The Never Ending Abuse of Phosphorous (Bloom foods) to Enhance Flowering

[IslandGreenGuy]

Uncle ben,,,,
I not gonna debate the use of Phosphorous with you because I would cetainly lose, as you plants are much larger then mine. But I am goin to say that Using Advanced Nutrients Big Bud has dramaticly increased the yeild of my plants cut and dry. When I did add it at a ppm of 600 to my res. I saw huge differences in size in just a couple of weeks. Mind you I was growing from clones so I have a good comparison to use.

What would you say is the proper amount of P and K for flowering? Also, I continue to use my other nutes (advanced nutrients grow, micro, bloom) thoughout at a ppm of 2000 and my lower leaves still fall off wilt.

Just curious on what your thoughts on this are..

 

[laserbrn]

Great post Uncle Ben.
I've been thinking along those lines and on my current grow I've kept up the nitrogen, in smaller doses than vegging, and after 6 weeks of 12/12 my buds are much bigger and denser than usual, and the leaf integrity has remained good, although not as green as before when vegging.

Oh spiked1 you fought me tooth an nail on this issue. I'm glad that you took my advice ANYWAY and you have found the same thing that I was trying to tell you, greener leaves at the end mean fatter buds. Glad the discussion didn't go to waste.

 

[spiked1]

Oh spiked1 you fought me tooth an nail on this issue. I'm glad that you took my advice ANYWAY and you have found the same thing that I was trying to tell you, greener leaves at the end mean fatter buds. Glad the discussion didn't go to waste.

I remember now, I wasn't disagreeing with you as much as you thought, but I am old enough to know that I'm not always right. So I decided to try adding more nitrogen during flower after our discussion and was nicely surprised at the results. So I'm still adding some fish emulsion with my bloom nutes and they seem to like it, my leaves haven't gone yellow and fallen off after 6 1/2 weeks of budding, my buds are growing big, fat and solid.

 

[laserbrn]

I remember now, I wasn't disagreeing with you as much as you thought, but I am old enough to know that I'm not always right. So I decided to try adding more nitrogen during flower after our discussion and was nicely surprised at the results. So I'm still adding some fish emulsion with my bloom nutes and they seem to like it, my leaves haven't gone yellow and fallen off after 6 1/2 weeks of budding, my buds are growing big, fat and solid.

I know, I'm just glad that you tried it. It's much more rewarding and unfortunately there's so much spread around here about how it's "Okay" early on to have yellowing and to harvest your plants with no leaves.

I'm definitely going to give you +rep for TRYING it instead of being stubborn like most on here and believing everything that you read.

 

[Uncle Ben]

I know, I'm just glad that you tried it. It's much more rewarding and unfortunately there's so much spread around here about how it's "Okay" early on to have yellowing and to harvest your plants with no leaves.

I'm definitely going to give you +rep for TRYING it instead of being stubborn like most on here and believing everything that you read.

That's what I'm talkin' about.

 

[Uncle Ben]

Uncle ben,,,,
I not gonna debate the use of Phosphorous with you because I would cetainly lose, as you plants are much larger then mine. But I am goin to say that Using Advanced Nutrients Big Bud has dramaticly increased the yeild of my plants cut and dry.

In spite of your leaves falling off? Sorry, I don't get it.

What would you say is the proper amount of P and K for flowering? Also, I continue to use my other nutes (advanced nutrients grow, micro, bloom) thoughout at a ppm of 2000 and my lower leaves still fall off wilt.

Just curious on what your thoughts on this are..

Good luck,
UB

 

[Big P]

im using GH Flora 3 part Series in DWC

I do the veg ratio for vegging which is 3 parts grow 2 parts micro 3 parts bloom


and I keep that mix for the plants until about the second week of flowering. after that i switch to 2 parts Grow 2 parts Micro 2 parts Bloom


then after 1 week of that i switch to full blast flowering mix which is 1 Grow 2 Micro 3 Bloom

then after a week of that which is the end of forth week of flower I begin to also add KoolBloom about 1 Tsp per gallon


7 days before I chop i flush with clearex

7 days after that i somke it

 

[Mammath]

Great thread UB.
I use canna nutes with great success. They have a breakdown of 20-12-37 in their Flores mix.
More Nitrogen than Phosphorus and more Potassium than anything else.
Canna obviously feel Potassium and Nitrogen play more of an important role than Phosphorus during flowering.
My plants don't suffer much yellowing and dropping at all right through until chop time because of the high N factor in the Canna Flores.
I was surprised to see this high level of K in the nute but it works very well.
Can you explain the importance of Potassium during flowering?

