MY True HP Aero Plug&Play Pods

[zero1776]

do they make a sensor that can register difference in signal from a sending unit to a receiving unit to measure the difference in across a 100% humidity filled chamber and a 75% humidity filled chamber? maybe IR or RF? This way you would be able to mount them on the outside of the chamber with a small whole on each side to send the signal through that could be sealed with the face of the sensor and silicone.

Saturation of air is usually considered a humidity of 100% However the saturation level is temperature dependent. That is why we have relative humidity readings and dry bulb temperature readings.

While It might be possible to control the cyclic spraying of a 50 micro droplet system pretty well with a relative humidity controller type thermostat arrangement, the problem is with a large droplet size the droplets if contacting the controller sensor would always saturation. With really small micro drops the controller would seldom ever consider the chamber 100% saturated. A 50 micron can be run 100% of the time as long as the chamber relative humidity is not up to saturation (100%). This could nean setting upa multiple of misters seperately controlled so that you could run as many as you need to run 100% of the time to maintain say 95% relative humidity (the max allowed by most controllers). But your talking very small nozzles unless you have quite large chambers. For a chamber like you mentioned earlier your talking a gallon or so per day. That would mean ideally using nozzles that spray only 750 or 100 ml per hour, and running constantly from 2 to 4 at a time depending on night or day, size of plants, plant room hunmidity, temperature, lighting, CO2 etc.

I know humidistat circuit boards are usually epoxy coated and you could coat your electrical connections. I am not sure I would trust the factory coating though. Fertilizer and circuit boards are not very compatable.

 

[Essex]

I got a humidistat in my veg room linked to a fogger, it uses a plastic membrane in a streched loop that shrinks/expands with RH and switches a micro switch. But not at all acurate enough for controling a feeding chamber.

I could build one using something like this,
http://uk.farnell.com/ist/p14-smd-g/sensor-humidity-capacitive-smd/dp/1778041
its acurate to +/-1.5% at under 90% RH but states it will react up to 100% and looks very liniar capacitance rise up to 100%RH

I see what your saying about a contant mist but uptake rates will very with plant size.

Fatman, what do you think? am I trying to re-invent the wheel? or would it work better than a cycle timer?

 

[fatman7574]

do they make a sensor that can register difference in signal from a sending unit to a receiving unit to measure the difference in across a 100% humidity filled chamber and a 75% humidity filled chamber? maybe IR or RF? This way you would be able to mount them on the outside of the chamber with a small whole on each side to send the signal through that could be sealed with the face of the sensor and silicone.

That would be very difficult as unless you overspray to satauration constantly to limit hair root growth as otherwise the hair root growth would be so thick it is doubtful such an area could be found in the chamber where there is an unobstructed path across the chamber. The chambers pretty fill with roots quickly.

 

[fatman7574]

I got a humidistat in my veg room linked to a fogger, it uses a plastic membrane in a streched loop that shrinks/expands with RH and switches a micro switch. But not at all acurate enough for controling a feeding chamber.

I could build one using something like this,
http://uk.farnell.com/ist/p14-smd-g/sensor-humidity-capacitive-smd/dp/1778041
its acurate to +/-1.5% at under 90% RH but states it will react up to 100% and looks very liniar capacitance rise up to 100%RH

I see what your saying about a contant mist but uptake rates will very with plant size.

Fatman, what do you think? am I trying to re-invent the wheel? or would it work better than a cycle timer?

I checked your link and they seem to have a lot of sensors good to 100% humidity but with accuraccy of only 3+/- or 3.5 +/-. I do not realy know electronics enough to say whether these would be any better then the more common humidistst. The humidistat control used with the 50 micron nozzles would seem to be a better choice then a cyclic timer. I really am not much for controlling growing operations with a computer though and other than that manner I do not know what is available in the way of analog loop device that will allow users to set control parameters and that control a relay. I took only one college course in electronics and have avoid circuit boards ever since.

 

[Essex]

wow fatman, something ya dont know electronics! Im shocked, lol

I could build a circuit to do the required stuff, I wouldnt use a computer though as they just crash, unless it linux. If ya wanted digital control a PIC would work as intended, but analog would be the best.

