Questions on Advanced Nutrients

jnester74

Active Member
I am thinking of moving over from Foxfarm to Advanced Nutes. I grow in soil (foxfarm Ocean forest)
I want to know what one I should be going with (Micro Grow Bloom; Connoisseur; or Sensi). Do they all work in soil the same. Are the Measurements different? If they are different does it give me those measurements?

Thank you in advance for your help.
 

BeefSupreme

Active Member
Well, Micro Grow Bloom is your base nutes, then Sensizym is an enzyme for your soil/roots, then use Connoisseur for flowering. They really arent comparable as far as choosing 1.
 

fatman7574

New Member
If growing soil less I would use FF rather than AN. The only good product AN really puts out in the way of nutrients is its Sensi Concentrated Powder. It is its only fertilizer that contains calcium. With soil grows where you are adding lime or if your using tap water then the lack of calcium is OK, but AN is definitely not all it claims.

I have been mixing fertilizers for years and do a lot of nutrient analysis of products sold by retailers. Given a choice between GH or AN I would buy GH.

As far as 80% of AN 's products. They are just a waste of money. Commercial agriculture would not buy them at 5% of the cost AN wants for them as they are just not worth the money considering the minimal results. Their trash talk about them be designed for growing pot is all nonsence. AN hires old college researchers that have retired and they just drag out old resarch documents on researchered preparations that were not considered worth while when tested extensively years ago. They are no better now.

The only reason they are being drug out of the files now and being mixed up and sold now is because pot growers will pay absurd prices as pot is worth absurd amounts of money. They are not now testing the products, they are merely relying on old research that shows they produced some crop yield increases or increased sugra or protein amounts on some crop such as tomatoes or cucumbers or even wheat, rice or corn.

Do you realise out of over 60 products that AN manafacturers only about a dozen can even be legally sold in many parts of the US where the majority of commercial green houses are located.

GH Maxibloom or a mix of two parts Florabloom and one part Floramicro is a good choice . They are aero/hydro formulas though not soil. For soil I would stick with Fox Farm organic fertilizers. and not even consider AN or GH.
 

anhedonia

Well-Known Member
Fox Farm fertilizers arent organic. As far as AN, Ive only used 4 of thier products, bud blood, tarantula and thier cloning solution called jump start. Cant say ive seen any dramatic results. I also just returned a bottle of juicy roots gel that didnt root not one single cutting and all the cuts I used juicy roots on died.
 

highpsi

Well-Known Member
The only good product AN really puts out in the way of nutrients is its Sensi Concentrated Powder. It is its only fertilizer that contains calcium.
While I agree with most of your post, I have to correct the quote above. The AN 3-part does contain calcium. I know this not only through what's listed as guarenteed analysis on the label, but for the fact that I use this stuff exclusively (I don't add cal-mag, etc.) with R/O water and if it didn't contain calcium, my plants wouldn't grow. In fact, the AN 3-part is identical to the GH flora series and both of these products are equally as good. But I do agree with you that AN is a lot of hype indeed. On my next crop I will be using the GH Maxi series, much cheaper than AN and hopefully it performs just as well.
 

Tyrannabudz

Well-Known Member
All of AN base nutrients and additives can be used in soil. I am currently using FFOF and AN with great results. I was using an all organic nutrient regiment before and can see the difference in how much stronger and faster my plants are now growing using all AN with the exception of organic molasses and kelp. I plan on running a side by side comp. grow in the future with two identical clones.

It really depends on your budget which base nutrients you go with. Grow, Micro, Bloom 3 part nutes are the most economical from AN. Which contains all the necessary major & micro nutrients necessary for a good crop. A step up from there is the Sensi 2 part grow & bloom nutes.
Connoisseur is a bloom fertilizer only.
Then there is the myriad of additives they sell. While it is not absolutely necessary to use additives, since most nutes contain pretty much all you need to get your grow on. Using the right additives at the right times can make a good thing even better.

Here is what I use and they all work excellent in soil.
Base nutes:
Sensi grow A&B
Connoisseur bloom A&B
Benefical bacteria:
Piranha
Tarantula
Voodoo Juice
Sensizym
Additives:
Age Old Organics Kelp
Blackstrap Molasses
Bud Blood
Big Bud
Bud Factor X
H-2
Carboload
Overdrive
Final Phase
 

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fatman7574

New Member
Anhedonia
Fox Farm fertilizers arent organic. As far as AN, Ive only used 4 of thier products, bud blood, tarantula and thier cloning solution called jump start. Cant say ive seen any dramatic results. I also just returned a bottle of juicy roots gel that didnt root not one single cutting and all the cuts I used juicy roots on died.

