Liberals Hate Success

Heads Up

Well-Known Member
Heads up ...

Rick is right ... your employer is breaking the law. As an independent contractor, your employer cannot require you to do anything. By this I mean, require you to attend meetings, what time to show up for work, what time to leave work or set your hours. You should turn this son-of-a-bitch in to the proper authorities. I'm sure the IRS would love to know his game. And by the way ... if there are monies owed to the IRS, you may be elgible for a 10% reward of all monies recovered. Same applies to the State Franchise Tax Board.
Rob is not saying a darn thing I have not heard a thousand times. I could repeat the mantra in my sleep. Rob, you are aware of the current employment situation in the country, yes?

The guy is a retired cop. His biggest work, working on his golf swing. Believe me if the job market was better, I would have been gone last year. I'm not a fool. I'm not unaware of how things work in the real world. You have your beliefs and I have mine. What is the guy investing 100k in an auto place really risking? Is a hundred grand reason enough for the guy doing the work to be enslaved to that hundred grand for eternity? Like I said, money makes money. Some have more than they will ever need and some will never have enough to live with dignity in this great country of ours. It's just one of those facts of life that I don't see changing.
 

CrackerJax

New Member
I started out with 800 dollars. everything else was my ideas and the banks willingness to finance those ideas.....

See how that works?

It's up to you, no one else. Life is what YOU make it. No excuses.
 

c5rftw

Well-Known Member
I started out with 800 dollars. everything else was my ideas and the banks willingness to finance those ideas.....

See how that works?

It's up to you, no one else. Life is what YOU make it. No excuses.
yah, but what if i decide that im worthless, shouldn't i get a bailout? oh yah, they already get one...
 

CrackerJax

New Member
Yes, and if you pay ur mortgage off, ur a sucker!

If you pay ur taxes, ur a sucker!

If U don't work for the federal govt., ur a sucker!
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Rob Roy. Ok then, how's this, he's cheating us. What is it with you guys who seem so dead set to make government the bad guy in all of this? I'm pretty sure you enjoy having roads, firefighters, police, parks and a host of other things that government does. Without government we would have anarchy. This is no longer 1786, whatever the founding fathers envisioned, much does not apply in today's society. Do you actually believe that one day they envisioned three hundred million people in america? Their america didn't even go west of the mississippi river. Folks like you try your best to apply yesteryears standards to today using the constitution as your weapon.

For me what it comes down to, folks like you whatever you're saying, to me it sounds like, I'm out for myself and I don't care about my fellow citizens. Sorry if that is an incorrect assessment, but that's all it sounds like to me.
He's cheating you? I'd say to cheat a person involves deceit. Isn't your deal with your employer by a mutual agreement between him and you?
Other than taking some of your money and trying to take your bosses money what value does government add to your relationship and why are they necessary?

Me making government the bad guy? They don't need any help to be bad guys. But I am guilty as charged for taking the opportunity to be hating on the useless bastards.

Enjoying roads, Police fire etc. ?
Roads are a tough one but user fees such as fuel taxes or privatization can amply pay for this.
Police? The other day I was at a superior court. 102 people were being arraigned, by the estimate of a public defender that I spoke to at least 60% were there for "victimless crimes" (drugs). So I'm happy with alot fewer cops and modifying some laws. You?

Firemen? Volunteer departments work

Parks? The trees and forest exist without government. They didn't make the natural scenery did they?

Without gvernment we would have anarchy? No. with LESS government we would have MORE freedom. Governments sole purpose is to control
regulate and restrict when they're not busy taking your money or killing people.

Folks like me applying yesterdays standards? Sorry, I disagree with that, freedom never goes out of style.

Out for myself? The only thing I can say is I believe nobody has a right to MAKE another peaceful person do anything. Apparently you believe government does. I am responsible for me, you are responsible for you. That doesn't mean you cannot help anther person, it just means government doesn't have to act as a vampire like intermediary.
You, like I, are always free to be charitable. I practice charity and encourage it in others. Peace.
 

JustAnotherFriedDay

Well-Known Member
I never said Bill Gates would be forced to give away his money. That should never happen. He's given away billions to charity.

Thank you for the clarification.

I just think that some people make too much for the work that they do and others make too little for what they do.

Fair enough.

Business owners would be better off paying their employees a percentage of revenue based off their performance and job title, especially if the owners net worth exceeds that of their entire staff put together.

How would business owners be better off having an outside agent determining their wage structure? If that happened would they still really "own" the company if somebody else made their decisions?

America would be much better off if minimum wage was a % of company revenue...or for employees that get paid directly from the client a % should go to them...50% is a pretty solid number. maybe 60-70 for the veterans at the company.