I also give them a blast of Canna PK 13-14 during week 5 of flowering, but it's only for one week. Works a treat.

Here's a pic of my latest grow at day 56 of 12/12, she's almost done, hardly dropped a leaf, and bud development has been exceptional.

 

[Uncle Ben]

Great thread UB.
I use canna nutes with great success. They have a breakdown of 20-12-37 in their Flores mix.

For flowering that's a decent NPK ratio. 1-3-2 seems to be the "defacto" for soil growers, just splitting hairs here.

My plants don't suffer much yellowing and dropping at all right through until chop time because of the high N factor in the Canna Flores.
I was surprised to see this high level of K in the nute but it works very well.
Can you explain the importance of Potassium during flowering?

Great that you carry leaves all the way through to harvest! That's what it's all about.

K? This explanation might help: http://www.jacksclassic.com/flowering_plant_care.html

I also give them a blast of Canna PK 13-14 during week 5 of flowering, but it's only for one week. Works a treat.

Here's a pic of my latest grow at day 56 of 12/12, she's almost done, hardly dropped a leaf, and bud development has been exceptional.

Excellent job! You're gonna get some nice yields from your solid cultural practices......the fact that you've been able to retain most of your leaves in a green healthy condition until harvest. Sadly, this very important goal is what most folks fail to understand. Seems more important to go along with a forum paradigm than think outside of the box and carefully take care of plant requirements. Good on ya!

Happy harvest,
UB

 

[KP2]

thank you uncle ben, for having the patience when i did not .

only thing i think i can add, is try a 123 ratio for flower, up the potassium. you may just be pleasantly surprised. this goes out in general, not to any one poster...

 

[Uncle Ben]

thank you uncle ben, for having the patience when i did not .

only thing i think i can add, is try a 123 ratio for flower, up the potassium. you may just be pleasantly surprised. this goes out in general, not to any one poster...

Well, patience is not my strongest virtue, just ask Aunt Benita. That 1-2-3 is about right. I talked to Jack Peters about his 10-30-20 food, about the high amount of P, and he admitted it was more than enough.

Using a Bloom food is fine and dandy but if and when you start losing leaves prematurely, you best switch back to a more balanced mix.

 

[laserbrn]

Using a Bloom food is fine and dandy but if and when you start losing leaves prematurely, you best switch back to a more balanced mix.

Wow, I thought I was the only one on this entire forum anymore that preached harvesting green leaves!

UB, glad to see another rational voice out there. I've been around on these forums for quite some time and it seems like the past year or two this misinformation has spread like fire. It's got to be the marketing of these "Bloom Enhancers", but when I tell growers to try it just once this way, they always come back and say they got better results.

 

[Uncle Ben]

Wow, I thought I was the only one on this entire forum anymore that preached harvesting green leaves!

UB, glad to see another rational voice out there. I've been around on these forums for quite some time and it seems like the past year or two this misinformation has spread like fire. It's got to be the marketing of these "Bloom Enhancers", but when I tell growers to try it just once this way, they always come back and say they got better results.

It's the blind leading the blind, folks pushing rocket fuel names rather than sound plant culture. FWIW, I use the term "forum paradigms" quite frequently in cannabis forums.

Rational thought will set you free,
UB

 

[Uncle Ben]

Case in point, here is an example of how important it is to maintain leaves in a healthy green condition. I added a little too much blood meal to my potting soil, didn't get any burn though and that's what's important. The side benefit of maintaining leaf health is getting a double harvest too. Harvest #1 - snip the cola at a point where it turns from a "fat can" to airy buds, and place the plant back under the lights to bulk up them up, for harvest #2....it makes a big difference in overall yield.