What, not organic?

"Fox Farm is the micro brewery of premium plant foods and soil mixes. Not only the end product, but the complete process of caring for the earthworm cultures is under our direct supervision. Because organic ingredients play such a large role in our company, all formulas are handcrafted in small batches to ensure superior consistency and quality control."
http://www.botanical.com/hydro/nutrients/foxfarm.html

Fox Farm plant food includes valuable vitamins, humic acid, amino acids and the organic materials needed to encourage beneficial microbes, and micro nutrients.

Fox Farm is a small, family-run business dedicated to producing the finest quality garden products available anywhere. FoxFarm Nutrients are some of the finest organic nutrients on the market.

FoxFarm is the micro-brewery of premium plant foods and soil mixes. Not only the end product, but the complete process of caring for the earthworm cultures is under their direct supervision. Because organic ingredients play such a large role in their company, all formulas are handcrafted in small batches to ensure superior consistency and quality control.

We are known as the Microbrewery of Premium Plant Foods and Soil Mixes. Our fertilizers are built around the use of earthworm castings, nature’s finest soil amendment. Not only the end product, but the complete process of caring for the earthworm cultures is under our direct supervision. FoxFarm has been a “hands-on” Bioneer for over 17 years in developing and producing superior organic plant foods and extra-strength soil mixes.
http://www.foxfarmfertilizer.com/aboutfox.html

The Company Logo for FoxFarm states "Smart Organics for Everyday Life."
 

fatman7574

New Member
While I agree with most of your post, I have to correct the quote above. The AN 3-part does contain calcium. I know this not only through what's listed as guarenteed analysis on the label, but for the fact that I use this stuff exclusively (I don't add cal-mag, etc.) with R/O water and if it didn't contain calcium, my plants wouldn't grow. In fact, the AN 3-part is identical to the GH flora series and both of these products are equally as good. But I do agree with you that AN is a lot of hype indeed. On my next crop I will be using the GH Maxi series, much cheaper than AN and hopefully it performs just as well.

What is the name of this AN three Part that contains Calcium. The only three part that contains calcium contains it in the form of Magnesium Carbonate, and Pottasium Carbonate. Neither are available to the plants in the form of carbonates. They are buffers and not able to be taken up by the plants. Both are insoluble residues. They can be broken down in soil grows but are merely pH buffers when in a nutrient solution used in inert hydro or aero.

https://www.advancednutrients.com/advancepedia/product.php?productID=9&catID=18

While AN advertises now that its Micro contains a bit over 5% soluble calcium, the analysis gurantee it submitted to to the states requiring testing stated an analysis guarantee of no soluble calcium and tested out at no soluble calcium.

Heaven forbid AN could be found to be lying to anyone. Perhaps they just have production quality control problems instead or they are merely confused what they are guranteeing or supplying.

There is a huge difference between soluble and insoluble calcium. Such discrepancies might explain why their registration on over 75% of their products are listed as pending. Both Bloom and Micro are listed as pending. Grow is a registered product as they appear to agree that it gurantees and supplies no soluble calcium. Last time I tested their Micro it contained no soluble calcium just insoluble residues of magnesium carbonate and potassium carbonate as is provided by their bloom formula. I am not willing to buy any AN products just to do an anlysis on them. I will test any sample anyone sends me. It would only require sending a few ml. My opinion is simply regardless of what the analysis or what they calim or guranteeis it is not worth the retail price charged, but that applies to what they other POT nutrient manfacturers charge.
 

highpsi

Well-Known Member
What is the name of this AN three Part that contains Calcium.
Micro. It contains 5.4% soluble calcium in the form of Calcium Nitrate and Calcium Carbonate.

Link ---> http://www.hydroponicsoutlet.com/Advanced-Nutrients-Micro-1-Liter-p/anm1l.htm

the analysis gurantee it submitted to the states requiring testing stated an analysis guarantee of no soluble calcium and tested out at no soluble calcium.
Ok, so lets assume that AN are lying based on the above statement. First of all, why would they NOT add calcium to their products (it's not like it's gold or something)? Secondly, how is it that I can grow a healthy plant from seedling/clone to harvest without any deficiencies? Surely, if the product contained no soluble calcium and I'm using R/O water (which contains near zero calcium [my R/O water tests at 8ppm @ 7.0 PH]), my plants would suffer, yes?

