Climate in the 21st Century

Will Humankind see the 22nd Century?

  • Not a fucking chance

    Votes: 44 28.0%
  • Maybe. if we get our act together

    Votes: 41 26.1%
  • Yes, we will survive

    Votes: 72 45.9%

  • Total voters
    157

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
i can't, and i just read it......

i love how car companies can boast about things, but when it comes to testing on the ground it's not......
There is a whole industry dedicated to reviewing cars and now EVs so the true numbers are out there and will be more so in the future. Batteries are the key the factories are going up and the new chemistries and battery types are arriving. Up until now all EV batteries were Li-on batteries that increased a bit in capacity and performance over decades and are flammable, but that is about to change in a big way with plenty more options and probably lower costs.
 

BudmanTX

Well-Known Member
There is a whole industry dedicated to reviewing cars and now EVs so the true numbers are out there and will be more so in the future. Batteries are the key the factories are going up and the new chemistries and battery types are arriving. Up until now all EV batteries were Li-on batteries that increased a bit in capacity and performance over decades and are flammable, but that is about to change in a big way with plenty more options and probably lower costs.
i know, i work in the automotive industry, and i've been doing it for bout 30yrs, so when i read articles from auto publications i get skeptical, cause some car manufactures will boast one thing while in reality it's not.....now when in comes to EV stuff, Li-on Stuff, and Hydrogen stuff, since it's new on the market, they can boast but in reality it's not.....it's got years to get where it needs too.....

biggest one i found was Volkwagen in the 2k era....
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member

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They are having trouble with insurance and home charging in the garage, fortunately there are nonflammable alternatives on the way. I think these issues will eventually drive flammable Li-on batteries out of the market, as soon as other options arrive. Sodium batteries might be the solution for small cheap EV and ebikes, nonflammable, very long life, great extreme temperature performance, lower costing and the power densities are approaching some Li-on batteries at a pack level because of reduced cooling requirements. They are making them in India using UK tech, in America and in China by a couple of different companies. Also new electrolytes have been developed for Li-on batteries that are nonflammable or less so and operate better at lower temps.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
They are having trouble with insurance and home charging in the garage, fortunately there are nonflammable alternatives on the way. I think these issues will eventually drive flammable Li-on batteries out of the market, as soon as other options arrive. Sodium batteries might be the solution for small cheap EV and ebikes, nonflammable, very long life, great extreme temperature performance, lower costing and the power densities are approaching some Li-on batteries at a pack level because of reduced cooling requirements. They are making them in India using UK tech, in America and in China by a couple of different companies. Also new electrolytes have been developed for Li-on batteries that are nonflammable or less so and operate better at lower temps.
Sodium batteries are quite flammable. Ever play with sodium metal? I did. Good times.

Any high-energy-density chemical battery will contain an energetically combustible cathode material, in close proximity to a pretty good oxidizer.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Sodium batteries are quite flammable. Ever play with sodium metal? I did. Good times.

Any high-energy-density chemical battery will contain an energetically combustible cathode material, in close proximity to a pretty good oxidizer.
Sodium might be reactive, but the batteries are not flammable and use a water-based electrolyte, the answer for such batteries is a "pacification" layer or coating that modulates the reaction. Sodium batteries can also be shipped in a zero-volt state and around 3V is the lower limit for Li-ons. I've seen pictures of a hole drilled through a charged sodium cell with no reactions.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Sodium might be reactive, but the batteries are not flammable and use a water-based electrolyte, the answer for such batteries is a "pacification" layer or coating that modulates the reaction. Sodium batteries can also be shipped in a zero-volt state and around 3V is the lower limit for Li-ons. I've seen pictures of a hole drilled through a charged sodium cell with no reactions.
I was thinking sodium-sulfur, in which both ends are a fire risk.

Sodium-ion batteries have a quite low energy density, typically 10kg/kWh. That’s ok for fixed installations, but vehicles? not so much.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Sodium batteries are quite flammable. Ever play with sodium metal? I did. Good times.

Any high-energy-density chemical battery will contain an energetically combustible cathode material, in close proximity to a pretty good oxidizer.
If they were JUST sodium you would be right, but they aren't. They're a sodium ion, meaning sodium salt. About as flammable as the stuff you sprinkle on your veggies.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
I was thinking sodium-sulfur, in which both ends are a fire risk.

Sodium-ion batteries have a quite low energy density, typically 10kg/kWh. That’s ok for fixed installations, but vehicles? not so much.
They are using them in cars in China now.

Sodium-Ion Cell Characteristics
An energy density of 100 to 160 Wh/kg and 290Wh/L at cell level. A voltage range of 1.5 to 4.3V. Note that cells can be discharged down to 0V and shipped at 0V, increasing safety during shipping. 20-30% lower cell BOM cost than LFP.


