The Never Ending Abuse of Phosphorous (Bloom foods) to Enhance Flowering

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
Hold on, hold on, hold on...UB. If I keep feeding them MG till harvest, won't I be smoking MG fertz?? Please explain how I won't be(did i miss something??) smoking the fertz that I gave them 2weeks ago right before I harvest? I mean, I like to smoke some of this as a sample while it cures... My "Partner" got all pissy just the thought of feeding them till harvest, complaining he didn't want to smoke fertz and that I wouldn't want my wife to either. scared the shit out of my wife,whom i'm growing it for,...long story, med pat.) and i'm standing on a fence.

Believe it or not, this started a fight..................
I can believe it. Folks hold their FEELINGS strongly against their chests. Gonna pass on some wisdom that I picked up during attendance at a self improvement class, and then get back on track. It applies, reason why I'm bringing it up.

Most times in life we go about out biz allowing our feelings to dictate our behavior and attitudes. When someone says something, or you are thinking something that you're not comfortable with, that is foreign to you perhaps, ask this question, "is this a feeling or a fact?" "Facts before feelings" should be your credo.

I hope you're smoking cellulose, of which chemicals i.e. salts support/produce. When a plant uptakes fertilizers, salts, it is no longer potassium nitrate, it is broken down into ions and combined with CO2, H, etc. to form hydrocarbons, proteins, enzymes, ho moans, etc. If you have been pushing your plants with too much salts, then yes, the tissue may feel gritty, hard..... but I know of no bonafide studies that show that there might be a health issue. So, my approach is to keep the plant healthy until harvest. "Flushing" is a feel-good thing, it is based on feelings, not facts. Subjective, personal sensory opines such as using taste to justify some pot forum paradigm is baloney. A plant is not a radiator such that you open up a tap and "rinse" it out, not matter how much vendors selling snake oils i.e. Clearex want you to believe. They are using YOUR feelings to sell THEIR products. The cannabis racket is designed to focus on growers' dreams and feelings.

Christ why the hell do people get so touchy?...
Cause they feel that way. :mrgreen:
 

seasmoke

Active Member




on the right- leaf from plant 4 weeks in
on the left-plant with 1 1/2 week to go,no nutes for 2 weeks, just water.
 

redredwine

Active Member
quick Q uncle ben..... im a noob trying t decide between three flowering foods at my local store. one is 5-1-1, one is 10-30-10 and the other idk the specs but its mg bloom booster which i know alot of people hate on. its my first grow and im 33 days into flowering and i havnt used any bloom nutes so far, tho i know i should pro be doing so. any suggestion?
 

Stgeneziz

Active Member
Flushing is such a hot topic, along with 24/0 vs. 18/6, and I think some ppl are getting it all wrong when it comes to their plants. It took me 5 months to get to this point, but the less I fuss over my plants, the better they do. Ive been smokn for many years and have tasted good smoke, and harsh nasty bud. I think it has more to do with how u dry and cure ur buds, than the ferts u were using to feed the plants just MHO.
 

MostlyCrazy

New Member
On the flush I thnk it has a lot to do with how heavy you use the nutes. I nute heavy, flush for a week and trim it up tight and I can smoke my bud when it's barely dry. Don't get me wrong, it still taste green but it's not hacking green.
 

alexuk

Member
quick Q uncle ben..... im a noob trying t decide between three flowering foods at my local store. one is 5-1-1, one is 10-30-10 and the other idk the specs but its mg bloom booster which i know alot of people hate on. its my first grow and im 33 days into flowering and i havnt used any bloom nutes so far, tho i know i should pro be doing so. any suggestion?
i think the 10-30-10 would be best as plants dont need as much N in blooming and they do in veg but need more P
 

redredwine

Active Member
i think the 10-30-10 would be best as plants dont need as much N in blooming and they do in veg but need more P
thats what i thought but i have heard from a lot of people on here to use Alaskan fish emulsion which is 5-1-1 and they say it works very well
 

Roseman

Elite Rolling Society
Flushing?

In the book GROW GREAT MARIJUANA by Logan Edward, he says if you manicure the buds very closely, and remove every leaf, then there is no need to Flush, because the mineral-fertilizer-nutrient taste is not stored in the pistals, or calyxes or buds or flowers, but only in the leaves.

I stand by I did flush my first grow and not the next 6 grows and I can not tell any differencce. I now do not ever flush, I do manicure very close and I never get any mineral-fertilizer taste in my buds.
 

400Whps

Active Member
Flushing?

In the book GROW GREAT MARIJUANA by Logan Edward, he says if you manicure the buds very closely, and remove every leaf, then there is no need to Flush, because the mineral-fertilizer-nutrient taste is not stored in the pistals, or calyxes or buds or flowers, but only in the leaves.