Minimum wage as a percentage of revenue? So if the company makes more money, the employees make more money?
What happens if the company loses money? Do the employees then all pitch in and bail out the owner?
by no means should they be forced to do this. im just saying the world would be a better place if owners did this and weren't so greedy with money. and yes, if the company is doing bad, the wage would go down accordingly....but it would never reach as low as minimum wage is right now, not even close. they wouldn't have to bail out the owner by any means. the whole company would take a loss, not just the owners profit. just like the whole company would gain a lot of money when the company does well. everyone profits and loses.

my father runs a small business and most of the employees profit 50% of what they make in the day. some of the more dedicated earn a higher %.

its approaching 30 years of being open and has been thriving the entire time. i am proud of him for turning absolutely nothing into something. he had more money than his parents by the time I was born. he dropped out of college that he got into on free ride on a basketball scholarship...never got a 4 year degree and made himself into something.

kind of rambled there but im just saying that it can be done and you can be a fair business owner and still live a financially secure life. it's the employees who work for greedy owners who have a hard time.plus being paid well increases motivation and effort, and even encourages positive moods, knowing your boss isn't an asshole.

so its a win-win deal.
 

JustAnotherFriedDay

Well-Known Member
Heads up ...

Rick is right ... your employer is breaking the law. As an independent contractor, your employer cannot require you to do anything. By this I mean, require you to attend meetings, what time to show up for work, what time to leave work or set your hours. You should turn this son-of-a-bitch in to the proper authorities. I'm sure the IRS would love to know his game. And by the way ... if there are monies owed to the IRS, you may be elgible for a 10% reward of all monies recovered. Same applies to the State Franchise Tax Board.
i'd hop on that quick

of course..he would lose his job.
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
First, the only thing the employer is doing wrong is not paying matching SOS and Medicaid taxes, and not carrying workman's comp insurance. But if you get hurt he has to pay anyway or you can sue. Aside from that, he is doing you a favor. You can set up a business and pay a lot less taxes than you would pay otherwise - you just need to learn how.

As far as what is "fair" consider this. When someone opens a business they are taking a great many risks. Not only are they risking capital, they are also risking opportunity costs and often living on a shoe string budget for years until the business takes off. Suppose a guy spends 5 years building a business - if that business fails, you go look for another job while he has lost 5 years of his life during which he could have been pursuing other things.

But the most important thing in business is what each person brings to the table, not how hard they work - that is how fairness is determined. Suppose a guy is a top notch tattoo artist and is capable of bringing in 300K a year. He opens a business investing say 20K in equipment and he leases space for 2K per month on a 60 month lease. Now he is into it for 140K and he is the man with the talent. Now he hires you to answer the phones and clean up the shop and he pays $9 per hour for this. Are you saying that if he is bringing in 300k a year he is obligated to pay you $25 per hour so things will be "fair"?

All you offer is the ability to do what he hired you for which is pretty inconsequential in the scheme of the business - that is all the value you produce and all he figures on paying. So why, when he is 98% responsible for the money coming in should you receive a level of compensation that is disproportionate to what you produce?

My shop guy works much harder than me, but he is responsible for far less of the money brought into the business. In fact, if we were to calculate his pay based on his ability to produce vs mine, he actually makes more money than I do. in other words, although he makes about 40% of what I make, his value is about 10% of mine. So really, I am the one getting screwed. I look at this as one more way that I am investing in my company. I figure that in the future, my income will double while his will not - then things will be more fair to me.

If you want to bring some reality into this thread, here it is. You have to understand just how much additional value comes from the ability to start a business and make it successful - it is so much more than just doing back work. Succeeding in business requires not only hard work but also natural talent, motivation, a mind for business and often a certain expertise among many other things. This is worth so much more than just sweat and time.
 

JustAnotherFriedDay

Well-Known Member
Yes, Rick, but EVERYONE should be making more than 350 dollars a week if they work 40 hours. A lot more.

Yes, the startup costs and risks of business are huge. No business owner should be obligated to pay their employees more. However, most businesses fail on account of the owner. Most people hate their job, if not at least dislike it. A large majority of that is due to the relationship they have with their boss. Most bosses are dicks.

Here's one of the most important tips to running a successful business:

Work harder than everyone else, but give everyone else the credit.

Appreciation builds motivation and work ethic and condemnation does not. It actually creates negative tension between the people. The person feels less motivated to be working for such an asshole.
 

CrackerJax

New Member
Why not a thousand a week? Why not 10 thousand?

Want to give everyone 10000 dollars? Then give everyone a million and then the money will only be worth 10000. :wink:

What the market will bear. Never deviate from that axiom.
 

