The Official Canna Coco & Nutrients Thread

Don Gin and Ton

Well-Known Member
hmmm, well i personally have never used more than 12-13 ml per US gallon and that has burned some of the strains i have tried... BUT you could be right... it could be a deficiency and not a overdose, but im thinking at 15ml per gal. you shouldnt be seeing any deficiencies unless your PH is just way off and you get nute lockout.

ja man you've got more knowledge on this than me fella, i generally crank my nutes as high as i can take them without burn at the very top end of my feed about 8-9 weeks i might get a slight bit of tip burn on the fans

maybe the stra9ins i run just like a heavy feed?! idk
 

Don Gin and Ton

Well-Known Member
hmmm, well i personally have never used more than 12-13 ml per US gallon and that has burned some of the strains i have tried... BUT you could be right... it could be a deficiency and not a overdose, but im thinking at 15ml per gal. you shouldnt be seeing any deficiencies unless your PH is just way off and you get nute lockout.

ja man you've got more knowledge on this than me fella, i generally crank my nutes as high as i can take them without burn at the very top end of my feed about 8-9 weeks i might get a slight bit of tip burn on the fans

maybe the strains i run just like a heavy feed?! idk
 

justiceman

Active Member
Hey guys I have heard and read that the air to water ratio is about 70% water to 30% air witch is pretty good.

I was just wondering whether it's advisable to mix perlite in Canna coco because I have heard that your not supposed to mix anything with Canna coco specifically but I don't understand why. Wouldn't the only downfall be that you would have to water more frequently if you did for instance a 60%coco to 40% perlite mix?
 

jberry

Well-Known Member
you can mix 10-25% in without problems.... i think if you start adding more it may affect the buffers and the way the nutrients are designed for coco? idk but i have added coco/perlite 50/50 and i had a few minor issues with ph and some lock out... but i know if you were set on doing it you could fine tune your nutes and ph to make it work.

for me its just not worth the hassle and pure coco has workes fine for me....

maybe you could do a few plants of each to see if you can tell any difference.... i couldnt really tell aqny difference at all in my side by side tests.
 

laceygirl

Well-Known Member
Hi just a quick pic of the nutrients that I like to use... My medium is small rockwool cubes then transplanting into hydroton...

The only products missing as I have used them all and recycled the bottles are Cannaboost and Cannazym...

I get great results from these products and they are on the expensive side, but hey it works for me. :lol: I don't have to think about it, they just deliver the goods... :bigjoint:
 

jberry

Well-Known Member
CANNA proudly announces its collaboration with
the University of Cal Poly in Pomona, California.
Cal Poly is the best known polytechnic university of
the USA is and has an incredible status all around
North America. Mr. Terry Fujimoto, a professor in
Horticulture/Plant & Soil Science at the university is
in close contact with CANNA to work on multiple
opportunities for both parties.
For years CANNA has been advising the University
with its horticultural and hydroponical expertise.
“We have greatly appreciated CANNA’s involvement
in the development of our hydro systems,
professor Fujimoto says.” Since 1 year Cal Poly is using
CANNA nutrients for their greenhouses at the
university too. “Our results have been positive as
the nutrients are easy to use, clean and uncomplicated.
When switching to CANNA, our lettuce
crop showed signs of improved quality especially in
the way of eliminating calcium deficiencies which
were previously expressed on the newer emerged
leaves in the centers of the lettuce heads.”
Interested people out of profession or general curiosity
can apply for a free guided tour at Cal Poly
during which the greenhouses are always the biggest
hit. It is the direct proof of all the theory that
has been explained in the first part of the tour. The
tour groups are very diverse and differ from students
all over the USA to secretaries of agriculture
and senators. This winter Cal Poly and CANNA will
be starting field tests in which both parties will work
towards the ultimate feed chart for the hothouse
cucumber. Fujimoto: “It could not have come at
a better time as we are cleaning out the old crop
and we could design this as a good research study
for one of my graduate students. We are looking
forward to it as it helps both parties involved in the
way of providing data on crop yields, nutrient performance,
research information and production/
sales of product.”
The hothouse cucumber project will not be a stand
alone project. We will be working on many more
opportunities of collaboration between CANNA
and the Cal Poly University. One being The pioneer
and global market leader in the world of intensive
(indoor) growing, the other being the established
polytechnic university in the USA.
Professor Fujimoto is convinced: “Your experience
in the field has greatly helped us in the way of developing
schedules, growing methods and use of
specific varieties that perform best under our growing
conditions. We look forward to ongoing collaboration
with CANNA for years to come in the
way of continued research and even workshops
for growers.”
We will keep you updated on the progress of this
project and more combined CANNA & Cal Poly
projects.
 

