Led Users Unite!

[660nm420]

by your calculations... have you recieved the other 2 lights and do they work? i think if defective kessils were that common we would have heard about it by now, you probably just lucked out. I wouldn't go kessil because I don't think they are very appropriate for SCROG or SOG

I really wish I felt like I lucked out but I don't. No I don't have the other lights yet the guys at the hydroshop said they'd be in by monday-wendsday. The luxury of time is not on our side. They can begin to malfunction at any time and unless you check your lights frequently which is literally giving me a headache, they could be wasting wattage. They only have a year warranty which means you better somehow pay for them in the first year because by their calculations of wattage saved and ironically, "no bulb replacement" they take 2 years to pay for themselves in energy savings so I'd say at this point I want a two year warranty at least so that i can guarantee that if they malfunction like I'm experiencing before the 2 years of energy savings pays for them I can get a replacement light, but sadly it takes 2 years of energy savings to justify the cost and they have a 1 year warranty and I had a malfunctioning unit the first week.

 

[660nm420]

Well theres not many kessil grows or blackstars at all and if there are some there in the process. I know kush groove finished a grow up on a 240w blackstar but vegged mostly with CFL's and the bud looked great!. Like I said there are not many grows on these brand of lights going on right now but soon there will be I myself purchased 2 240w blackstars and will be doing a journal as soon as I can fix the problem with babies in veg or just plant new ones due to my own stupid half ass growing techniques lol... Right now I beleive kaptainkron is doing a grow with a 240w blackstar and a couple other people on here also are doing a couple grows with them just no thorough journals. To answer your question I dont think blackstar or lighthouse hydroponics is a shit company them being both the same company just different names they really dont bullshit you on the coverage area of the lights at least there honest on that not like other companies stating there coverage areas are up to 50 sqft ! is just bullshit.... They also will tell you if you call them we do sell HPS and MH so in the end really at least the company doesnt bullshit you like most of these companies on the internet but hey in the end you really get what you pay for just make sure the company isnt telling you false shit just to get you to buy there product. Also do some reasearch man and really see for yourself what LED's can do... good luck!

ALL Kessil grow first week! All I can say is URGH!! They would be working amazingly if they were ALL working. Headaches, delays, and frustration.

 

[jdizzle22]

yeah those apache tech lights are pretty awesome man!!! they have solid full flat heat sinks on them with some solid power supplies man it pretty much is all industrial

There is no reason to be excited about flat heat sinks when they should be finned, in fact I'm rather shocked he broke off to make his own and didn't even go as far as to get finned heat sinks

 

[660nm420]

I was talking to the guy who is making my led lights and this is what he said about Kessil, i found it interesting especially now people are finding that there lights are changing colours.

As far as the Kessil goes if you go their web site, look at the 'History' page (http://www.kessil.com/about/product_history.php) and then go to the dicon lighting page you will se that the wonderful Kessil is in fact an RGB fiber spotlight! It is not even 35 watts, the 35 watt RGB chip in it is not using the green and the blue level is turned right down low so it is really only about 15 - 20 watts! So you are paying $299 for a 20 watt (max) RGB spotlight! It is the slickest con I have seen yet. Thats how they can have veg and bloom versions with the same led, they just turn the blue level higher or lower! Slick website though!

Yep! I am in a bit of a jam with my Kessil test grow, already experiencing a problem week one my purple full cycle light is only emitting RED and I am still testing the veg. I got caught up by the hype and glossy website dumped $1200 and just want my money back now. I really wish you would have posted this a week ago! URGH!

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

Finned heat sinks are kinda overkill for most panel LED applications. We have taken plenty of measurements showing that standard metal panel heat sinks keep LEDs well within their operational heating capacity.

I def. appreciate a company that doesn't add unnecessary frills and options. If it operates within standards, you gain nothing but a more expensive panel.