I stand by I did flush my first grow and not the next 6 grows and I can not tell any differencce. I now do not ever flush, I do manicure very close and I never get any mineral-fertilizer taste in my buds.
why i tell people not to smoke their shake! make hash or bud butter it will go alot further.
Ill still flush just to be safe and save on nutes, i dont need a healthy green plant on chop day, id preffer flushing for a week and then depriving of water the last week. this makes trimming/drying/curing faster. btw i was taught that by an old friend whose grown for years in BC Canada and am very happy to hear it being used.unfourtunatly he doesnt grow anymore.i hate when talented growers have to stop,waste of talent!
everyone has their ways
 

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member




on the right- leaf from plant 4 weeks in
on the left-plant with 1 1/2 week to go,no nutes for 2 weeks, just water.
Well, what else would you expect? It's just another case of leaf necrosis.

quick Q uncle ben..... im a noob trying t decide between three flowering foods at my local store. one is 5-1-1, one is 10-30-10 and the other idk the specs but its mg bloom booster which i know alot of people hate on. its my first grow and im 33 days into flowering and i havnt used any bloom nutes so far, tho i know i should pro be doing so. any suggestion?

For starts, 5-1-1 is not a bloom food. Get a handle on plant nutrition and you won't have to ask such questions.

You use whatever formula keeps the leaves green and healthy. If a 3-9-6 will do it, fine, use it.

UB
 

seasmoke

Active Member
UB, I fed them 2x now and I can see improvements. The leaves are returnig to green and are much softer now. The entire plants are standing to attention. Many thanks.
 

redredwine

Active Member
For starts, 5-1-1 is not a bloom food. Get a handle on plant nutrition and you won't have to ask such questions.

You use whatever formula keeps the leaves green and healthy. If a 3-9-6 will do it, fine, use it.

UB[/QUOTE]

thats what i thought, i know you want a good balance with a higher p count, but everytime i postted on here asking for a good bloom food, some one would recomend alaskan fish emulsion, which is 5-1-1
 

seasmoke

Active Member
The MG Bloom booster is 15-30-15. I use it, have been using it. I just don't use it full strength....Who made3 the 10-30-10?
 

Roseman

Elite Rolling Society
Nitrogen in Flowering

I flowered for a few weeks on high phosperous Bloom Nutes only, and everyday, I came home and picked up 3 or 5 leaves from each plant, that had yellowed and fell off. All of them came from the lower 1/3 of the plant. I had a large shoe box and a half full of dried dead leaves from 9 plants, although two plants were seriously small runts..


After a few weeks, I started adding a very fractional part of VEG nutes high in nitrogen to my Flowering Nutes. I started as an experiment on one of three reservoirs, and after 4 or 5 days, I add N to the other two tanks. Since the 2nd day of adding the very slightest amount of Nitrogen, NOT ONE leaf yellowed and died off.
I also saw extra growth on my buds too. The plants seemed healthier and happier and more green and lush, they had a bigger thirst or appetite for water too, and I will always add a very slight amount of extra Nitrogen to my Flowering Cycle in every grow I do in the future.

BUT to be 100% honest and tell you everything I have observed,

on the other side of the coin,

I am contemplating and thinking that it might be natural, or normal, or even beneficial for the lower third of the plant to lose those leaves so that LIGHT can penetrate deeper into the plant. My plants are so thick in leaves, well, I've never seen anything like it. A half inch from the bottom of each plant's stump or trunk are buds and leaves galore, thicker than I could imagine. The foilage is much much thicker than on any plant I have ever seen.
 

Roseman

Elite Rolling Society
I did not write this, but I sure like it.


Contributed by: vaaran
Submitted: November 15th, 2004

Pre harvest flushing is a controversial topic. Flushing is supposed to improve taste of the final bud by either giving only pure water, clearing solutions or extensive flushing for the last 7-14 days of flowering. While many growers claim a positive effect, others deny any positive influence or even suggest reduced yield and quality.

The theory of pre harvest flushing is to remove nutrients from the grow medium/root zone. A lack of nutrients creates a deficiency, forcing the plant to translocate and use up its internal nutrient compounds.

Nutrient fundamentals and uptake:

The nutrient uptake process is explained in this faq.

A good read about plant nutrition can be found here.

Until recently it was common thought that all nutrients are absorbed by plant roots as ions of mineral elements. However in newer studies more and more evidence emerged that additionally plant roots are capable of taking up complex organic molecules like amino acids directly thus bypassing the mineralization process.

The major nutrient uptake processes are:

1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.

2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.

http://www.biol.sc.edu/courses/bio102/f99-3637.html

http://www.hort.wisc.edu/cran/Publications/2001 Proceedings/min_nutr.pdf

The claim only ‘chemical’ ferted plants need to be flushed should be taken with a grain of salt. Organic and synthetic ferted plants take up mineral ions alike, probably to a different degree though. Many influences play key roles in the taste and flavor of the final bud, like the nutrition balance and strength throughout the entire life cycle of the plant, the drying and curing process and other environmental conditions.