Would controling humidity at 3+/-% work? your guess is probaly a lot more educated than mine! I have already built the cycle timer and this RH control would be a large undertaking and if didnt work I would be disapointed, lol

 

[fatman7574]

It should work better than a cyclic timer. Typically the adjustment is to set t your spray time so that it sprays until the sar turation point is reached (100% humidity then back down a ways). The set your time between cycles so that the plants show no water deficiency spraying. The humistat would keep the humidity at the optimim level nearlty always re ather than just for a while after each spraying and h just acceptable but very likely not nera optimal for a fair portionof time between sprays. The humidista should provide better control over the ratio of hair roots to lateral and primary roots so as to give better control over the bonzai effect. This should allow for easier growing of taller plants without having to result to a TAG grow with the stretched out plants with wide internodal spacing. Setting the range between the high and the low humidity would be a possible problem as I doubt hysterisis is a simple circuitry addition. Hysterisis capability would be able to stop over or under shooting that can occur when the humidity is very near or at the on and off points.

 

[Essex]

I had to google hysterisis, ya make me feel stupid wid ya big words! lol

I cant control the spray output in a persentage state as solanode valves are just on/off.

I can have 2 controls to have a high RH/off and low RH/on?

Or if the RH drops below a set state like 90% it gives a squirt and waits for the RH to drop again?

what ya think?

 

[fatman7574]

I think it would definitely be worth trying it out.

 

[AeroTrek]

Fatman, Essex,

Wouldn't the micron size of the RH liquid particles fall well below 50 microns making it a fogger unit? I understand these foggers may do well for seedlings and clones but have little effect on veg or bloom growth. Relative humidity (percentage of water vapour transported by a volume of air) equals RH. At 100% RH you essentially would have a fogger.

I think the best way to control the volume of 50 micron particles (other than a timer) is by using an infrared sensor that would measure the refraction of the particles from one end of the root chamber to the other. Of course the refracted signal would have to be calibrated to the volume of 50 micron particles required in the root chamber.

I could be off base here with my understanding of RH, but it seems to me it is a vapour with micron sizes well below 50.

 

[Essex]

Fatman, Essex,

Wouldn't the micron size of the RH liquid particles fall well below 50 microns making it a fogger unit? I understand these foggers may do well for seedlings and clones but have little effect on veg or bloom growth. Relative humidity (percentage of water vapour transported by a volume of air) equals RH. At 100% RH you essentially would have a fogger.

I think the best way to control the volume of 50 micron particles (other than a timer) is by using an infrared sensor that would measure the refraction of the particles from one end of the root chamber to the other. Of course the refracted signal would have to be calibrated to the volume of 50 micron particles required in the root chamber.

I could be off base here with my understanding of RH, but it seems to me it is a vapour with micron sizes well below 50.

Na not a fogger, 50 micron spray nozzles. This is NASA's grow style and can grow big plants, a fogger is not the same and is not any good.

I thought of a infrared or microwave sensor but ya roots will grow in the chamber and stop it from working.

You are correct RH is water vapor in the air and is well below the 50 microns. But it is nearly imposable to get 100%RH as it will rain, so as the chamber drys out the RH will drop and the spray is activated and RH goes up again.

Its just an idea to automate the volume of spray to the plants needs. I dont think NASA's setup needs this as fatman tells me its always spraying the ideal amount constantly.

 

[fatman7574]

Fatman, Essex,

Wouldn't the micron size of the RH liquid particles fall well below 50 microns making it a fogger unit? I understand these foggers may do well for seedlings and clones but have little effect on veg or bloom growth. Relative humidity (percentage of water vapour transported by a volume of air) equals RH. At 100% RH you essentially would have a fogger.

I am not sure what you are trying to say. The droplets would be neraly all 50 micron in size when sprayed. I am not sure just how a humidistat works. Consider this though. Fog is considered 0.4 to 20 micron, mist 20-200 micron and rain 200 to 1100 micron in droplet size.

Humidity is based upon how much water air can hold/transport, with 100% humidity being fully saturated. However the amount of water that air can hold is based upon the temperature so we have relative humidity based upon temperature.

In the horticultural field in aero applications they refer to the volume of water dispersed through out the chamber. This can be a very small amount. The increasing amount actually causes water droplets to form on surfaces. This is considered over saturation. We wish to stay below that point for a maximum at any time. How the humidistat determines humidity is beyond me as I avoid thefield electronics as a general rule and simply buy premade circuitry items. I have never in my life made up a circuit board from scratch.

