Vegan Organics Aka Veganics With Matt Rize

[Matt Rize]

hmmm, you're slightly confusing me. by autoflower do you mean X strain crossed with ruderalis? an auto will flower independently, regardless of the photoperiod

The Blackberry Kush is of unknown genetics, but I do not think it has ruderalis in it. I think it is just a freak (genetically) and flowers at the slightest stress. This last batch of BBK autoflowered on the clone guy as well, and he let the mom go, so it may have just been it's time.

I need to go back to keeping my own mother plants, argh, seems silly when I know all the clone providers for dispensaries.

 

[upthearsenal]

i see, that's pretty weird. i would have kept it around, unless it hermed uncontrollably.

i've got a blackberry sativa, i think it's black domino X raspberry cough... i've read this thing herms indoors so i might veg it quickly

 

[Matt Rize]

I wrote an angry email about the synthetic micronutrients used in the BioCanna nutes, and I received this in return:

"Hello,

No animals were killed or harmed in the making of the product. No animal by-products are used in the nutrient. It is therefor Vegan by the definition of the Vegan.org website and every other web site I could find. Micronutrients are allowed under the guidelines of the USDA's National Organic Program under certain conditions which we meet. It has nothing to do with Vegan but does have to do with Organic. It is, therefor, Organic. Sorry, we feel we meet both definitions.

BTP was pulled from the market for quality issues that were appearing in random bags. Until the product and process are stabilized, it will be delayed in returning to the market with no identified date given as of yet. All that is up to our research department. We apologize for any inconvience this may have caused but are working very hard on getting it back soonest.

Hope this answers your questions.

Cheers
Ralph B.

--------------------------------------------------------
CANNA Research North America
It is not possible to reply to this email directly, please use the contact form on the website if you have more questions."

 

[Matt Rize]

i see, that's pretty weird. i would have kept it around, unless it hermed uncontrollably.

i've got a blackberry sativa, i think it's black domino X raspberry cough... i've read this thing herms indoors so i might veg it quickly

I kept one, and am removing any nodes that are way still flowering. It seems the bottom nodes are stuck in flower, while the upper are slowly vegging. Not worth growing to full flower, but maybe under 24 hours with lots of love it will make me a good mommy.

 

[upthearsenal]

I wrote an angry email about the synthetic micronutrients used in the BioCanna nutes, and I received this in return:

"Hello,

No animals were killed or harmed in the making of the product. No animal by-products are used in the nutrient. It is therefor Vegan by the definition of the Vegan.org website and every other web site I could find. Micronutrients are allowed under the guidelines of the USDA's National Organic Program under certain conditions which we meet. It has nothing to do with Vegan but does have to do with Organic. It is, therefor, Organic. Sorry, we feel we meet both definitions.

BTP was pulled from the market for quality issues that were appearing in random bags. Until the product and process are stabilized, it will be delayed in returning to the market with no identified date given as of yet. All that is up to our research department. We apologize for any inconvience this may have caused but are working very hard on getting it back soonest.

Hope this answers your questions.

Cheers
Ralph B.

--------------------------------------------------------
CANNA Research North America
It is not possible to reply to this email directly, please use the contact form on the website if you have more questions."

you should attach your initial e-mail as well as the response.

 

[Matt Rize]

you should attach your initial e-mail as well as the response.

I emailed them via their website, so my original was not saved. I honestly did not expect a response. I pretty much said "listen you jerks, WTF is going on with your BTPlus media, AND WTF is up with the synthetic micronutrients in vega/flores? I told them they need to research what vegan means to vegans. I sent them the link to this and my other threads and told them I expect a response OR ELSE.

 

[upthearsenal]

that's strange. so they have synthetic micronutrients in their biocanna veg&flores and are telling you that they are organic; that's what i'm getting from this...

edit: counldn't find a comprehensive list of the ingredients, but that sounds shady.

 

[Matt Rize]

that's strange. so they have synthetic micronutrients in their biocanna veg&flores and are telling you that they are organic; that's what i'm getting from this...

edit: counldn't find a comprehensive list of the ingredients, but that sounds shady.

Yeah, I had to contact OMRI, and they have revealed:

From OMRI: Re: Bio Vega and Bio Flores
"Restriction:
May be used only in cases where soil or plant nutrient deficiency for the synthetic micronutrients being applied is documented by soil or tissue testing."

 

[upthearsenal]

Yeah, I had to contact OMRI, and they have revealed:

From OMRI: Re: Bio Vega and Bio Flores
"Restriction:
May be used only in cases where soil or plant nutrient deficiency for the synthetic micronutrients being applied is documented by soil or tissue testing."

whhaaaat?! fuck canna.
i was collecting my pennies to get a biocanna combo package, that had the veg,flores, and the bioboost, but what now? maybe this sounds crazy coming from a veggie, but i would rather use organic bone meal than something that contains synthetic micronutes..