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
why not a thousand a week? people can live VERY securely on a thousand a week.
Let's say for the sake of the argument that the government issues an edict saying that everybody is entitled to $25 an hour. That would be $1000 for a 40 hour week. That's $52,000 annually.

What do you think would happen?

How much would child care cost?
How much would a Big Mac cost?
How much would a hotel room cost?
A haircut?
An oil change?
A taxi?

Suddenly everything, especially services, that people are accustomed to paying a reasonable price for will cost a helluva lot more.

Convenience stores would suddenly not be so convenient. Just about every lawn care business will fold. Auto detailing and car washes will close down nationwide. Virtually all housekeepers will lose their jobs. Jobs that people normally pay someone else to do will either go undone, or they will hire an illegal alien to do it for little to nothing.

Furthermore, everybody who makes $52,000 now would be awfully pissed off. Talk about destroying the middle class. They went from making a halfway decent wage to minimum wage overnight.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Yes, Rick, but EVERYONE should be making more than 350 dollars a week if they work 40 hours. A lot more.

Yes, the startup costs and risks of business are huge. No business owner should be obligated to pay their employees more. However, most businesses fail on account of the owner. Most people hate their job, if not at least dislike it. A large majority of that is due to the relationship they have with their boss. Most bosses are dicks.

Here's one of the most important tips to running a successful business:

Work harder than everyone else, but give everyone else the credit.

Appreciation builds motivation and work ethic and condemnation does not. It actually creates negative tension between the people. The person feels less motivated to be working for such an asshole.
I am with rick on most what he said the last 4 pages (just some of the garbage news coming out about the bank collapse, but pretty much everything else is on point).

I would say that you are describing a very nice work envirment for sure. But that doesn't get people to work harder unless maybe their bosses ass was in the fire and they wanted to pull together and help them out. But if they office was ran on economic greed it may not have been on that path in the first place with the proper motivation.

Look at Rick's example of a tattoo shop. He is absolutely right, the main artist that could make $300k a year in someone elses shop that sets up his own is missing out on 300k. A penny less than that amount being made from starting his own company means that he should just close up (meaning that the other guy is jobless) and work for someone else. Think of all the less stress that would be there if he could make about the same amount and not worry about all the crap that comes with your own business.

People may go into business to be their own boss and there is a lot of worth in that, but that is the benefit.

And being nice to an employee is great, but if you had a tiered salary that had incentive bonuses
Like say
0-50 tatoos $9 an hour
50-100 tats $9/hour + 1%
100-200 tats $9/hour +3%

The other tattoo artist would me much more incline to turn and burn (maybe some sort of customer happiness clause in the pay so that they don't just fuck up the work) means more revenue for the business. Also it would incentivize the other guy to not scoop work on the side and keep business off the books to scrape off the top.

Greed is good. That person that is greedy and works his/her ass off to get to make a million a year helps society far more than they never tried. Society is saying that their services are worth that much money, if they didn't then they wouldn't demand that much money.


Besides we are hardlined with having greed and envy, may as well make it work for us by understanding why it is good.


ps. I did not read the first 10 pages so not sure how it got here, but this has nothing to do with liberal or conservative, it is a human thing. We all love success. It is rediculous to think otherwise.
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
Yes, Rick, but EVERYONE should be making more than 350 dollars a week if they work 40 hours. A lot more.

Yes, the startup costs and risks of business are huge. No business owner should be obligated to pay their employees more. However, most businesses fail on account of the owner. Most people hate their job, if not at least dislike it. A large majority of that is due to the relationship they have with their boss. Most bosses are dicks.

Here's one of the most important tips to running a successful business:

Work harder than everyone else, but give everyone else the credit.

Appreciation builds motivation and work ethic and condemnation does not. It actually creates negative tension between the people. The person feels less motivated to be working for such an asshole.
You see, this is one of the largest differences between the Left and the Right. Your post demonstrates that although your heart is in the right place, you really don't understand the economic facts of business.

First, Crackerjax did an excellent job of explaining the financial reality of the situation - I find no need to elaborate except to say that each employee is worth a given amount to an employer. this is no different than investing in equipment or purchasing professional services. It wouldn't make sense for a 300K per year business to hire an in house lawyer at 150K per year to enforce $1,000 contracts. But is you are GM and involved in hundreds of million dollar law suits you might want to employ several. Hiring a truck driver is no different. Getting your stuff delivered is worth $9 per hour and no more. And given that many people would drive a truck around for this wage, it becomes an issue of supply and demand.