I have no idea if a humidstat sees fog or mist as over 100% humidity if it is at levels where it is not at the over saturation levels where water was not actually forming as droplets on the humistat.


I think the best way to control the volume of 50 micron particles (other than a timer) is by using an infrared sensor that would measure the refraction of the particles from one end of the root chamber to the other. Of course the refracted signal would have to be calibrated to the volume of 50 micron particles required in the root chamber.

But like I mentionedd earlier, with a chamber full of roots how do you expect much if any light to make it across a say 3 foot span. Every single root that got in the lights path would throw the readings oof and the number off roots in the lights path would never be a fixed number but would constantly be increasing as the root volume increased over time.

I could be off base here with my understanding of RH, but it seems to me it is a vapour with micron sizes well below 50.

I do not know if mist is seen as over saturation by a RH device. Are you assuming 19 micron fog in air is humidity and 21 micro mist in air is seen as over 100% humidity irregardless of the volume of mist in the air. Air can carry moisture at levels above 100% humidity without it raining (oversaturation). Like I said though I use many electronic measuring devices but I have liitle understanding of most electronic circuitry. 110 volt AC and up I am fine with. Electronic circuitry as in circuit boards etc. though is not my field at all.

 

[Essex]

So what is ya field fatman, just out of interest? I was an electrician and a mechanic for good few years each.

 

[fatman7574]

I have a PhD in Environmental Engineering a Masters degree and a handful of Bachelos degrees. I teach upper devison courses in Environmental Engineering, aquatic and carbonate chemistry, plus a few under graduate courses occasionally. I keep reef aquariums (since 1972) and have been commercially propogating corals since 1989. Living where I live I have needed to in a lot of ways become a jack of all trades. I love chemistry but the police prefer that I not practice in that field. I like organic chemistry which happens to cover alkaloid chemistry. IE I can synthesis any commonly used street drug. I started smoking pot in 1960 and have been growing mj indoors under lights since 1974.

 

[Essex]

I was looking into carbon based chems myself! but it will have to wait as a carbon filter wont sort "them" smells and an ozone generator would just be dangerous, lol

I have been testing glass making a bit lately, just with soda glass but its a start.

Im only 28 but its a tempting field to get into.

I aint got a single qualification ever left school at 14! but still manage to make anything I ever need

 

[clydefrog]

Because bigger is better, lol. na really coz most 5-50 micron spray nozzles I found work with 1000PSI for misting people to keep em cool, seems a fairly everyday item so the spray nozzles are cheap and easly replaceable.

Storage vessel, is just a medical grade NOS bottle that I had the pleasure to empty into my lungs. cost free from m8, am going to see if it has a coating inside else I might teflon coat as I heard this to be good protection?

Ya seem to worry alot about power consumption of hydro systems? this is normaly a tiny cost compared to the HPS sat above and I dont consider a huge prob.

My jetwash is 1600w, 1500psi, 360l/h. so to fill my 21L tank to 1500PSI will take 3.5 min and last over 12 hours? that aint much power?

your power consumption with that pressure washer is going to be quite a bit higher than any of our small pumps.

besides dude...where did you find a silent pressure washer? i gots one and i gotta say...mine is butt loud. like mile away loud.
and how close are you going to be able to get those nozzles to your roots before the velocity starts doing damage? have you tested out the machine with just one of your nozzles?
and wont that rapid pressure release super cool your nutrient solution?

its an interesting idea tho.

 

[Essex]

your power consumption with that pressure washer is going to be quite a bit higher than any of our small pumps.

besides dude...where did you find a silent pressure washer? i gots one and i gotta say...mine is butt loud. like mile away loud.
and how close are you going to be able to get those nozzles to your roots before the velocity starts doing damage? have you tested out the machine with just one of your nozzles?
and wont that rapid pressure release super cool your nutrient solution?

its an interesting idea tho.

1600w / 60min X 3.5min = 93.3w X 2(12 hours)=186w total power for 24 hours
12p = 1kwh (my electric rate)
1000wh/12p=83w per 1p
186w use in 24h/83w per 1p= 2.24p a day

2.24p a day aint a lot?
95p a day for 1 600w HPS on 12 hours

It should run for more than 12 hours and will take 2 loud songs to cover all noise in a day (inside a soundproofed box aswell)

I doupt a 50 micron drop of water is going to cary much power at any pressure? (fatman?)

the nutrient solution tank will be temperature controled and insulated.

