Padawanbater2
Well-Known Member
A valid argument for what?
TrippyReefer
Active Member
Uh, are you defending atheism or you just like to randomly post BS?
mindphuk
Well-Known Member
I would like one believer in ID or creationism to answer the problem of infinite regress.
If the goal of science is to provide answers, one of the big goals would to be determine how we get organized complexity when there was none. Science has come up with an intricate mechanism that was first proposed by Darwin. That is one of cumulative selection over large spans of time. Cumulative selection allows very complex things to develop very gradually so there is never a single step that can be seen as statistically improbable.
If ID/special creation is correct, then the next logical step is to ask how such a being came into existence. Does this powerful being have an origin? We should think if complexity such as a human cannot just come into existence then what do we say about a being that created humans? How did such an intellect and power to manipulate universes come into being? We are told not to ask this question because it is unknowable, but then why bother with such an explanation that doesn't actually explain anything? Explaining the Earth's organized complexity merely by the transference of another being's complexity, we are still left wanting, and that is (just one of) the reason that ID cannot and will not ever be considered science.
If the goal of science is to provide answers, one of the big goals would to be determine how we get organized complexity when there was none. Science has come up with an intricate mechanism that was first proposed by Darwin. That is one of cumulative selection over large spans of time. Cumulative selection allows very complex things to develop very gradually so there is never a single step that can be seen as statistically improbable.
If ID/special creation is correct, then the next logical step is to ask how such a being came into existence. Does this powerful being have an origin? We should think if complexity such as a human cannot just come into existence then what do we say about a being that created humans? How did such an intellect and power to manipulate universes come into being? We are told not to ask this question because it is unknowable, but then why bother with such an explanation that doesn't actually explain anything? Explaining the Earth's organized complexity merely by the transference of another being's complexity, we are still left wanting, and that is (just one of) the reason that ID cannot and will not ever be considered science.
OregonMeds
Well-Known Member
Mr Bean it's hard to take you seriously with that picture...
But wow, you describe a murderous god and the way you overlook the killing as if it just needed to be for the greater good, that's pretty flat out sick and evil.
You want to hang out with a murderous controlling judgemental god who you can't question or talk back to or get away from?
In a never ending family reunion with all your annoying dead relatives?
To most people, that's a worse hell than burning forever and not existing at all would be preferential to both.
It proves your type doesn't think anything through.
blazin256
Well-Known Member
spirit, consciousness, and inner being, etc. this world has 3 planes of height, width, and depth. humans also have 3 planes of mind, body, soul/spirit/whatever you want to call it.
when i say god i DO NOT think of jesus. he was a man and was murdered. i use the term god in a broad sense. god is unknown.
if we decipher the book of genesis we quickly find out there is more then one "god" at work. in the first chapter it is GOD that creates everything in HIS image, and he sees it as good. this is just pure spirtual bodies in this first chapter. in the following chapters it is LORD GOD, and LORD from then on. it was the LORD GOD that created a spiritual eden that eventually a serpent (LORD) tempted the spirits which led to LORD GOD exiling them to the physical world where LORD (serpent, devil) is the ruler.
heres a website that goes into it more, althought it is a lot of bible talk and might not hold the interest of atheists. still a good read.
http://suddenreality.com/Research_Genesis.htm
or here for a video of it http://suddenreality.com/Videos.htm
when i say god i DO NOT think of jesus. he was a man and was murdered. i use the term god in a broad sense. god is unknown.
if we decipher the book of genesis we quickly find out there is more then one "god" at work. in the first chapter it is GOD that creates everything in HIS image, and he sees it as good. this is just pure spirtual bodies in this first chapter. in the following chapters it is LORD GOD, and LORD from then on. it was the LORD GOD that created a spiritual eden that eventually a serpent (LORD) tempted the spirits which led to LORD GOD exiling them to the physical world where LORD (serpent, devil) is the ruler.
heres a website that goes into it more, althought it is a lot of bible talk and might not hold the interest of atheists. still a good read.
http://suddenreality.com/Research_Genesis.htm
or here for a video of it http://suddenreality.com/Videos.htm
Leothwyn
Well-Known Member
Well, it's separate from the whole notion of your god killing babies, or villages in the old testament... but speaking of him being sadistic: how do you reconcile all of the people who will face eternal torment in hell, because by random chance they are born in a part of the world where christianity isn't the dominant spiritual power? That's some harsh mythology IMO.
Of course I don't believe it... it's just another tool they created long ago to grab more power... or... umm... save more souls - by scaring people into converting.
legalizeitcanada
Well-Known Member
If GOD was all powerful and could intervien then why would he need to slaughter millions to ensure chosen peolple could surivive???? that doen't even make sense as Jesus was supposed to come from a Virgin....what was the need for the slaughter unless he was some masochistic prick.......some of you really need to think before you speak and not just reiterate what you've been told....your too much dude LOL
legalizeitcanada
Well-Known Member
If god created everything in his image he would be more infinite like the universe and not the model of man...I think its pretty egotistical to assume that.
blazin256
Well-Known Member
god didnt command death, it was the LORD. dont believe me? read the bible. who is the LORD? its the devil. it all makes since now doesnt it? people in the old testament were really worshiping the dark LORD. and even today. bad things happen when the blind lead the blind.
go to the above links i posted and read or watch.
go to the above links i posted and read or watch.
afrawfraw
Well-Known Member
Speak for yourself, friend...
afrawfraw
Well-Known Member
Yes. Let's run with the idea that GOD exists (OMG). Would he value a man that discarded his love and advice, yet performed exactly how he wanted him to? Would he value a man who did right EVEN when he thought he wasn't being watched? Who understood the REAL message? Would GOD condemn a spirit that stood for goodness ALONE, without being lead so?