"Canna proudly presents the revolutionary and newly developed organic product line: "BIOCANNA".
BIOCANNA products are 100% natural and meet all the requirements for organic farming.
This means they are legally checked and guaranteed ORGANIC!

The Bio-Canna Range is tailor made for fast growing plants. This range contains essential organic minerals, fruit acids and oils that are beneficial to your plants and ultimatelly to your health"

 

[Matt Rize]

Right, eff Canna. Jerks. The Bio Canna line is practically the only "vegan" line that made it through Oregon's restrictions, so I am assuming (not for sure) that the other "vegan" lines are the same or worse when it comes to 100% natural/organic. EFF. Agreed on rather using something else to keep the synthetics out. Back to the drawing board.

 

[upthearsenal]

Right, eff Canna. Jerks. The Bio Canna line is practically the only "vegan" line that made it through Oregon's restrictions, so I am assuming (not for sure) that the other "vegan" lines are the same or worse when it comes to 100% natural/organic. EFF. Agreed on rather using something else to keep the synthetics out. Back to the drawing board.

yeah, thanks for the significant heads up. i guess i'm sticking with soft rock phosphate for now, yet i feel like i need something more.. i was looking forward to using the flores for supplementation but fuck it i guess.. do you have any idea why the GH vegan line didn't make it through oregon's restrictions?

...opinions on technaflora?

 

[Matt Rize]

Yeah... sigh. I still love everything about what they are doing with the vega/flores/bioboost. They are a step ahead when it comes to fermented plant extracts available in bottles. And the results have stepped my game up. BUT "synthetics = no way!" so it is onward and forward.

Meanwhile my blog a compilation of my other threads here and on ICmag. Some really good stuff on here:
http://mattrize.blogspot.com/


A friend of mine swears by the technaflora plus, but I think it has even more synthetics.

GO is pretty new and they are still dialing in the formulas. They didn't submit because they are a chem company too, and probably have more synthetics than biocanna. I'll contact OMRI and get back at you with what I can find.

For flower you can use the soft rock phosphate and seaweed to get a good PK boost.

I still can neither confirm nor deny the presence of synthetics in the bioboost. I think OMRI would have mentioned that with the vega/flores.

 

[Matt Rize]

First Part Here: http://mattrize.blogspot.com/2010/10/what-does-organic-soil-less-mean-and.html

Part 2: Why use soil-less?

The short answer is simple preference. The long answer is much more controversial. Here we go.

IMO soil-less organic media with soil-less inorganic natural media are ideal for advanced indoor gardens.

Here are my reasons:

a. Water Retention: Soil-less literally/practically means lower water retention in comparison to true soil. By having lower water retention we can feed more often, which is important when relying primarily on liquid/powdered plant food. Faster wet/dry cycles may speed up the overall life-cycle, a common claim of hydro growers.

b. Perlite: This goes back to water retention. The soil-less community loves perlite, although personally I am attempting to give it up completely for reason's related to my grow ideals. My mom and grandma explained to me the importance of perlite for container plants. Some plants need it, some don't, ganja LOVES it. In containers perlite helps fight soil compaction... but watering gently and slowly does as well.

c. Coco/Peat/Bark: These are the popular soil-less organic choices, although I'm not sure as to the proper label for the amendments. ie rice hulls, small sticks, EWC, and compost. These natural and organic products are great for growing Cannabis. pH seems to be the major issue in these products, as their buffering capacity is generally less than true soil.

Coco/Peat/Bark are extremely common for growing Cannabis. In fact, around here the majority of indoor gardens are soil-less organics. The common Cannabis designed potting mixes that most indoor folks use: Ocean Forest, Happy Frog, Promix, Sunshine, Roots Organics, Light Warrior, Bio Terra Plus, Humboldt Nutrients mix... these are all technically a combination of soil-less organics (peat or coco plus other stuff) and soil-less inorganic natural media (perlite). Of exception is the Bio Terra Plus which is actually just soil-less organic as it contains no perlite.

d. Control: By not having food in slow release form you are in control over what the plant gets. It is then your job to "read and feed" your plants. This really gives you the opportunity to learn what your plants uses (food) and when they use it (stage of life cycle). This also lets you push your plants to the max while keeping it organic.

e. Chlorosis: Advanced chlorosis at harvest may lead to smoother smoking flowers. Soil-less media has no slow release food, so Nitrogen must be provided or the plants instantly yellow. This is true until two weeks from harvest for all soil-less organics. Once the N is cut the green is literally sucked from the plant, by design for soil-less organics. This means the freshly dried herb will have a jump start on the curing process. The chlorophyll is consumed by the plant. This reveals the secondary pigments already present in the leaves and flowers but buried in a sea of cholorphyll. Secondary pigments (not green) include: purple, blue, lime green, red, orange, gold, and other light green colors.