I havent built it yet, the planing on this is important so I dont waste hundeds of pounds on items that need replacing because they arnt right.

 

[fatman7574]

Awfully small mass to carry much punch. Force = mass * acceleration
50 micron = 0.000164 ft in diameter, sphere Volume = (4/3)*pi*(D/2)^3 so, V=(4/3)*pi*(0.000164/2)^3 = 1.848* 10^-11 ft^3, therefore (1.848* 10^-11 ft^3)*(gallon/0.1337 ft^3)*((8.35 lb/gallon)= 1.1530*10^-9 lb per droplet (1.1530*10^-9 lb)*(453592.37 mg / lb)= 0.000523 mg. Even a small rain drop (200 microns) only weighs 0.0026 mg. Just how much of a punch could one expect. Number of 50 micron droplets if 10 ml is sprayed per second: 10 ml = 0.0003531 cubic feet , so (0.0003531/0.00000000001848 ) = 19,107,143 droplets in one second.

 

[clydefrog]

1600w / 60min X 3.5min = 93.3w X 2(12 hours)=186w total power for 24 hours
12p = 1kwh (my electric rate)
1000wh/12p=83w per 1p
186w use in 24h/83w per 1p= 2.24p a day

2.24p a day aint a lot?
95p a day for 1 600w HPS on 12 hours

It should run for more than 12 hours and will take 2 loud songs to cover all noise in a day (inside a soundproofed box aswell)

I doupt a 50 micron drop of water is going to cary much power at any pressure? (fatman?)

the nutrient solution tank will be temperature controled and insulated.

I havent built it yet, the planing on this is important so I dont waste hundeds of pounds on items that need replacing because they arnt right.

do you mean it will only kick on twice a day?

i didn't mean spend a ton of money...i just thought you might have a way to rig up a 50 micron nozzle to your existing washer wand. if there's a way i would check it out if i were you.

i'm still learning hp aero, but i'm an old hand with a pressure washer and even the finest spray nozzle i have will tear wood up like there's no tomorrow. granted my machine puts out 3500 psi instead of 1500...but still. 1500 is a hell of a lot more pressure than 100 psi. i realize that 50 microns is small, but if you've ever been in a boat going about 40 mph through fog...even small droplets can do damage at the right velocity.

 

[Essex]

Awfully small mass to carry much punch. Force = mass * acceleration
50 micron = 0.000164 ft in diameter, sphere Volume = (4/3)*pi*(D/2)^3 so, V=(4/3)*pi*(0.000164/2)^3 = 1.848* 10^-11 ft^3, therefore (1.848* 10^-11 ft^3)*(gallon/0.1337 ft^3)*((8.35 lb/gallon)= 1.1530*10^-9 lb per droplet (1.1530*10^-9 lb)*(453592.37 mg / lb)= 0.000523 mg. Even a small rain drop (200 microns) only weighs 0.0026 mg. Just how much of a punch could one expect. Number of 50 micron droplets if 10 ml is sprayed per second: 10 ml = 0.0003531 cubic feet , so (0.0003531/0.00000000001848 ) = 19,107,143 droplets in one second.

Dam m8, thats some math!

can see how ya "carbon" products would taste nice

 

[Essex]

do you mean it will only kick on twice a day?

i didn't mean spend a ton of money...i just thought you might have a way to rig up a 50 micron nozzle to your existing washer wand. if there's a way i would check it out if i were you.

i'm still learning hp aero, but i'm an old hand with a pressure washer and even the finest spray nozzle i have will tear wood up like there's no tomorrow. granted my machine puts out 3500 psi instead of 1500...but still. 1500 is a hell of a lot more pressure than 100 psi. i realize that 50 microns is small, but if you've ever been in a boat going about 40 mph through fog...even small droplets can do damage at the right velocity.

yep less that 2 times a day "on" time, to charge a header tank.

I wouldnt bother trying to "just rig it up to my washer wand" as ya couldnt control it properly.

A pressure washer nozzle is designed to rip stuff up, fatman covered the power well enough if ya can understand it! lol