RockstarEnergy

Well-Known Member
How we doin jberry?? its been a while haha. i just transplanted into a bigger pot and wanna switch to 12/12. should i wait a few days to switch and let the roots work into the new coco?
 

jberry

Well-Known Member
im doing alright but im finally getting kinda sick of RIU, but still hanging for now... I still like to help and learn, but there are some major bags of douche on here.\

Anyhoo, waiting a few days to get the roots more established would be ideal but i have done it both ways...I have noticed that if you dont veg for a little longer after "potting up" than your plants usually wont stretch quite as much when u switch to 12/12 and obviously the root system may be slightly smaller, but the difference is mainly in the stretch the plant goes through during the first 3 weeks of bloom.
 

laceygirl

Well-Known Member
im doing alright but im finally getting kinda sick of RIU, but still hanging for now... I still like to help and learn, but there are some major bags of douche on here.\

You said it, but unfortunately they are on every website... You can't get away from them....

Hope you don't decide to go anywhere, you info is very helpful....

Laceygirl...;-)
 

jberry

Well-Known Member
To start, the physical characteristics of coco is unique in
that it changes it’s physical and chemical characteristics
dramatically over time. Green or newly harvested
mulch is actually the dust (and broken fibers) generated
by removing the fibers from the husk of a coconut. This
is unusable at this point. After several months of decomposition,
it begins to take on some usable characteristics
of holding moisture better, the release of Potassium and
other salts slows to a reasonable level, and the structure
remains intact. There is a fairly short period from this point
that the coco peat is usable in container plant production.
Ideally, the coco peat has to go further to actually
work with the plant correctly, but by then much of the
structure is lost and the usable time in is severely shortened.

While later stages of coco degradation are very
acceptable as a soil amendment, it is not suitable for
directly growing in. Structural problems are, however, a
small part of the issue.
In addition, the availability
of the nutrients present
is affected on a changing
scale along with continuing
decomposition. Coconut
Palms have the rare ability
to utilize seawater solution as
its source of water. Seawater
has a high EC, or Electrical
Conductivity, which is a measure of how concentrated
the salt level is. Plant cells do not exist in this range but
much lower. For water to move into the roots of a plant,
it has to overcome the Osmotic Potential of the membranes
the water molecules pass.

In typical soils and container mixes, fertilized at
recommended levels, the EC of the root zone moisture
(which includes nutrients [salts]) is lower than the internal
EC of the root cells, allowing water to move, or diffuse,
across the barrier membranes. As root zone EC reaches
EC levels of the plant, water movement slows and eventually
halts. Unfortunately, it does not stop here and is capable
of moving the other way. In this manner, most ‘salt
burn’ situations arise, but not all.

Additionally, the process of
harvesting the fibers also increase EC levels because
the coconut husks are first soaked in seawater (the most
abundant water supply close to where coconuts grow),
which imparts its salts into all the pores of the coconut
material. When decomposition occurs, these salts come
out in very high amounts, especially Potassium, the most
prevalent element found as an ion (salt).
All usable nutrients become available to the plants internal
processes as ions, or charged atoms or functional
groups like nitrate. Ions affect each other, in fact, in the
plants processes they are combined in controlled fashion.
In a solution with other ions, and no controls, they still combine or associate with other ions of opposite
charge. They also affect the availability of each
other as similar charges. This is known as antagonisms,
where one element in a large amount will
decrease availability of another where it is in a
smaller amount. In this case as the concentration
of Potassium increases, the availability of both Calcium
and Magnesium decreases. It is more commonly
known as locking out. When combined
with the effects of pH and temperature, precipitation
of these salts can occur. The effect works the
other way when Calcium increases, potassium
availability decreases. Additionally, Potassium
has the ability to almost move at will throughout a
plant, it is mostly un-regulated; a characteristic all
plants have adapted by harnessing these ions to
do work as they move around.

