following trends:

Mass shooting events were more likely perpetrated by someone who was legally prohibited from possessing a firearm; more likely perpetrated by someone who displayed prior warning signs; intermingled with acts of domestic violence; and far deadlier when they involve assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. While nearly every assault weapon used in a mass shooting over this period included a high-capacity magazine, an additional 20 mass shootings involved the use of high-capacity magazines with other guns. Laws restricting magazine size were by far the strongest predictor of a state’s rate of mass shootings.

Another study estimated that mass shooting deaths were 70 percent less likely to occur when the federal prohibition on assault weapons and high-capacity magazines was in effect.

Hence the reasons for a more robust background check and ban on the sale of high capacity magazines. In Measure 114

Regarding constitutionality of Measure 114. As said earlier, 8 other states have enacted measures similar to the ones contained in Measure 114. All have passed court challenges and found they do not infringe on rights given in the second amendment of the US constitution. What remains is whether or not Measure 114 meets legal challenges under the state's constitution. A Harney County Circuit Court judge has made a preliminary ruling saying Measure 114 would prohibit owning a firearms and therefore infringes on the Oregon State's constitution. The lower court judge made his preliminary ruling in early December and has yet to issue his final ruling. Until he does, the State Supreme Court has ruled to keep the lower court judge's ruling in place.

The State of Oregon disagrees and is defending the measure. For legal beagles who say the measure is unconstitutional, here the state's rebuttal:


A very high level summary of the state's defense: The attorney general’s office argues that the current gun owners who have filed a lawsuit challenging the measure won’t be harmed if the measure becomes law. “Plaintiffs can continue to keep and bear the arms they currently possess, which is enough to protect their Second Amendment rights for the pendency of this litigation,” wrote Brian Simmonds Marshall, a senior assistant attorney general.
 
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