Here goes the numbers for Bio Terra Plus. This is a super heavy (high water retention) soil-less media because it has no perlite.

Organic matter min 75% of gross product
Electrical Conductivity: 1.1-1.3mS/cm
pH (H2O): 5.5-6.5
Water Retention: 7.1 (gms per gm of organic matter)

 

[plaguedog]

OMRI.... LOL

Give me a fucking break, pay them and get listed.

Keep on pushing bottles.

 

[Matt Rize]

blackberry kush flower %15.44 THC %0.23CBD %0.05CBN

blackberry kush full melt%52.64THC %01.27CBD %0.33CBN

Matt Rize Blackberry Kush analysis by Steep Hill Lab

 

[jemstone]

Hey dog, why don't you get some rep, contribute, or GTFO. Seems you have been a member for a year and still have no rep. Maybe try contributing instead of just talking shit like a lil beeyatch.

C'mon now don't be a h8r if you cant handle the truth.

Biogrow and biobloom would be brand names that come to my mind as vegan. One is derived from molasses and rock phosphate. The other is just derived from molasses. I also think that Humboldt Nutrients Organic line is pretty close to vegan. The only exception is the grow formula (*edit fish emulsion) that smells like shit and IMHO is not enough N for the 0-10-0 Bloom.

Then again with all the pollution in the air, chem-trails, plastic trash islands in the ocean, radio waves and unknown government experements; why give a fuck about vegan plant food?

Also cannabis is a heavy metal up-taker so IMHO organic smoked buds may have higher percent of heavy metals and carcinogens then properly grown hydro/chemical fertilizers.

 

[Matt Rize]

I found this on another forum. This is a great review of Bio Canna products

"Test 7 - BioCanna = Bio Vega - Bio Flores - Rhizotonic - Cannazym - BioBoost

BioCanna is a vegetable based line of nutrients. No animal waste products are used. Many people shy away from products produced with animal residues to avoid any possible disease contamination. Things like possible mad cow for example in Livestock based blood meal. This is a legitimate concern but rarely occurs with quality nutrients. In any case, this is very effective formula. They are composed of unique ingredients and rapidly build a microbial environment healthy for root development and stress resistance. This microbial world is rich in primarily acid loving fungal life and beneficial bacteria.
Bio Vega supplies nitrogen in the form of " Betaine Nitrogen". This nitrogen is specifically designed to interact with sulfer loving fungus and bacteria. These organisms bind with the nutrients through enzyme decomposition and then "trade" these items with root systems within the rhizophere. The important feature to this is that the plant essentially chooses to absorb the nutrient or not. This results in very steady and predictable growth. Plants were not as large as other tests but maintained slow and steady progress throughout.
Bio Flores is the major blooming component. It is also a high quality item and continues in the same theme of rich microbial environments. The stand out here is the addition of a number of Hops extracts. These items are known to enhance flavor and scent among resin producing plants. It is an ingenious addition in my opinion, created from the Cannabiscea family. These extracts are lupulin, lupulon, lupurol and humulon and they seem very effective. Nutrients here again are supplied through the microbial exchange of nutrients by promoting healthy root zones. The plants continued very steady, even growth into blooming and bud development was incredible. Plants were extremely resinous, and almost more putrid in smell than other schedules.
All nutrients here also have large amounts of fruit based acids. Ascorbic and Salicylic acids for example that improve countless bio-chemical interactions within the plant and improve resistance to vascular disease. BioCanna prides themselves on plant health and general resistance to disease. They claim higher scent and flavour related oils over competition and the final product was potent and extremely stinky. Brix numbers are extremely high generally with Bio-Canna only rivaled only by Earthjuice.
Rhizotonic is an algae based formula. This very similar to a sea-weed or kelp based solution. It's basically their all in one additive. It has an immense amount of vitamins and minerals feeding the microbial life steady through the schedule. The company claims the included "Oligossaccharides" are an important feature. It is a fruit based combination of simple sugars (fructose) and easily available to the microbial life. This result is a healthy rhizophere. A healthy rhizophere is rich in microbial life. Remember that the more microbial life present, the more likely they will out compete unwanted pathogens. With this in mind these plants are extremely vigorous and resistant. This is an important and extremely effective addition to this schedule. It is yet another solution that asists in a higher Brix.
BioBoost is designed to promote phosphorus and potassium uptake. Both crucial nutrients in later flowering. BioCanna again uses incredibly unique ingredients here - tropical rain-forest plant extracts. These extracts promote fungal growth. This fungus is specifically efficient at transporting phosphorus and trades this nutrient for plant exudate's. Exudate's are incredibly important to fungal growth hence a "symbiotic" relationship occurs. Again, root zone health is the primary priority here. In organic situations that is of great importance. This solution works.
Cannazyme is another enzyme based nutrient designed specifically to help break down organic material in the substrate. Although there is a dense microbial world already in process with this nutrient schedule adding enzymes assist in making nutrients available at a faster rate. Many times relying on only microbial nutrient availability in indoor, organic situations we don't necessary provide the plants with the total potential of residual nutrients available. These enzymes help decompose larger, anaerobic material like dead roots and organic material suspended in the medium. I find enzymes are an important addition to any indoor, organic environment. They keep the medium clean, maintain healthy microbial life and help plants absorb the full potential of available nutrients. Many of these added enzymes are created using bacteria. Bacteria typically thrives in higher concentrations when pH is 7.0 and above. Therefore many of these enzymes are generally unavailable because of the acid loving environment cannabis thrives in. Adding them can therefore be highly beneficial.
This schedule produced wonderful herb and is easy to apply. Specifically because of the clever bottle design. The buds were full, incredibly resinous and smelled wonderful. The results were very similar to General Organic in fact although actual growth was in my opinion more predictable and steady. In applying nutrients I find steady and predictable growth through-out is significant. Surges in growth, as experienced with Marine based products for example, results in extended inter-node length and can lead to deficiencies because of sudden nutrient demands. I strive to achieve steady growth on all my schedules, and Bio Canna is in-line with that theory. I also noticed improved color using Bio Canna. Skywalker is 1/2 Dutch Passion's Blueberry and frequently shows blue and purple hues. This schedule showed more color than most second to only Earth Juice. Application was most efficient brewing an air infused tea as with Earth juice and General Organics. I find the Cannazyme should not be added until right before giving the nutrient tea to your plants. Enzymes work quickly and fungal microbial life takes some time to develop. I was impressed over-all and I think further studies with these truly unique line is important. It is expensive but you do get what you pay for. I used the manufacturers provided schedule. "