Last time I tested their Micro it contained no soluble calcium just insoluble residues of magnesium carbonate and potassium carbonate as is provided by their bloom formula.
What testing equipment and methodology are you using to get those results? While I can appreciate the fact that you tested the product personally and found that the Micro contained no soluble calcium, it brings me back to my original question. If this was so, why doesn't everybody who uses the AN 3-part with R/O water NOT have severe calcium deficiencies in their plants?

My opinion is simply regardless of what the analysis or what they calim or guranteeis it is not worth the retail price charged, but that applies to what they other POT nutrient manfacturers charge.
Here is where we are in agreement. That's why I will be opting for the GH series on my next grow.
 

fatman7574

New Member
First of any person who knows anything about chemsitry or fertilizers should know that acalcium carbonate insoluble . Based upon that fact alone it is hard to make sence why I should naswer to anything else you might write. Secondly iI have no idea why AN cant put out a consistent product nor can I explain why their maxi bllom which is supposed to be one o part Floramicro and one part Flora bloom contains Calcium, but the analysis gurantee they themselves submitted for resitering their product does not list soluble calcium in Floranmicro nor do I know why it was not in the sample the submitted for testing nor do I know why it was not in the sample I tested. I can assure yout that it is very doubtful that three state testing labs, my university lab and my labortaory test equipment in my own home als showed no soluble calcium. For all I know they change things at will and make mistakes readily and/or often. I know that calcium carbonate if a orgainicmedia is available to the plany ts but calcium carbonate is not water soluable in inert media or aeroponics.
http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/egov/is/fert/fert2.asp?ID=5452
Here is a link to the California state test results. http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/egov/is/fert/fert2.asp?ID=5452 I really don't think they have anything to gain giving false test analysis reports nordo they gain in holding up AN registration on MicroBloom and its many other products until the gurantees stated, the gurantees on there few laebels that contain them and the test results match. The other manfacturers seem capable of accomplishing that and obtaining registrations. Maybe one day AN will be ethical and honest enough to get a few more of ther products registered. They wont accept the excuse it't proprietary information. they just wont allow it to be sold or distributed in their states. Simple enough.

I just checked Washington states Department of Agricultures lastest posting and they show Micro as containining 5.4% calcium. The AN Micro I tested about 18 months ago tested at 5.1%. I don't consider AN reliable, ethical or even near the best nutrient supplier. Of the major retailers I fing GH about the most honest marketers and their products the most consistent and reliable. They are also way to expensive but at least they are cheaper than AN. That and they don't put out all the trash formulations and supplements such as put out by AN. AN definitely does not have a good reputation amongst horticultural reasearchers in academia research labs or any state agricultural departments that I know of.
 

highpsi

Well-Known Member
First of any person who knows anything about chemsitry or fertilizers should know that acalcium carbonate insoluble.

Calcium carbonate has a solubility of 14 mg/L. So yes, it has pretty poor solubility in water. However, Calcium nitrate, which is the other calcium compound in the Micro, is listed as very soluble in water at 121 mg/L.

Based upon that fact alone it is hard to make sence why I should naswer to anything else you might write

Your arrogance is a personality trait you really should work on ridding yourself of. I was under the mistaken impression that we were engaging in rational discussion. I respected the fact that you seemed to know a thing or two about chemistry and I was simply asking how you came to your conclusions about the AN 3-part lacking calcium. It simply baffled me how my plants wouldn't be suffering from calcium deficiency using this product exclusively. However, your contemptuous answer would imply that I'm some kind of idiot because I listed calcium carbonate as one of the sources of calcium. Well, I could imply the same about you based on your atrocious spelling and grammar, but I'm not pretentious like yourself.

Thanks for the rational discourse. Unsubscribed.
 

fatman7574

New Member
Calcium carbonate has a solubility of 14 mg/L. So yes, it has pretty poor solubility in water. However, Calcium nitrate, which is the other calcium compound in the Micro, is listed as very soluble in water at 121 mg/L.

Ok, by gosh, gooly, darn that means a maximum of 14 ppm calcium carbonate in water at a pH of 7 if I could bellieve what your now writing. I have no idea where you got that number or what parameters it is based upon, but whatever you wish to believe is fine. However, calcium carbonate can not be taken up by plants in a soil less envirionment so as far as its use as a nutrient it is the same as insoluble, it is a buffer not a nutrient. Most of the compound does not become a free soluble calcium as does the calcium in say calcium Hydroxide or calcium nittrate or calcium chloride. It is a slight bit more soluble tham magnesium carbonate or calcium Sulfate.

