Yesterday's Mass Shooting.

cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Fogdog said:
Your reason is exactly why I contemplated getting a gun. To protect myself from other gun owners. It's an emotional decision, not a rational one (see below). It also propagates the cycle of gun violence.

From a practical POV, It's very rare that a gun owner will successfully use their gun in self defense.

About 80 million people own a gun. In 2018, guns were successfully used in self defense 70,000 times or 0.0875% of gun owners used a gun in self defense. It's a tiny number. To put it in perspective, one can expect to flip a fair coin ten times and get heads every time 0.098% of the time.

For that, I should go through all the hassle of buying, maintaining, securing, practicing, finding the right holster, etc., all the while introducing other rare though larger risks that go along with it? It's your choice to make and maybe you live in an area that is much less safe that I do. But for me, no thanks.
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Imo a better metric is defensive uses divided by accidental or negligent gunshot injuries/deaths. Iirc that ratio is about one in fifteen.

Still compelling statistics. I have no interest in carrying a gun. It’s not only a huge hassle, but the gun is more likely to get me in trouble or even be used against me or mine. It’s not like I have a spec-ops background.

I have a single reasonable defense scenario: I’m in bed, and I hear an unexpected entry.

Even then, the chances are overwhelmingly that it’s a neighbor on a mission of concern, or some dumb kid, or even an offspring seeking unannounced asylum from an abusive partner.

I certainly will not put the finger inside the trigger guard for anything but a known/confirmed malicious intruder. Even in the Methjave Desert that is super unlikely. Easily checked using a camera flash (also kept at hand), which will reveal and disorient the other person and not make an easy target of me.
 
Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Your reason is exactly why I contemplated getting a gun. To protect myself from other gun owners. It's an emotional decision, not a rational one (see below). It also propagates the cycle of gun violence.

From a practical POV, It's very rare that a gun owner will successfully use their gun in self defense.

About 80 million people own a gun. In 2018, guns were successfully used in self defense 70,000 times or 0.0875% of gun owners used a gun in self defense. It's a tiny number. To put it in perspective, one can expect to flip a fair coin ten times and get heads every time 0.098% of the time.

For that, I should go through all the hassle of buying, maintaining, securing, practicing, finding the right holster, etc., all the while introducing other rare though larger risks that go along with it? It's your choice to make and maybe you live in an area that is much less safe that I do. But for me, no thanks.
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I do enjoy shooting targets, but that's not why i bought a pistol.
I'm not going to tell you that I'm special, and maybe it does just makes me "feel" better, but if i hear gunfire in walmart or the grocery store, or where ever, i don't plan to be a hero, I'm not going to go take out an active shooter. I'm going to try to get as far away from them as I can, and only try to shoot them if it becomes unavoidable.
 
printer

printer

Well-Known Member
cannabineer said:
Imo a better metric is defensive uses divided by accidental or negligent gunshot injuries/deaths. Iirc that ratio is about one in fifteen.

Still compelling statistics. I have no interest in carrying a gun. It’s not only a huge hassle, but the gun is more likely to get me in trouble or even be used against me or mine. It’s not like I have a spec-ops background.

I have a single reasonable defense scenario: I’m in bed, and I hear an unexpected entry.

Even then, the chances are overwhelmingly that it’s a neighbor on a mission of concern, or some dumb kid, or even an offspring seeking unannounced asylum from an abusive partner.

I certainly will not put the finger inside the trigger guard for anything but a known/confirmed malicious intruder. Even in the Methjave Desert that is super unlikely. Easily checked using a camera flash (also kept at hand), which will reveal and disorient the other person and not make an easy target of me.
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Ooooo... ..... never thought of a flash, I like it. I am going to have to make a little unit. One that screams also?
 
printer

printer

Well-Known Member
Roger A. Shrubber said:
I do enjoy shooting targets, but that's not why i bought a pistol.
I'm not going to tell you that I'm special, and maybe it does just makes me "feel" better, but if i hear gunfire in walmart or the grocery store, or where ever, i don't plan to be a hero, I'm not going to go take out an active shooter. I'm going to try to get as far away from them as I can, and only try to shoot them if it becomes unavoidable.
Click to expand...
I would not mind going target shooting again but I probably would not go more than a few times a year and it would not be worth getting a club membership. Now that I can not get rid of my guns I guess they will just sit until I die. I never thought of getting a gun for defence, The likelihood of getting into a situation that would require a shot to be fired is pretty slim up here.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
cannabineer said:
Imo a better metric is defensive uses divided by accidental or negligent gunshot injuries/deaths. Iirc that ratio is about one in fifteen.