There is no reason to be excited about flat heat sinks when they should be finned, in fact I'm rather shocked he broke off to make his own and didn't even go as far as to get finned heat sinks

 

[kush groove]

The 357 magnums will kick the shit out of the "crapstars" as will stealthgrow and a few others, I'd bet my left nut on it! Crapstar doesn't even have a heat sink man, and if you know anything about LEDs the heat sink is one of the most important components. The quality of light coming off of a crapstar when compared to a 357 magnum or stealth grow unit (both cadillac units) is not even comparable to the heat distorted light coming off of the crapstar unit. PERIOD! You pay for what you get man, end of story! Out of curiosity kush groove, what does branding have to do with growing under LED? Does branding increase yield?

if you buy these cheap chinese led's in bulk they will customize them by adding what nm led's you request....so a red, black, or green casing doesnt really impress me that much.....as long as the lights are the correct nm everything should be fine.....led growing isn't rocket science any at all......people are building working led's in their home.......

if you had a blackstar im pretty sure you wouldnt be complaining right now.......noone else who has a blackstar is unsatisfied......and as far as the branding i think they spent a couple extra bucks putting a logo on their light......every company has a logo

 

[jdizzle22]

Finned heat sinks are kinda overkill for most panel LED applications. We have taken plenty of measurements showing that standard metal panel heat sinks keep LEDs well within their operational heating capacity.

I def. appreciate a company that doesn't add unnecessary frills and options. If it operates within standards, you gain nothing but a more expensive panel.

What group are you a part of that you have tested finned vs flat heat sinks for LED lights? i don't believe there would be much of a difference in price between the two, I would appreciate going to extra mile to assure that cooling is efficient as possible. The better the cooling the higher the wattage you can safely run certain LEDs (some spectrums/wavelgenths/nm are only available in say 2w or 3w LED and have to be run at lower power because they degrade more easily). Finned heat sinks could also mean you could get away with fewer fans or fans that run more quietly. The cooler they run the longer they should last.

I'm not saying that an LED without a finned heatsink is crap, just that advertising an LED heat sink as flat is rather silly as its the simplest/least efficient way to make a heat sink.

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

Yeah but we have measured that the temperatures both on the heatsinks, and the LED surfaces are well below the danger zone, those finned heat sinks are a song and a dance. I would bet they don't effect the longevity worth a crap. I don't think they are going the extra mile, just charging extra bucks but putting cheap heatsinks on their panels. How are they mounted? Two pieces? One metal sheet to connect and support the leds and a heat sink on top? Which would probably not effect the surface temperature more than 5 degrees, or is it one piece? Which would be really expensive to purchase for a piece of equipment that hardly outperforms models without it, if it outperforms them at all.

What group are you a part of that you have tested finned vs flat heat sinks for LED lights? i don't believe there would be much of a difference in price between the two, I would appreciate going to extra mile to assure that cooling is efficient as possible. The better the cooling the higher the wattage you can safely run certain LEDs (some spectrums/wavelgenths/nm are only available in say 2w or 3w LED and have to be run at lower power because they degrade more easily). Finned heat sinks could also mean you could get away with fewer fans or fans that run more quietly. The cooler they run the longer they should last.

I'm not saying that an LED without a finned heatsink is crap, just that advertising an LED heat sink as flat is rather silly as its the simplest/least efficient way to make a heat sink.

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

PS I am part of no group, I just have a couple of blackstars and a IR thermometer. If everyone put as much scrutiny on their own grow lights as people who bought blackstars have I believe we would have a much better idea of production standards, whats BS and what not. I hear a lot of people go on and on about this brand, or that brand. People went head over heels for everything, so some reason I only see people scrutinizing one company and assuming theirs is superior quality without the same scrutiny being applied. I have personally tested and posted pictures, as have others.

I have combed the internet looking for details from many companies, however, nothing cuts the cheese more than personal experimentation. There is a lot of money on the line for most people and I refuse to believe that you have to spend so much just to get an effective panel. There is a lot of marketing at work on this thread to push people to more and more expensive models of lights. The bottom line is that LED lighting will definitely fail if the prices stay up that high, everytime there is some "led break though" the prices that once started falling bump back up for what we find out is mostly bullshit.