This is all well and good, but how does that affect
the use of coconut peat/ mulch with plants? As
the coco decomposes, it ‘gives off’ salts that increase
the EC of the medium which will result in
burning and imbalances in Calcium/ Magnesium
and Potassium balances or ratios; the ‘greener’
the coco, the worse the problem. About the time
this ‘give off’ slows enough to really grow a crop in,
the structure has the characteristics of muck peat
and has to have amendments like perlite, sand,
pebbles or other large particles added to it to give
the medium air. Also, the state of decomposition is
at its highest, so what is left will not last long, even
being washed easily from the container. We know
that if the level of salts AND the ratio of these salts
could be controlled at an earlier stage, we would
have the advantage of good physical structure
and proper nutrient balance.

Coconut peat has some wonderful physical properties
that greatly benefit plant growth. To begin, it
is renewable so no stripping of natures resources. It
makes use of the final product left over from cultivating
and harvesting the much prized nut. At the
right point in decomposition, the coco peat can
be used as a stand-alone medium with no need
to add perlite or other persistent amendments. The
coco peat itself is fairly pH stable and buffers the
pH well, in a very acceptable range for plant
growth. While they are fairly solid and big early
on, once the peat particles are treated and
decomposed to a certain point, they are like
sponges with micro-pores that hold water,
away from the plant root but available to replenish
the larger pores the plant root can access.
This effectively limits excess water while
holding water in a reserve status. These particles
hold onto no ions, so as long
as the medium is moist, nutrients are available.

At the proper point of decomposition,
the particles form the perfect combination
of air-to-water spaces, because of the different
fractions now present, which can actually
mean more air space to water space with the
micro-pores holding a reserve of water, giving
a nice water buffer to the grower. There is no
oil on its surface, unlike peat moss, so wetting
the particle is never an issue. The key in all this
is to decompose the particle to the perfect
point to achieve this. The problem is still that
the rate of salt given off remains high at this
perfect point.

By controlling the decomposition process,
adding the correct nutrient buffer to adjust
the ratio, feeding the plants the correct ratio
of nutrients to offset the coco ‘give off’
will produce the perfect growing conditions.
When the medium is not taken into account,
the results can be disastrous. Even when fed
correctly, and the correct ‘buffer’ of nutrient
ratio sets up, just one (1) watering with plain
water will wreak the buffer sending the plant
and medium into shock, rapidly escalating the
potassium level. Consequently, plants that do
not have enough of some ions like Calcium (there
are several) from under feeding or washing out,
will show deficiency in these and other elements
while the Potassium builds up in the plant tissue ultimately
to express as margin burning on the leaf
surface, mostly at the tip. The first thing the inexperienced
grower assumes is that they are feeding
too high and have salt issues so they back up
the feed concentration and leach the medium.
This, of course, magnifies the problem and it gets
worse. The key to proper coco growing is to use
the right feed to balance the products the coco
gives off, not just availability, but ratio of one to another
mineral as well.