Still compelling statistics. I have no interest in carrying a gun. It’s not only a huge hassle, but the gun is more likely to get me in trouble or even be used against me or mine. It’s not like I have a spec-ops background.

I have a single reasonable defense scenario: I’m in bed, and I hear an unexpected entry.

Even then, the chances are overwhelmingly that it’s a neighbor on a mission of concern, or some dumb kid, or even an offspring seeking unannounced asylum from an abusive partner.

I certainly will not put the finger inside the trigger guard for anything but a known/confirmed malicious intruder. Even in the Methjave Desert that is super unlikely. Easily checked using a camera flash (also kept at hand), which will reveal and disorient the other person and not make an easy target of me.
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defensive uses / sum(gun caused injury or death through accident, negligence) is a metric for successful protection rate.

You make a good point. For every defensive use of a gun, there are fifteen times when a gun harms somebody against the intent of its owner. If we add in suicide and crimes using a gun, successful defense rate would be much lower. If that resonates with people reading this, I'd like to hear about it. I don't think this is a problem that can be addressed rationally. We live in a very safe society but people don't feel safe. So they buy a gun.

That said, Successful defense rate is not what I was getting at. I was getting at how rare it is for a gun to ever be used in self defense.

80 million gun owners. A very large majority of them give "self defense" as a reason the own it. Excluding hunting or pest control or collecting or target shooting. The most common use for a gun is suicide. The next most common use for a gun is as a tool to help them commit a crime. Rates for those two uses is huge, something like 97% of all times a gun is used. Accidental or negligent discharge injuring or killing somebody is the next most frequent time a gun does what it is designed to do. Way down beneath that stack of tragedy is self defense.

If I bought a gun, the likelihood of my gun being used in self defense is so small, I'd be better off throwing it into the deep sea.
 
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cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Fogdog said:
defensive uses / sum(gun caused injury or death through accident, negligence) is a metric for successful protection rate.

You make a good point. For every defensive use of a gun, there are fifteen times when a gun harms somebody against the intent of its owner. If we add in suicide and crimes using a gun, successful defense rate would be much lower. If that resonates with people reading this, I'd like to hear about it. I don't think this is a problem that can be addressed rationally. We live in a very safe society but people don't feel safe. So they buy a gun.

That said, Successful defense rate is not what I was getting at. I was getting at how rare it is for a gun to ever be used in self defense.

80 million gun owners. A very large majority of them give "self defense" as a reason the own it. Excluding hunting or pest control or collecting. The most common use for a gun is suicide. The next most common use for a gun is as a tool to help them commit a crime. Rates for those two uses is huge, something like 97% of all times a gun is used. Accidental or negligent discharge injuring or killing somebody is the next most frequent time a gun does what it is designed to do. Way down beneath that stack of tragedy is self defense.

If I bought a gun, the likelihood of my gun being used in self defense is so small, I'd be better off throwing it into the deep sea.
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I largely agree.
However I argue with no real vigor that suicide (excepting suicide with someone else’s gun) is its own category.

(add) I do wish that when I write “its” the spell chicken wouldn’t auto-insert an incorrect apostrophe.
 
Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
printer said:
I would not mind going target shooting again but I probably would not go more than a few times a year and it would not be worth getting a club membership. Now that I can not get rid of my guns I guess they will just sit until I die. I never thought of getting a gun for defence, The likelihood of getting into a situation that would require a shot to be fired is pretty slim up here.
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why can't you get rid of your guns?
 