Though you can say it is in solution it is firmly a carbonate. It is the hard in hard water. Calcium as supplied for a nutrient is not a carbonate. As far as calcium nitrate, the calcium is not a carbonate. The calcium listed as soluable calciums in nutrient formulas are not carbonates or carbonate based. The minimal solubilty of carbonates means they are referred to in the fertilizer industry as in soluble or highly insolubale. But that is a good thing because due to that they make good buffers. The definition of soluble in nutrient formaulations is not literal in the sense you so chose to argue.

In reality calcium carbonate is listed as poorly soluable in "PURE " water at 47 mg/L at normal atmospheric pressure. Nutrient water is far from pure water. There are huge numbers of ions and compounds in a water with a TDS of 1000 ppm p or more. When calcium carbonate dissolves in water it lets loose of one molecule od calcium that can be utilized by the plants, but the carbonate (the mass majority of the compond remains unusable).

Calcium carbonate has a molar weight of 84 grams of which only 40 grams is calcium. So for each gram of calcium carbonate that dissolves it releases only about 0.476 grams o calcium. So it you dissolve 47 mg/L (ppm) into water you have only added 224 ppm of calcium. And that is only possible in oure water at a pH of 7 You say it is 14 ppm of calcium carbonate. That means an addition of only 6.66 ppm of usable calcium. Now that certainly explians why as far as why when dealing with aeroponic and hydroponic nutrient formulas calcium carbonate is classified as insolble as are all other carbonates.

The only way the carbonates become any more soluable is when there is an excess of CO2 in the water and carbonic acids is formed but that does not add any Ca+ to the water. Only the CA+ is uptakeable by the plants in aeroponics and hydroponics.

It is hard to not be arrogant off the clock when I have been paid on the clock for almost 4 decades to be arrogant and authoritarian. Besides I do not write on forums as a method of making friends. As fas as my spelling, I usually do not need to worry about that as when it matters (at work) I have an administrative assistant and three department secretaries to handle my grammar and spelling.

As far as your being an idiot, that is your suggestion as to how to describe your intellegence not mine. As far as contemptousness and pretensious you do that quite well yourself child.

It is quite strange, but I needed to learn a lot about chemistry, aquatic chemsitry, water, waste water chemistry, and calcium carbonate chemistry as well as a lot of other things in the sciences, but I had only to take two basic english classes and I received A's on both of them, without any great effort I might add. However as an engineer, chemist and mathmetician I seldom worry about my spelling or grammar and at almost 5 60 years old I do not think that will change.

As far as going unsubscribed? Put me on you ignore list and I wont have to dael with your contemptousness or pretensiousness anymore.

Your arrogance is a personality trait you really should work on ridding yourself of. I was under the mistaken impression that we were engaging in rational discussion. I respected the fact that you seemed to know a thing or two about chemistry and I was simply asking how you came to your conclusions about the AN 3-part lacking calcium. It simply baffled me how my plants wouldn't be suffering from calcium deficiency using this product exclusively. However, your contemptuous answer would imply that I'm some kind of idiot because I listed calcium carbonate as one of the sources of calcium. Well, I could imply the same about you based on your atrocious spelling and grammar, but I'm not pretentious like yourself.


Thanks for the rational discourse. Unsubscribed.
Can't learn much by running everytime your toes get stepped on.
 

anhedonia

Well-Known Member
Can you explain why you say fox farm nutrients are organic? I'd like to see where you get your info because maby I could enlighten my hydro store guy about his products.
 

doc111

Well-Known Member
Can you explain why you say fox farm nutrients are organic? I'd like to see where you get your info because maby I could enlighten my hydro store guy about his products.
FF soils are organic. Big Bloom is an all organic fertilizer. Grow Big, Tiger Bloom and the solubles are not organic. They all contain organic stuff like worm castings and kelp but there fertilizers are not 100% organic except for Big Bloom. ;-)
 

ruva

Well-Known Member
Can you explain why you say fox farm nutrients are organic? I'd like to see where you get your info because maby I could enlighten my hydro store guy about his products.


"FoxFarm is mostly organic with no chemicals added. Anything that is not technically organic is at least ALL NATURAL. For example even though Rock Phosphate comes from pure mineral sources (shaved from a mined “rock”), it is still not technically “organic” because it is not carbon based (from life)."

http://www.igrowhydro.com/InfoSheets/InfoSheet-Nutrients.pdf
 

fatman7574

New Member
Here is Fox Farm's home Page on the Web. By ieeolgy they are Organic Fertilizer producers. While tj hey sliip at times to meet customers demands their main goal is to provide orgainic fertilizers.

http://www.foxfarmfertilizer.com/aboutfox.html

"crab meal, shrimp meal, seabird guano, and kelp, with low-sodium mineral plant foods " The minerals are not caid extracted or cleaned like super phosphate and such they are just ground mineral powders. The vast majoiity of their products are organic or neraly all orgainic. You need to read their adds, faqs, etc.