"Oh,my!"
mindphuk
Well-Known Member
You are completely wrong. Whenever you see LORD in the Tanak, it is representing the tetragrammaton YHVH (the Hebrew letters Yud Hay Vav Hay יהוה
, the unpronounceable name of a specific Canaanite deity. Since it is blasphemous to speak the actual name of God except by a high priest during certain ceremonies, people replace the name with something else when speaking or reading. Jews have used the term Hashem, literally 'The Name' as well as Adonai, literally Lord. To claim that the term LORD in the bible refers to the devil means you have very little understanding of the origin of the bible and Judaism. In fact, the early Jewish tribes of Israel and Judea had no concept of a devil figure to begin with. Why then would they write about one?
Padawanbater2
Well-Known Member
I don't need to defend atheism. I don't claim the moral high ground.
blazin256
Well-Known Member
well im sorry if jewish tribes cant discern acts of love, from acts of hate, as what the LORD commands they do in the tanakh, old testament to kill, rape, sleep with virgins, and various other crimes on humanity. it may very well be the name of a deity. the devil IS a deity. the devil has many names and LORD as referred to the bible just happens to be one of them.You are completely wrong. Whenever you see LORD in the Tanak, it is representing the tetragrammaton YHVH (the Hebrew letters Yud Hay Vav Hay יהוה
jesus was sent to correct all the wickedness and corruption that the church had become because of the "worship" of the "LORD." he preached against all ruling authorities and that included the high priests of the time. jesus obtained salvation and guess what, he didnt have to kill to get there.
theres only one word for someone or something that will bring harm to people/nations, thats evil. and i dont need a history lesson to come to that conclusion.
care to divulge? cause i dont see any contribution to the conversation here.
mindphuk
Well-Known Member
The problem I see is that you accepted the word of some unknown web author on his interpretation when it doesn't appear that he is even familiar with biblical Hebrew and makes pronouncements with nothing to back it up.
You run into many problems, not the least of which is that Jesus himself is reported to speak the tetragrammaton referring to Him as Father. So your link appears to contradict the NT itself wrt LORD/YHWH.
A much simpler explanation is the one that most scholars follow and is the Documentary Hypothesis. This is pretty well established by multiple methods of investigation and has a simple explanation for the multiple names and titles of God in the Tanak. There is a direct link between the bible and the earlier Canaanite religion which was polytheistic and included the deity YHWH as well as Ba'al and explains the use of the other names for God, Elohim and El Elyon (God Most High), the literal Godhead of all of the Canaanite deities. It also gives a reasonable explanation why there are multiple versions of the same stories; two separate creation stories, two flood stories, different versions of the Exodus, etc. all with very distinct writing and linguistic styles, including using very different names and differing characteristics of God (one creation myth is the spiritual, ethereal, unseen deity while the second Eden myth describes a very anthropomorphic God, walking through The Garden looking for Adam, etc.)
Is it really that mysterious that these are the creation myths of different tribes that were combined by a redactor (probably Ezra) when writing the Tanak to appease to the various groups that now made up Israel?
Of course I don't expect you to take my word for anything any more than I would expect someone to go to suddenreality.com and accept everything he claims without any skepticism and further research. I do expect that if you are going to hold a position as fact that you have more than someone's creative thinking to back up your claim.
Occam's Razor cuts deep.
OregonMeds
Well-Known Member
Apparently you do, you were just schooled and missed learning anything from it. Do you claim to know what LORD referred to more than everyone else even in the face of your take not making any sense historically and if so, how?
Did you hear a voice tell you it means devil?
Babs34
Well-Known Member
...a reiteration of your very words "friend."
Oh my!!!
........now I will go rewind that movie I was going to watch. 
blazin256
Well-Known Member
how creative would one have to be to come to a reality that the "god" being worshiped was in fact an evil god/satan himself. why would (in my point of view) the real god need altars built, blood sacrifices, want fathers to murder sons, want nations to murder nations, etc. does it not make more since that it was the "devil" this whole time ordering such things? that why jesus was saying only through him can you obtain salvation. he shook the church to its core because he knew that it was full of nothing but evil and wrongdoers leading the flock into damnation. much like it is today.
and i never denied the books were just retelling of older stories. but what point are you trying to make mindphuk? that the god/lord commonly talked about is NOT evil? that really all im sayin about it. i realize your probobly trying to get at the fact he may not exist entirely but you cant deny that people have killed and been killed in his name.
i guess what it boils down to is me being mad at the constant conflict in the world.
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and i never denied the books were just retelling of older stories. but what point are you trying to make mindphuk? that the god/lord commonly talked about is NOT evil? that really all im sayin about it. i realize your probobly trying to get at the fact he may not exist entirely but you cant deny that people have killed and been killed in his name.
i guess what it boils down to is me being mad at the constant conflict in the world.
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afrawfraw
Well-Known Member
Anything which does NOT require thought is for entertainment purposes only.
You're confused...