Budley Doright

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
Roger A. Shrubber said:
forgot about that...living in America, you forget sometimes that the entire world isn't an armed camp, waiting to explode.
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I wish that wasn’t a true statement. Worst president ever the Republican front runner is a window into the insanity you all are facing, good luck :(. I have noticed there are fewer voices re Trump supporters here lately. Are they finally getting it?
 
Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
printer said:
I could export to the US but I was told the cost would end up eating all the price of the sale.
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While i am not promoting smuggling in any way, if you can get them over the border, many states here have person to person sales that require nothing but cash and a weapon being traded.
Otherwise, do strange things to them, frame them, and call it art...
 
printer

printer

Well-Known Member
Roger A. Shrubber said:
While i am not promoting smuggling in any way, if you can get them over the border, many states here have person to person sales that require nothing but cash and a weapon being traded.
Otherwise, do strange things to them, frame them, and call it art...
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Not like I need the money, just another hobby, hobbies are not the greatest return on investment. Just a couple of grand, heck, I spent more on guitar making supplies.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
This time it was a block party in Baltimore. It was hot during the day, people got together after it cooled down enough to celebrate the evening and the beginning of July 4 weekend. So of course somebody brought out their gun. 2 killed, 28 injured. Just calling them "injured" doesn't describe what a gunshot wound does to the victim. It would be more accurate to call them maimed.

Yet one more time that the myth of "guns are for self defense" is proven to be a lie. Where was the defender? There must have been other guns in that crowd. I'm not saying those gun owners are cowards, they probably made the right decision to get out of harm's way. I am saying that the good guy with the gun myth is a deception to stymie rational gun laws.

www.wbaltv.com

2 deceased mass shooting victims identified; $8K reward offered

As many as 30 people were shot in a mass shooting overnight in Brooklyn, Baltimore police said.
www.wbaltv.com www.wbaltv.com

30 people shot in mass shooting at south Baltimore block party, 2 dead

Multiple calls lead to mass shooting at party overnight in Brooklyn neighborhood

The mayor's office released a statement, saying: "In the early morning hours of July 2, a horrific mass shooting occurred at Brooklyn Homes in south Baltimore. At this time, two people have been killed and 28 others injured, leaving three people in critical condition. My heart is with those who lost their lives, all those who are now battling injuries, and their loved ones. This community should also know that they have our wholehearted support during this unimaginably difficult time. This act of violence has shaken our city to the very core, and we are all grappling with the shock, pain, and trauma that accompanies such a heinous act of destruction.
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Fogdog said:
This time it was a block party in Baltimore. It was hot during the day, people got together after it cooled down enough to celebrate the evening and the beginning of July 4 weekend. So of course somebody brought out their gun. 2 killed, 28 injured. Just calling them "injured" doesn't describe what a gunshot wound does to the victim. It would be more accurate to call them maimed.

Yet one more time that the myth of "guns are for self defense" is proven to be a lie. Where was the defender? There must have been other guns in that crowd. I'm not saying those gun owners are cowards, they probably made the right decision to get out of harm's way. I am saying that the good guy with the gun myth is a deception to stymie rational gun laws.

www.wbaltv.com

2 deceased mass shooting victims identified; $8K reward offered

As many as 30 people were shot in a mass shooting overnight in Brooklyn, Baltimore police said.
www.wbaltv.com www.wbaltv.com

30 people shot in mass shooting at south Baltimore block party, 2 dead

Multiple calls lead to mass shooting at party overnight in Brooklyn neighborhood

The mayor's office released a statement, saying: "In the early morning hours of July 2, a horrific mass shooting occurred at Brooklyn Homes in south Baltimore. At this time, two people have been killed and 28 others injured, leaving three people in critical condition. My heart is with those who lost their lives, all those who are now battling injuries, and their loved ones. This community should also know that they have our wholehearted support during this unimaginably difficult time. This act of violence has shaken our city to the very core, and we are all grappling with the shock, pain, and trauma that accompanies such a heinous act of destruction.
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someone planned this and almost certainly brought several loaded hi-cap magazines.

Four gets you five that an AR or AK platform was used.
 
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