There a lot of people who don't want to spend all that money the spectra or whoever puts out. Those prices ARE ridiculous. For most growers yields do drop for a grow room when you switch to LED, although g/watt increases. Not everyone is focused on grams/watt, a lot of people are poking their noses around just to see if it would be cool to spend 200-300 bucks on an LED just for shits and giggles to see if it works. Grams generate the grower about 5-7 bucks, a saved watt generates 15 cents. People would rather have grams. Let alone that fact that to recoup 700 bucks, you have to save a lot of electricity,

If the bar is raised so high that you have to invest at least 700 bucks on a light to have half decent yield then it is no wonder that HID users shit all over most LED users. (save for a handful of examples with astronomical investments - especially by most users accounts)

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

What I am trying to say is that I want to propagate LED sales for everyone, there are many options, likewise there are many situations. I think that expensive panels are the death of LED lighting, not the life of them. Thats ass backwards. From the average users perspective, anything over 500 bucks is an ridiculous investment for a 4x4 foot print. I find that to be true as well.

The angle LED manufacturers should be going for is the investment comparison between HID and LED. If you spend 500 bucks on LED and 500 bucks on HID, I dare anyone to beat the HID weight output.

There are two criteria needed to fight that battle: a functional panel, at a reasonable cost.
Sure spectra has some good grows, and good lights. But who cares when you can pump that much money in HID and yield 3 times as much for the initial investment (which is the only number that matters to perspective buys)

I actually applaud those who have made their own panels, or dictated their panel specification to chinese manufacturers, thats some awesome shit. Im just saying, I can completely agree with most HID users arguments out there, especially when peoples backs are against the wall with money in their hand. The HID is proven and inexpensive. The LED is exclusive, indirect, expensive, and foreign. If you want to have the LED market thrive, the prices need to drop. Blackstar, and a handful of other manufacturers see that, thats why I bought their shit. Of course more expensive manufacturers will resist their retails being pulled down, but thats called competition, the drop in price now will pay back 10 fold in market saturation.

I for one will NEVER spend over 600 bucks on one light, thats insanity and WAAY too rich for my blood. I got 40 sq feet to make the most of, I cant budget shit like that when there are far cheaper alternatives.

Just my .02

If anyone wants to get serious about their LED lights, take them apart, hook up the ammeter, hook up the IR thermometer, and lets find out whats good. We only know blackstars numbers, and they get the most gripe out there from people who don't own them. Seems like a fishy situation in my book.

Chop up the spectra and get back to us.

 

[surgedup]

Yeah sunlight systems seems to be one of those companies that advertise 50sqft with there ufo product..... so maybe thats why he left.

There is no reason to be excited about flat heat sinks when they should be finned, in fact I'm rather shocked he broke off to make his own and didn't even go as far as to get finned heat sinks

 

[TshirtNinja]

The 357 magnums will kick the shit out of the "crapstars" as will stealthgrow and a few others, I'd bet my left nut on it! Crapstar doesn't even have a heat sink man, and if you know anything about LEDs the heat sink is one of the most important components. The quality of light coming off of a crapstar when compared to a 357 magnum or stealth grow unit (both cadillac units) is not even comparable to the heat distorted light coming off of the crapstar unit. PERIOD! You pay for what you get man, end of story! Out of curiosity kush groove, what does branding have to do with growing under LED? Does branding increase yield?

wow................ tell us how you really feel. Someone is pissed that he spent too much per watt on his system i think.......

 

[surgedup]

Yeah good point hudson ! I dont know if it will void you guys warranties but it would be really nice to see some of these units taken apart and see whats really going on under the hood.... I forgot who took there blackstar apart... but that was nice to see what was under the hood of it...

What I am trying to say is that I want to propagate LED sales for everyone, there are many options, likewise there are many situations. I think that expensive panels are the death of LED lighting, not the life of them. Thats ass backwards. From the average users perspective, anything over 500 bucks is an ridiculous investment for a 4x4 foot print. I find that to be true as well.

The angle LED manufacturers should be going for is the investment comparison between HID and LED. If you spend 500 bucks on LED and 500 bucks on HID, I dare anyone to beat the HID weight output.