It is equally important to water correctly.
Coco peat holds about 33 % more moisture then similar
grades of peat based mediums if it is in good structure,
but, because a great amount of this is tucked away in
the micro-pores, the medium can look dry but still be
plenty wet. The same rules apply here as
soil or soilless mix, water when the container looses 50%
of the maximum water it will hold against gravity (immediately
after drainage of a newly watered container).
Correctly this is done by weight and yes it does change
with time, root mass, humidity, temperature and growers
temperament (thumb on scale syndrome). By controlling
closely the decomposition and particle size, there
is no need for using anything to increase drainage like
perlite, which happily removes a disposal concern. Even
more air space can be achieved by increasing the fraction
of coco fibers and husks.
This results in a totally renewable and biodegradable
medium that resists compaction.
Finally, the pH of the medium, when buffered and controlled,
remains constant pretty much throughout its useful
life. The medium sets its pH at between 5.2 and 6.2,
perfect range, and will hold it there. Unlike peat based
products that try to go back to a pH of 4.5 or less within
3 months of being planted. By using the correct age
of coco, with the right porosity, coco potting medium
should be able to work through almost a year’s worth
of cropping before changing. The pH stays correct and
only the structure changes limiting the useful period.
So, we see that by controlling the aging process, using
the correct ratio of nutrients, using the correct composition
of nutrients, and pre-buffering the coco peat, growers
can anticipate getting the perfect medium, correctly
balanced, correctly composed, with good porosity, a
water buffer, and a lot less headaches then peat based
soilless mix products. That is great for a start, but to complete
a crop, it is critical that the correct nutrients be used
as well.
Consider coco as needing to be ‘fed’ along with
the plants. Once the medium establishes a buffer, which
it will do based on the nutrients it sees right or wrong; the
grower can wipe this out by applying plain water to the
medium. The medium hangs on to nothing and will readily
flush away its nutrients; then the plant will suffer until
the buffer is restored. Always use fertilizer when you water
coco that a plant is actively growing in, at least at about
EC=0.6 mS/cm3. This will hold the balance or ratio of the
nutrients to each other and insure that the plant gets exactly
what it needs.

:leaf:
 

jberry

Well-Known Member
Coco is an ideal medium. Plants thrive in coco when everything
is right.There is one company that
provides all the right components, CANNA. CANNA, always
researching new pioneering ideas in the horticultural
world, began exploring the coconut option when
the peat was just giant piles of debris left over from the
production of fibers. This debris was deposited around
the landscape of producing countries in giant, rotting
piles. Each year sees these piles grow higher. Initially
these were the sources of coco peat for CANNA, but
before bringing the product to market, they recognized
the need for higher controls in order to receive the coveted
RHP standard of Holland. They began controlling
the product from harvest, through treatment, and into
giant concrete bunkers to age to the exact level needed,
then buffered, packaged and delivered to the market.
All this is done without steam sterilizing, which resulted
in other beneficial consequences.
By avoiding the steam sterilization to ensure RHP acceptance,
CANNA also avoids chemical changes in
the medium, nitrate conversions to nitrite forms (toxic to
most life forms), and best of all, the natural Trichoderma,
inherent in coco, remains active, providing a level of protection
to the crop no other company can provide. The
structure remains intact, the Potassium release remains
a known variable, and the product is still delivered free
from weeds, insects, disease and other soil borne problems.
Like all its product lines, CANNA believes in the complete
package concept. Avoiding errors is essential. The Coco
growing ‘system’, medium and nutrient line up, were
engineered through years of in-house research and
countless field tests to provide the correct growing solution,
the exact composition and concentration of all the
things required for using coco as a growing medium. CANNA COCO nutrients (and COGr) are designed
to work with the exact properties of CANNA Buffered
COCO (and COGr board). There is no better or easier
way to begin and continue the Coco Growing Experience

:leaf:
 

laceygirl

Well-Known Member
This is why I love Canna Classic....

This nutrient has won more championships than any other hydroponic nutrient – including gold at the Holland’s Growers Festival!

CANNA Classic has an awesome reputation among countless growers worldwide. Use for plants grown in all inert hydroponic mediums and systems, recirculating or non-recirculating.

The CANNA Classic nutrient line, made distinctive by the colour green, was developed for so called inert mediums. These mediums do not provide the plant with nutrients, nor do they take them away from the plant. As a consequence, all of the necessary nutrients must be added to the irrigation water. The fertilisers in the CANNA Classic line are particularly suitable for plants growing in rockwool, glass wool, perlite, clay pebbles and other similar mediums.

These award winning two part nutrients direct from Holland are formulated after extreme scientific trials to suit growing under HID lighting where the ultimate in growth rates and yield are desired. CANNA Vega and CANNA Flores have an awesome reputation amongst countless growers and are undoubtedly the most popular hydroponic nutrients in the world today. The CANNA Classic nutrient line is uniquely crafted for use with tap water. As a result, CANNA Classic nutrients prevent accumulation of salts from tap water, which are damaging to the plant and the environment. CANNA Vega and CANNA Flores contain everything the plants need, guaranteeing maximum yields. They can be used in both recirculating and non-recirculating systems.
 