But, there is something else you are missing. Speaking from experience, most lower wage employees earn lower wages for a reason. They may have poor attendance, be unreliable, untrustworthy, have problems with authority, be lazy, be uncontentious or have other attitude problems.

We have tried paying such people a good wage thinking this might encourage them to improve - we were wrong. We learned that many lower wage employees simply do not change. We also learned that treating employees too good can be destructive to your business. Employees tend to be most productive when they earn a wage commensurate with what they do and work in a structured environment. Paying them too much will only encourage them to not show up for work when they don't need the money. And when that pay is undeserved, they develop a sense of entitlement and have no incentive to become better employees.

Also, employers need to consider what message this sends to the employees that do bust their ass for the raise. If Johnny on the spot and Joe hangover are paid the same wage for vastly different performance, what message does that send to the better producers?

The way employees market themselves is also a huge part of what determines their wage. If my business were to fold, do you think I would market myself as willing to drive a truck for $9 per hour or do you think I would demand a near six figure wage? How do you think a guy reading my resume is going to perceive me - as a guy who comes to work hung over and sleeps on the job or as someone they can depend on to run their business as if it were my own?

Providing incentive for your employees to do better is an art form and the ability to do it well is the sign of a great businessmen. But interviewing employees and knowing which dogs are going to hunt is also a sign of a great businessman, as is knowing what and how much value you can expect from each employee. Wages are an expense just like utilities, cost of goods sold or auto expenses.

Although it might sound inhumane to look at another persons labor in the same context as the maintenance cost of a piece of equipment, the fact is, numbers don't have feelings and in the end if the numbers are not there nobody has a job.
 

JustAnotherFriedDay

Well-Known Member
Again with the libs. Stop calling em libs. Were you directing that at me? I'm not what you would call a liberal or what I would call far left. But because on one issue I take a more PC "liberal" stand on paying employees well when business is THRIVING instead of stockpiling money you don't need (this is simply a matter of ones own character, and if your a business owner you are free to do what you want with your money. just know your character is flawed if you know you are under paying your employees). Offering higher percentages of what they make for the company as profit for them is also incentive to take on more work or improve your mood at work. When working with clients, mood and attitude is everything. Most people come into work with a shitty ass mood. This can be related to the boss or life. However, if the employee thinks there boss is very fair and even friendly toward them (takes them on business/social trips to NY etc, joking around and keeping spirits up in the midst of constant work) they are much more likely to be in a positive mood as the day progresses.

You guys seem to think I'm saying the government should force higher wages. I'm just saying if you really want business to thrive, give more credit to the Production Capability of your company (your employees) and less to yourself. Even as a boss, you should never feel more entitled than your employees. Maybe to decisions involving the company, but that's it.
 

JustAnotherFriedDay

Well-Known Member
I really feel as if people have no understanding of the definition liberal and conservative. this is for you guys who interchange them with left/right

liberal - open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values

conservative - holding to traditional attitudes and values and cautious about change or innovation, typically in relation to politics or religion.

people don't seem to understand these terms are used on an issue by issue basis. they shouldn't be used to categorize someones entire being or belief system.
 
P

PadawanBater

Guest
I really feel as if people have no understanding of the definition liberal and conservative. this is for you guys who interchange them with left/right

liberal - open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values

conservative - holding to traditional attitudes and values and cautious about change or innovation, typically in relation to politics or religion.

people don't seem to understand these terms are used on an issue by issue basis. they shouldn't be used to categorize someones entire being or belief system.

Exactly! All of these dopes use "Liberal" as some sort of negative connotation just because they heard Coulter or OReilly say it towards someone they oppose on Fox News...
 

JustAnotherFriedDay

Well-Known Member
Exactly! All of these dopes use "Liberal" as some sort of negative connotation just because they heard Coulter or OReilly say it towards someone they oppose on Fox News...
mhmmmm. liberal/conservative is just the stance you take on issues. they cant be used to completely categorize someones ideology.

if someone is mostly liberal on political ideals then they are far left. if a person is far left they are blind to success by those who came before us.

if someone is mostly conservative on political ideals then they are far right. if a person is far right then they are blind to failures by those who came before us.

the middle is RIGHT where you want to be...its called using good judgment on a case by case basis.

What does a perfect balance of intuition and conscience and education and experience get us? Perfect wisdom.

both sides are right on at least one matter.

in a perfect world, we'd all be liberal on issues that need work and conservative on what already works.

so yes, if you feel the need to categorize someones political ideals, use far right and far left.
 

JustAnotherFriedDay

Well-Known Member
if 1 is far left and 10 is far right than I'm a 7...just to give you an idea of how i could be categorized politically. however, to categorize someone at all is just too damn vague...theres always exceptions
 
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