There are two criteria needed to fight that battle: a functional panel, at a reasonable cost.
Sure spectra has some good grows, and good lights. But who cares when you can pump that much money in HID and yield 3 times as much for the initial investment (which is the only number that matters to perspective buys)

I actually applaud those who have made their own panels, or dictated their panel specification to chinese manufacturers, thats some awesome shit. Im just saying, I can completely agree with most HID users arguments out there, especially when peoples backs are against the wall with money in their hand. The HID is proven and inexpensive. The LED is exclusive, indirect, expensive, and foreign. If you want to have the LED market thrive, the prices need to drop. Blackstar, and a handful of other manufacturers see that, thats why I bought their shit. Of course more expensive manufacturers will resist their retails being pulled down, but thats called competition, the drop in price now will pay back 10 fold in market saturation.

I for one will NEVER spend over 600 bucks on one light, thats insanity and WAAY too rich for my blood. I got 40 sq feet to make the most of, I cant budget shit like that when there are far cheaper alternatives.

Just my .02

If anyone wants to get serious about their LED lights, take them apart, hook up the ammeter, hook up the IR thermometer, and lets find out whats good. We only know blackstars numbers, and they get the most gripe out there from people who don't own them. Seems like a fishy situation in my book.

Chop up the spectra and get back to us.

 

[660nm420]

If you think Kessil lights malfunctioning is maybe just a lucky thing because of how much I may get from the company for their error consider this, first go to their website, use their energy calculation tool on how long it takes to pay off your Kessil light, mine came out to 2+ years. The problem with this is they only have a year warranty so if month 13 your light start doing what mine is doing, the warranty is expired and you still haven't come close to paying off your light. We have to start looking at the energy payoff time/ warranty gap on these lights. ISIS 3 years rocks!! Hydrogrow penetrators for all the guff cammie has gotten in the past still has a 3year and 2 year on refurbished, and Haight Solid State has 2 years so I'm of the thinking that the warranty should cover the entire time it will take to pay off your purchase in NRG savings. What do you think about this?? Please anyone with any LED systems post your warranty periods for LED users quick reference. In "light" haha of my current situation I think warranty matters most to me now. Pardon the pun, but i'm really trying to cheer myself up since my ladies are

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

I swear to god these people are distributer affiliates sometimes. I have never has to defend one purchase I have made so much in my life. Oh well, my job sucks and my life is boring, I have plenty of time to argue.

wow................ tell us how you really feel. Someone is pissed that he spent too much per watt on his system i think.......

 

[jdizzle22]

PS I am part of no group, I just have a couple of blackstars and a IR thermometer. If everyone put as much scrutiny on their own grow lights as people who bought blackstars have I believe we would have a much better idea of production standards, whats BS and what not. I hear a lot of people go on and on about this brand, or that brand. People went head over heels for everything, so some reason I only see people scrutinizing one company and assuming theirs is superior quality without the same scrutiny being applied. I have personally tested and posted pictures, as have others.

I have combed the internet looking for details from many companies, however, nothing cuts the cheese more than personal experimentation. There is a lot of money on the line for most people and I refuse to believe that you have to spend so much just to get an effective panel. There is a lot of marketing at work on this thread to push people to more and more expensive models of lights. The bottom line is that LED lighting will definitely fail if the prices stay up that high, everytime there is some "led break though" the prices that once started falling bump back up for what we find out is mostly bullshit.

There a lot of people who don't want to spend all that money the spectra or whoever puts out. Those prices ARE ridiculous. For most growers yields do drop for a grow room when you switch to LED, although g/watt increases. Not everyone is focused on grams/watt, a lot of people are poking their noses around just to see if it would be cool to spend 200-300 bucks on an LED just for shits and giggles to see if it works. Grams generate the grower about 5-7 bucks, a saved watt generates 15 cents. People would rather have grams. Let alone that fact that to recoup 700 bucks, you have to save a lot of electricity,

If the bar is raised so high that you have to invest at least 700 bucks on a light to have half decent yield then it is no wonder that HID users shit all over most LED users. (save for a handful of examples with astronomical investments - especially by most users accounts)

I didn't mean to come off as critical? to you I was just asking. I know Spectra probably isn't the best but even they charge a lot less per actual watt (total draw) than a lot of other companies. The only thing i have against Blackstar is they appear to mislead people by not telling them the actual draw unless asked. And about your heat sink testing, do you only have blackstar units and some of them have finned heat sinks and others don't?