3) Active transport mechanism of organic molecules into root hairs via endocytosis.

http://acd.ucar.edu/~eholland/encyc6.html

Here is a simplified overview of nutrient functions:

Nitrogen is needed to build chlorophyll, amino acids, and proteins. Phosphorus is necessary for photosynthesis and other growth processes. Potassium is utilized to form sugar and starch and to activate enzymes. Magnesium also plays a role in activating enzymes and is part of chlorophyll. Calcium is used during cell growth and division and is part of the cell wall. Sulfur is part of amino acids and proteins.

Plants also require trace elements, which include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, sodium, zinc, molybdenum, nickel, cobalt, and silicon.

Copper, iron, and manganese are used in photosynthesis. Molybdenum, nickel, and cobalt are necessary for the movement of nitrogen in the plant. Boron is important for reproduction, while chlorine stimulates root growth and development. Sodium benefits the movement of water within the plant and zinc is neeeded for enzymes and used in auxins (organic plant hormones). Finally, silicon helps to build tough cell walls for better heat and drought tolerance.

http://www.sidwell.edu

You can get an idea from this how closely all the essential elements are involved in the many metabolic processes within the plant, often relying on each other.

Nutrient movement and mobility inside the plant:

Besides endocytosis, there are two major pathways inside the plant, the xylem and the phloem. When water and minerals are absorbed by plant roots, these substances must be transported up to the plant's stems and leaves for photosynthesis and further metabolic processes. This upward transport happens in the xylem. While the xylem is able to transport organic compounds, the phloem is much more adapted to do so.

The organic compounds thus originating in the leaves have to be moved throughout the plant, upwards and downwards, to where they are needed. This transport happens in the phloem. Compounds that are moving through the phloem are mostly:
Sugars as sugary saps, organic nitrogen compounds (amino acids and amides, ureides and legumes), hormones and proteins.

http://www.sirinet.net

Not all nutrient compounds are moveable within the plant.

1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.

2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.

http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu

Storage organelles:

Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though.

http://jeb.biologists.org.pdf

Translocation:

Now that the basics are explained, we can take a look at the translocation process. It should be already clear that only mobile elements can be translocated through the phloem. Immobile elements cant be translocated and are not more available to the plant for further metabolic processes and new plant growth.

Since flushing (in theory) induces a nutrient deficiency in the rootzone, the translocation process aids in the plants survival. Translocation is transportation of assimilates through the phloem from source (a net exporter of assimilate) to sink (a net importer of assimilate). Sources are mostly mature fan leaves and sinks are mostly apical meristems, lateral meristem, fruit, seed and developing leaves etc.

You can see this by the yellowing and later dying of the mature fan leaves from the second day on after flushing started. Developing leaves, bud leaves and calyxes don’t serve as sources, they are sinks. Changes in those plant parts are due to the deficient immobile elements which start to indicate on new growth first.

Unfortunately, several metabolic processes are unable to take place anymore since other elements needed are no longer available (the immobile ones). This includes processes where nitrogen and phosphorus, which have likely the most impact on taste, are involved.

For example nitrogen: usually plants use nitrogen to form plant proteins. Enzyme systems rapidly reduce nitrate-N (NO3-) to compounds that are used to build amino-nitrogen which is the basis for amino acids. Amino acids are building blocks for proteins, most of them are plant enzymes responsible for all the chemical changes important for plant growth.

Sulfur and calcium among others have major roles in production and activating of proteins, thereby decreasing nitrate within the plant. Excess nitrate within the plant may result from unbalanced nutrition rather than an excess of nitrogen.

http://muextension.missouri.edu

Summary:

Preharvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are loosing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.

The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn’t be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn’t sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with preharvest flushing.

Drying and curing (when done right) on the other hand have proved (In many studies) to have a major impact on taste and flavour, by breaking down chlorophylls and converting starches into sugars. Most attributes blamed on unflushed buds may be the result of unbalanced nutrition and/or overfert and unproper drying/curing.
 

owl

Active Member
holy cock and balls; i figure that i have a good understanding on growing cannabis and then i see a thread like this.

to clarify, it is suggested to avoid the yellowing of the leaves and avoid "pre-harvest" flushing?

i have read so many threads and so many people flushing their plants out and allowing the yellowing of leaves.

now that i read this thread, it makes sense, but damn...

i did all my "studying" (and still "study") in the Cannabis Culture message board and just now started exploring this message board - i'm fucking impressed
 

Stgeneziz

Active Member
If thinkng is good, how come it always gets me into trouble?! I'm the same way roseman, it really helps with my insomnia. Zzz Zzz
 
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