RockstarEnergy

Well-Known Member
im doing alright but im finally getting kinda sick of RIU, but still hanging for now... I still like to help and learn, but there are some major bags of douche on here.\

Anyhoo, waiting a few days to get the roots more established would be ideal but i have done it both ways...I have noticed that if you dont veg for a little longer after "potting up" than your plants usually wont stretch quite as much when u switch to 12/12 and obviously the root system may be slightly smaller, but the difference is mainly in the stretch the plant goes through during the first 3 weeks of bloom.
i know it man, i started a thread about that very topic a while back. ppl expect everyone to be friggin experts!.

im glad you mentioned the thing about stretching because i have a height restriction. i think i'll give it 3 or 4 days and then switch. it seems to be responding well to the transplant already(it'll probably die now that i said that haha).

thanks man!
 

jberry

Well-Known Member
The most reliable method for measuring the nutrient levels in Coco is using the 1:1.5 extraction method. EC and pH of the root environment can be determined by using this method. The pH and EC of the drain water generally deviates from the actual root situation, as Coco is able to retain and release elements.

  1. Take a sample of Coco from the slabs or pots. This can be done with a soil core sampler or a trowel.
    To get a representative sample the Coco must be collected from as many places as possible.
  2. Put the sample in a bowl and determine whether it contains the right amount of moisture. The Coco has the right amount of moisture if moisture disappears between your fingers when you squeeze it (photo 2).
    Add demineralized water if necessary and mix the Coco.

  3. Take a 250 ml measuring jug and fill it with 150 ml of demineralised water.
    Add Coco to the 250 ml mark. Fully mix and allow the slurry to settle for at least two hours.
  4. Mix again and measure the pH.
  5. Filter this material and measure the EC.


It is advisable to perform a 1:1.5 analysis after 3 to 4 weeks. The target values for EC are between 1.1 and 1.3, for the pH, between 5.3 and 6.2. Very high EC values increase the risk of burning symptoms. To limit the risk of burning symptoms, the Coco can be rinsed with acidified water ( PH 5.8 )

:leaf::leaf:
 

Don Gin and Ton

Well-Known Member
congrats man

dude you could be on mastermind special topic. CANNA :lol:

the process behind the coco production is interesting i literally thought it was just skin coconut mince it up and bag it.
 

purrrrple

Well-Known Member
Yo JBer i dont know how i missed this thread for all these months. I guess im usually hanging in the Advanced section. Anyway i ran the HG for a few cycles but im back to Canna and i love it. It's so simple and works so well. I get such high resin production with Canna it blows my mind. I use the Canna Terra line (for soil), not the coco line, but i was hoping maybe you could lend some insight on a few things.

BTW, dont get mad at me, i'm sure these ?'s have been answered but i dont have time now to read through this whole thread.

1. I have 2 feeding charts and they reccomend using the pk at different times, the newer one saying to use it for one week around week 3? I have though about using smaller doses for a longer period, or just giving it a blast for that one week. What would work better and why? Also, i believe it calls for around 6ml/gal. If i added 6 ml/gal and my regular base nutes it would be some crazy 2000+ppm. What i've always done is cut my base nutes in half, water at 2ml/gal first time, 3 ml/gal 2nd time, 4.5ml/gal 3rd time.

2. WTF is REALLY in the Boost and why is it so goddamn expensive? They say its "refined sugarcane". At $100/L i better be getting more than some damn sugar cane, and i have a feeling i do.

3. When they reccomend a certain ppm (say 1000ppm for arguments sake) is that 1000ppm BASE NUTRIENTS or 1000ppm w/ rhizo, cannazyme, boost etc included? I really dont "follow" the charts, i sorta just use them as a referance for ABOUTS what i should be using when.

4. Do you mix your nutes in a certain order? I do A,B,Rhizo,Cannazyme,Boost.

5. I am using tap water. Although you haven't taken a water sample from my area, would you say in general this line needs to be supplemented with calmag or is included somewhere in the line already?

6. Do you add any products outside of the Canna line? I use HG Roots Excelurator in veg rather than rhizotonic. Other than that its straight Canna all the way for me.