42 days into flowering with LOT'S of chlorophyll:

70 days into flowering. Cola is about 24" long, about 3" - 6" in girth:

Harvest, fan leaves looking pretty worn but still hanging on:

Cola macro showing very dense bud structure:

 

[ejf1676]

uncle ben this is very intriguing advice i am kind of new to indoor and have had many of the issues you have described and have had a hard time finding straight forward information based in experience (lots of technical speculation) next grow i will definitely try prescribing to your theory's i will be using ionic brand ferts soil/coco 2-1-2 and bloom 1-1-3 on my hydro shops recommendation (he had really good results with this) as i am new to this fert it will be interesting to see how it works and what supplements it will need (i supplement organically as being familiar to outdoor) as i am not able to find much in the way of people who use these nutes anyway thanks uncle well presented!

 

[Stoney Jake]

Beautiful UB

 

[wbinwv]

Very interesting post UB. I use Jacks Classic Orchid 30-10-10 for veg and the 10-30-20 Blossom Booster for flower. These plants have been flowering for 37 days and I'm seeing much of the premature yellowing that you're talking about. However, it looks like I'm going to get a decent yield from these two. I'm wondering how much better it would have been had I read this thread sooner.

I'm switching to Aero after this which is my last soil grow but I just took these pictures to share them with you so you could see an example of the premature yellowing that you speak of. What you say makes perfect sense to me.

 

[laserbrn]

You have no idea how good your yeild would have been. But that much yellowing at Day 37? Have you checked the PH of your runoff? Looks like you locked something out, your nutes aren't that far off and that doesn't look like N deficiency. Is that the ONLY flowering nutes you are using? The 10-30-20 sounds like one of the over-hyped "bloom enhancer"'s. If this is the only food you gave it, then it would present problems, but I'm not sure that this is what it would look like and that it would be this severe. Did it start early and progress slowly or did this show up all of a sudden (less than a week)?

Could be the nutes, could be PH, but you should look into regular fertilizers instead of using a "bloom enhancer" for your main feed for sure. Those Bloom Enhancers aren't supposed to be used until later in flowering.

 

[wbinwv]

You have no idea how good your yeild would have been. But that much yellowing at Day 37? Have you checked the PH of your runoff? Looks like you locked something out, your nutes aren't that far off and that doesn't look like N deficiency. Is that the ONLY flowering nutes you are using? The 10-30-20 sounds like one of the over-hyped "bloom enhancer"'s. If this is the only food you gave it, then it would present problems, but I'm not sure that this is what it would look like and that it would be this severe. Did it start early and progress slowly or did this show up all of a sudden (less than a week)?

Could be the nutes, could be PH, but you should look into regular fertilizers instead of using a "bloom enhancer" for your main feed for sure. Those Bloom Enhancers aren't supposed to be used until later in flowering.

I use ph'd water from 5.5 in clone stage to 6 now and my runoff this morning was 6.3 ....The yellowing didnt start until approx 20 days into flower but it is spreading fast.

I don't understand what you're talking about in reference to the Jack's Classic. It is my understanding that the 10-30-20 Blossom Booster with micronutrients ....IS regular fertilizer / proper nutes to feed during flower. I had no idea that this is only an "additive" and if so, the guy that owns the shop where I bought this stuff is clueless.

So if what I'm using isnt correct then what IS correct flowering food?

 

[laserbrn]

I use ph'd water from 5.5 in clone stage to 6 now and my runoff this morning was 6.3 ....The yellowing didnt start until approx 20 days into flower but it is spreading fast.

I don't understand what you're talking about in reference to the Jack's Classic. It is my understanding that the 10-30-20 Blossom Booster with micronutrients ....IS regular fertilizer / proper nutes to feed during flower. I had no idea that this is only an "additive" and if so, the guy that owns the shop where I bought this stuff is clueless.

So if what I'm using isnt correct then what IS correct flowering food?

It may very well be, I just think it's too high in P and I wouldn't have used it until later in flower. But I usually grow in Hydro and things are a little different. It's clearly not a bloom booster because it has N, most of them have none and books P and/or K heavily.

It seems like it was working and something else has gone wrong if it's that drastic. Buds look good though, which is always the argument for the high P fertilizers. You're definitely going to get a good yeild and they look great.