Sodium-Ion - Battery Design
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
They are having trouble with insurance and home charging in the garage, fortunately there are nonflammable alternatives on the way. I think these issues will eventually drive flammable Li-on batteries out of the market, as soon as other options arrive. Sodium batteries might be the solution for small cheap EV and ebikes, nonflammable, very long life, great extreme temperature performance, lower costing and the power densities are approaching some Li-on batteries at a pack level because of reduced cooling requirements. They are making them in India using UK tech, in America and in China by a couple of different companies. Also new electrolytes have been developed for Li-on batteries that are nonflammable or less so and operate better at lower temps.
I know literally nothing about insurance systems in other countries but like I said in regards to the ebikes as well, it’s not a factor here in a way that it forms an obstacle for consumers. Suggesting a potentional or new EV (or ebike) owner he/she bought a firehazard would result in similar looks responsed to the claim Jesus will soon return. I think the insurance companies you’re talking about are perhaps more worried about profits than providing a service? In fact, the one I use for car insurance is non-profit and at the end of the year they pay me money back cause not enough people damaged their car or house to justify the $50 p/m I pay. Would be near double for a tesla but still.

Nobody here is going to pass on the opportunity to get an EV because of that ship. And uhm… looking at it from a more positive perspective, 25 EVs just killed 2500 ICE cars. :D ( ok in reality they’ll probably rebuild and reship… plus the repair of the ship causes far more damage to the planet than the EVs would have saved ).
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
They are using them in cars in China now.

Sodium-Ion Cell Characteristics
An energy density of 100 to 160 Wh/kg and 290Wh/L at cell level. A voltage range of 1.5 to 4.3V. Note that cells can be discharged down to 0V and shipped at 0V, increasing safety during shipping. 20-30% lower cell BOM cost than LFP.

Sodium-Ion - Battery Design
That’s still energy density unsuitable for anything but fixed installations or golf carts.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
That’s still energy density unsuitable for anything but fixed installations or golf carts.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
I know literally nothing about insurance systems in other countries but like I said in regards to the ebikes as well, it’s not a factor here in a way that it forms an obstacle for consumers. Suggesting a potentional or new EV (or ebike) owner he/she bought a firehazard would result in similar looks responsed to the claim Jesus will soon return. I think the insurance companies you’re talking about are perhaps more worried about profits than providing a service? In fact, the one I use for car insurance is non-profit and at the end of the year they pay me money back cause not enough people damaged their car or house to justify the $50 p/m I pay. Would be near double for a tesla but still.

Nobody here is going to pass on the opportunity to get an EV because of that ship. And uhm… looking at it from a more positive perspective, 25 EVs just killed 2500 ICE cars. :D ( ok in reality they’ll probably rebuild and reship… plus the repair of the ship causes far more damage to the planet than the EVs would have saved ).
Here insurance is private and there are fire concerns with these batteries and even roof top solar and home battery storage. For things like home storage, Ebikes and low-end small cars I think sodium might be the way to go.

This gives you a small taste of what is happening in the battery industry and what we can look forward to, everything is in flux right now and the winners are uncertain, but I think the traditional Li-on battery is dead or will be and the fire hazard will be one of its pitfalls.

 
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Sativied

Well-Known Member
Here insurance is private and there are fire concerns with these batteries and even roof top solar and home battery storage. For things like home storage, Ebikes and low-end small cars I think sodium might be the way to go.

This gives you a small taste of what is happening in the battery industry and what we can look forward to, everything is in flux right now and the winners are uncertain, but I think the traditional Li-on battery is dead or will be and the fire hazard will be one of its pitfalls.

It’s private here too. The near-socialistic one I use is not the standard. If you look at actual cases, and the monetary damage involved, and divide that by everyone who has (mandator) insurance, it’s a non-issue.

It’s not that an EV is more likely to catch fire than an ICE car, it’s just that the latter isn’t as newsworth and once an EV burns it’s more likely total loss cause it‘s hardr to put out. At least according to Dekra, “the world’s largest non-listed expert organization in the TIC sector founded in Berlin, Germany [highest density ev in eu] in 1925 as Deutscher Kraftfahrzeug-Überwachungs-Verein. At 28 million per year worldwide, DEKRA inspects more vehicles than any other organization.” and the ANWB (dutch insurance and roadside assistance). So nope, I don’t see it. Of course a more save alternative would be great but statistically it’s not a realistic downside of EVs today,
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
It’s private here too. The near-socialistic one I use is not the standard. If you look at actual cases, and the monetary damage involved, and divide that by everyone who has (mandator) insurance, it’s a non-issue.

It’s not that an EV is more likely to catch fire than an ICE car, it’s just that the latter isn’t as newsworth and once an EV burns it’s more likely total loss cause it‘s hardr to put out. At least according to Dekra, “the world’s largest non-listed expert organization in the TIC sector founded in Berlin, Germany [highest density ev in eu] in 1925 as Deutscher Kraftfahrzeug-Überwachungs-Verein. At 28 million per year worldwide, DEKRA inspects more vehicles than any other organization.” and the ANWB (dutch insurance and roadside assistance). So nope, I don’t see it. Of course a more save alternative would be great but statistically it’s not a realistic downside of EVs today,
I don't think it will be an issue much longer, progress marches on.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Make it, stick it to a substrate and pump neodymium rich water over it, tailor for use with other rare earths.

 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Hello Florida, extracurricular climate change education is about to arrive with the school season. It should be quite a field trip, who needs books when you can have actual experience...

 
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