7. How long will a bottle of pk13/14 last before it spoils? I've had mine for over a year. Should it be replaced?

Oh boy i could go on and on. Let me think of a few more and ill post back soon.
 

jberry

Well-Known Member
Most CANNA products have a shelf life of 2 years, but there are some exceptions that i have listed below. All Canna products that arent listed below have a shelf life of 2 years.

Product Shelf life in years:


BIORHIZOTONIC:... 1 year(s)
pH Plus Pro:... 5
CANNA Canna Flush:... 1
CANNA RHIZOTONIC:... 1
CANNAZYM:... 1
Mono Iron:... 1
CANNA Tracemix: 2
pH- BLOOM: 5
pH- GROW: 5
Organic Acid: 1
 

~Shhh~

Active Member
WATER SOURCE: We design our Canna products for less than perfect water. Also, nutrients work best with some pH controls in the water especially Calcium. However, we advise using a source water that is about 0.2 EC or just below 200 ppm with most of this coming from Calcium (Ca) and Magnesium (Mg). This is important, and the level of Ca is important because both pH and minor elements can be effected by this mineral.

CALCIUM: Nutrients are built, and plants will develop based on ratio's of elements to each other with the element that is in shorter supply being the limiting agent for plant development.

Ca in high amounts will lock out Potassium (K). It also affects Phosphorous (P) availability resulting in reduced energy. Mixing Ca and PK in high enough amounts will result in the formation of percipitates (clouding). Many times the CA is the trigger.

"Cal Mag Plus" and "MagiCal" has other things in it... especially Iron, Nitrogen and another group they do not identify, including sulfur.
Again, these can cause additional ratio and lock out issues. Both of these products change values and make end prediction tough at best.
Iron in excess will cause toxicity. The proper way to mix if needed is to add it to the source water to achieve roughly 0.2 EC, mix then add the rest.

All our products have more than enough Ca, Mg and everything else to do the job IF the 0.2 EC of mainly Ca and Mg is available in the initial water source... This we are 100% certain of.

This causes a gradual and persistent low Ca condition which would show a difference in the final weight of the plant. There is also another question that can and does go hand-in-hand with this one: poor water relations. Ca and water move with, and are affected by each other... Too much or too little have effects:

If I inhibit water uptake by reducing Ca availability, the roots look fine but water moves slower and so, too, all other minerals.
If I dry out OR over water a plant, even just a little, I will cause the same issue.
If I increase Ca to offset the loss, I get results;
if I overdo the Ca at the beginning to offset a future problem, I get horrble things happening.
From, odd greening patterns on the leaves, strap leaves, spots, browning spots, distortion, etc,

If you are having problems, I suggest your cure most probably lies in bringing the initial EC of the source water to 0.2, go back to the normal feed chart, water consistantly (same point of dryness) and at the right time (50% of water applied is used before the next irrigation), never use plain water to flush, keep humidity 50 - 60% day and below 80% at dark.

OTHER TIPS: the total EC will be brought up by the CalMag and PK so dont burn your plants.

PK tends to be best used in a 7 - 10 day window starting about the time you see first flower formation. This typically, on an 8 week flower response group, to be about 5 weeks before harvest or 2-3 weeks after flower initiation (not the light change)...

Adding a powerful PK early will not advance flower initiation (as many companies are claiming), only the amount of dark the plant sees will effect flower initiation. Adding it early could result in phosphate accumulation and ratio issues in Ca and Mg as described earlier.

Also, watch the light height, excess temperatures will cause issues and remember that a leaf focuses light energy into its mesophyll, the area between the leaf outside layer. The temperatures inside run 10 - 15 degrees F higher than ambient air. Watch the light distance!

:leaf:

Thanks for this thread man! Lots of jewels to be found, just got through reading the full 34 pages, lots of props for the work.

I have used Canna's coco nutes for a bit but was never aware they were designed for water that has such a low starting EC... My EC is circa 0.6 out of the tap with a pH of about 7.4. This will rise after airing for 24 hours to EC 0.7 and pH 7.7-7.8.

I think I need to get an RO filter :D Saying that I haven't had the worst results using them.

Has anybody that uses molasses run it through drippers? I am using drippers and don't want to risk blocking them
 
Top