"We offer custom blended soil mixes, natural and organic fertilizers as well as organic-based products that Combine the Best of Technology with the Goodness of NatureTM."

Would essentially all natural mean more to you.
 

doc111

Well-Known Member
Here is Fox Farm's home Page on the Web. By ieeolgy they are Organic Fertilizer producers. While tj hey sliip at times to meet customers demands their main goal is to provide orgainic fertilizers.

http://www.foxfarmfertilizer.com/aboutfox.html
Nowhere on their site does it say that their ferilizers are organic. Like I said, only Big Bloom is 100% organic. Their soils are organic as well but Grow Big and Tiger Bloom and the solubles are not even close to organic.
 

fatman7574

New Member
Nowhere on their site does it say that their ferilizers are organic. Like I said, only Big Bloom is 100% organic. Their soils are organic as well but Grow Big and Tiger Bloom and the solubles are not even close to organic.
Dude!!!!!!!!! Get over it. To begin with saying organic officially doesn't mean squat as there are as many defintions for organic as there are snake oil products so by nutrient manafacurers. Evertime some one sneezes another product is prodi uced ab nd the term orgainic is used in a different fashion. Oraginic in one ins dustry or scientific disciplines is different than in a nother. In the fruit and vegetable industry say to be organic no chemical fertilizers, pesticides or herbicides were used in its groth. By that definition Fox Farm's nutrients are chiefly organic. In the chemsitry fiek ld if the compound has carbon hydrogen chains it is organic whether of natural origins or man made. That maens ptroleum vby definition is organic. In the biblical sense if it is of this earth it is earth organic.

Your entire argument is moot unless you provide a definition for organic upon which to base an argument. Fox Fram repeatedly says they make fertilizers and soil prepartions with orgainic based substances and mineral powders. Mineral powders by neraly evryone are considered organic. A ground up rock is about as natural as you can get. your focusing on a definition for organic apparentlly but you have not defined what you consider i is organic.

Typically in the nutrient industry if it is entirely of systrehesis and refined minerals, acids, hydroxides etc it is considered a chemical fertilizer, other wise it is typically classified as organic, regardless of waht orgainic might actually be defined as in other areas of industry or commerce.

Because of silly arguments such as yours and the misuse and abuse of the term organic and allatural for by manaafcturers and retailers the trade commission, the U.S. Department of Agriculture and most governing agencies that regulate industries etc where that term may be used have tried to control or eliminate it's used in advertising. As such it is easy to see why Fox Farm. Which solubles are you saying or arguing are not organic and again, what do you think organic means. For example is H2O organic? Is CO2 organic? Is methane gas (CH4) organic. Is ammoni organic (NH3).

1)An 'organic compound' refers to any member of a large class of chemical compounds whose molecules contain carbon, with exception of carbides, carbonates and carbon oxides.

3) Organic food raised without chemicals and processed without additives. Under standards adopted by the U.S. Agriculture Dept. (USDA) in 2000 and fully effective in 2002, synthetic fertilizers and pesticides and antibiotics may not be used in raising organic foods, and the use of irradiation, biotechnology, and sewer-sludge fertilizer is also banned. Food whose ingredients are at least 95% organic by weight may carry the "USDA ORGANIC" label; products containing only organic ingredients are labeled 100% organic.

2) the chemistry of compounds that contain both carbon and hydrogen

95% of the compounds that have isolated from natural sources or synthesized in the laboratory are organic by this definition.

Most compounds extracted from living organisms contain carbon. It is therefore tempting to identify organic chemistry as the chemistry of carbon. But this definition would include compounds such as calcium carbonate (CaCO3), as well as the elemental forms of carbon - diamond and graphite - that are clearly inorganic as they contain no hydrogen.

Basically your argument is moot as you haven't even absed your argument on a definition of organic.
 

erkelsgoo420

New Member
Check out my grow if u like. Love to have ya. Imo the very best u can do for ur plants is swithch to an. If u want a very solid lineup that will give you unforgettable results as well as TOTAL plant heal I would reccommend

Sensigrow a and b
Sensibloom a and b
Micro
B-52
Voodoo juice
Rhinoskin
Bud candy
And flush with final phase...
 
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