 

[JRTokin]

Sorry to bug you again but i just wanted to ask if you know if its possible to do coco grows with organic teas? Currently growing in coco using A&B etc, but wanted to try a fully organic grow next time round. Ive heard that organics is not so great in coco due to the poor microherd. I would try with the canna line of bio canna soil but ultimatly this is similar to soil and you dont really have much control over the medium, as with hydro. It would be great to do organics in coco

Oh forgot to mention, i started on my current grow with biobizz but had to abandon this, it just wasnt helping my plants at all.

 

[Matt Rize]

Sorry to bug you again but i just wanted to ask if you know if its possible to do coco grows with organic teas? Currently growing in coco using A&B etc, but wanted to try a fully organic grow next time round. Ive heard that organics is not so great in coco due to the poor microherd. I would try with the canna line of bio canna soil but ultimatly this is similar to soil and you dont really have much control over the medium, as with hydro. It would be great to do organics in coco

Oh forgot to mention, i started on my current grow with biobizz but had to abandon this, it just wasnt helping my plants at all.

Organic teas can mean many things. They may or may not contain any food. Pre-brewed AACT teas like the ones bubbling at grow stores are microbes (and a rip off IMO). They add life to the media but not food. Peat and other organic matter gets broken down by these microbes, and this releases some nutrition. But coco isn't like normal soil-less organic media (peat/perlite/EWC).

If by teas you mean an AACT (life) with added foods (ie fermented plant extracts, soft rock phosphate, bat guano, chicken shit ect.), then you should be able to pull this off in coco. You will surely have to monitor pH as coco isn't a buffer like soil. I suspect coco houses a less diversity of microbes relative to peat/coco/bark, and this in turn decreases the overall pH buffering capacity of coco relative to peat/coco/bark.

Can I ask... why coco if you want to do organic/tea nutrition?

I think better (environmental and fiscal) than coco is to re-use and condition a peat/coco/bark based media, which won't work for straight coco.

 

[JRTokin]

Can I ask... why coco if you want to do organic/tea nutrition?

I think better (environmental and fiscal) than coco is to re-use and condition a peat/coco/bark based media, which won't work for straight coco.

Thanks matt,
Theres a couple of things i like a bout the coco, firstly, when you screw up with over/under feeding this can be quickly resolved and it really gives you some control of what is in the medium. I just test run off and can see exactly what the plants need. In soil this isnt always possible and if you mess up it can take a long time to correct this. Its also difficult to see what the plant is getting at different stages of growth. The plants just seem to love the coco.

The aact with added food is definatly what i was looking for. This would be great if i could pull it off. I definatly want to go organic. Is it possible to just do a basic tea with molasses and chicken shit for vegging? What about adding calcium in an organic grow?