Is there a list going anywhere of the $ per actual watt for LED company lights? Some companies get away with making their lights sound better than they are because when they list the wattage they don't give the actual draw (they go "hmm 100 3w LEDs = 300w LED (when its really a lot less because LEDs don't run at full power, some only half).

I also think you can get great yields with less than $700 of LED. But its hard to determine how much you can grow with LED compared to HID watt for watt because some grows people are getting way more with LED than HID of = wattage and others they aren't very different. I think this is because of the differences between different companies lights and people getting confused about the actual wattage of their LED lights. So its hard to tell someone that they can get away with fewer watts using LED than HID because there haven't been enough grows with the same level of LED lights. *The difference between HID bulbs of the same wattage is a lot less than the difference between LED lights of the same wattage (1/2/3w LEDs, Lens Angles, how much the LEDs are actually powered, etc)

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

I took apart mine and my own IR readings too. Its not rocket science, like someone said, there isnt anything significantly more advanced than anything else. Nanometers are nanometers.

I just find it so funny that no one else wants to take readings on their own shit and just talk about anyone elses.

Yeah good point hudson ! I dont know if it will void you guys warranties but it would be really nice to see some of these units taken apart and see whats really going on under the hood.... I forgot who took there blackstar apart... but that was nice to see what was under the hood of it...

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

Horribly misleading companies like prosource, isis, and haight, find themselves in the same company as blackstar, unfortunately for twice the price.

I didn't mean to come off as critical? to you I was just asking. I know Spectra probably isn't the best but even they charge a lot less per actual watt (total draw) than a lot of other companies. The only thing i have against Blackstar is they appear to mislead people by not telling them the actual draw unless asked. And about your heat sink testing, do you only have blackstar units and some of them have finned heat sinks and others don't?

Is there a list going anywhere of the $ per actual watt for LED company lights? Some companies get away with making their lights sound better than they are because when they list the wattage they don't give the actual draw (they go "hmm 100 3w LEDs = 300w LED (when its really a lot less because LEDs don't run at full power, some only half)

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

Yes there is a list, actually a collection of posts by myself and dunit a couple of pages back on this thread.

I didn't mean to come off as critical? to you I was just asking. I know Spectra probably isn't the best but even they charge a lot less per actual watt (total draw) than a lot of other companies. The only thing i have against Blackstar is they appear to mislead people by not telling them the actual draw unless asked. And about your heat sink testing, do you only have blackstar units and some of them have finned heat sinks and others don't?

Is there a list going anywhere of the $ per actual watt for LED company lights? Some companies get away with making their lights sound better than they are because when they list the wattage they don't give the actual draw (they go "hmm 100 3w LEDs = 300w LED (when its really a lot less because LEDs don't run at full power, some only half).

I also think you can get great yields with less than $700 of LED. But its hard to determine how much you can grow with LED compared to HID watt for watt because some grows people are getting way more with LED than HID of = wattage and others they aren't very different. I think this is because of the differences between different companies lights and people getting confused about the actual wattage of their LED lights. So its hard to tell someone that they can get away with fewer watts using LED than HID because there haven't been enough grows with the same level of LED lights. *The difference between HID bulbs of the same wattage is a lot less than the difference between LED lights of the same wattage (1/2/3w LEDs, Lens Angles, how much the LEDs are actually powered, etc)

 

[surgedup]

From what I was told when I talked to sean from blackstar the 240w blackstar has 80 3w leds in it as far ass what it pulls I guess people around here are saying 140-150 actual draw so yeah.... im pretty sure if I asked him the actual draw he would have been honest I mean he was pretty much flat out honest with everything else he said it's not like he was trying to hide anything from me. Most of the companies will flat out put on there site this ufo or panel will cover 50sqft and replaces 600 to 1000 hid!!! which is just flat out ridiculous. Also I asked sean the question how much do my 2 240w blackstars compare to in HID terms he said about a 400w HPS so I would say yeah they probably do thats not to far fetched....... he also went on to say if your gonna grow with LED use co2 the both in conjunction have amazing results. Which is true because what I have seen from ledbudguy's grow is some amazing shocking growth rates!