Nitrogen Deficiency?

[The Freebird]

So I think this is Nitrogen Deficiency but I would like some more opinions on it before I foliar feed with FF Grow Big.
This is my first grow and it's been going great. 1 bag seed from some dank "Maui Wawi" that turned out to be a girl. 19 days into 12/12. CFL grow, 353 true watts 2700k bulbs, temps stay at 78F-80F during the day and 65F-69F at night. FFOF soil and FF nutrient trio, Grow Big, Big Bloom, Tiger Bloom. Following the FF feeding schedule. 3qt pot in a tight space, LST. Journal in my sig.
I'll get some better pics up tomorrow but you can kind of see the yellowing and a brown spot on one of the fan leafs. There are 1 or 2 really yellow fan leafs down at the bottom of the canopy around the 3rd and 4th node.
Threw in a pic of some little nuggets

 

[Snow Crash]

Given the period of life I'd say more likely that it is a magnesium deficiency. During mid-late flowering it helps to dial back the calcium and increase the ratio of magnesium. They don't look bad, but I don't think you need more nutrition, just alter the ratio a little and the plant should remain happy.

 

[The Freebird]

Thanks SC, after seeing your post I looked it up. It seems kind of similar but not nearly as severe as any of the pictures I can find here > http://www.greenmanspage.com/guides/plant_abuse.html
Here are some more pics, in 1 or 2 of the pictures it looks like some of my shoots are yellow but that is just my crappy camera, it also makes the yellowing look a lot brighter than it is on the effected areas. On one of the pictures you can see a small perfect brown circle on one leaf. On another pic you can see browning on the inner edge of one of the leafs, and then of course the big brown spot that I posted up last night. It seems like it is concentrated to that mid area that I took a pic of(the one that looks like the top shoot is solid yellow.. its NOT) some of the upper mid fan leafs attached to the shoots are starting to yellow a bit but not too bad yet.
She gets fed again with Big Bloom, Grow Big, and Tiger Bloom either tomorrow night or the next day.
Should I try to foliar spray with anything? or just wait it out till she gets fed?
Threw in another pic of a couple nuggets

 

[jawbrodt]

^Agreed, looks like both magnesium and nitrogen, deficiencies. Yes, I'd go with a foliar feed, every 3 days or so, til about the 3rd week of flowering. It's a great safety net to have, filling deficiencies before they've had a chance to show.

 

[josefontes]

it's not too late to foliar feed? i thought you risk moldy buds if you mist them after a certain point.

 

[jawbrodt]

it's not too late to foliar feed? i thought you risk moldy buds if you mist them after a certain point.

No, it's not too late, but, it's right at that point where you'd want to quit, because it's true, bold mold is starting to become a risk. Definitely not a good idea to do it, if they're not going to be completely dry before the lights go out(always best done, when the lights first come on, or right before that). I'm glad you brought that to my attention, because I'd skimmed over his post, and assumed it was earlier than day 19 of 12/12. I'd thought he was still vegging, and had thrown in some flowering pics, for our entertainment. Doh!lol On that note,... I'd stick with root-feeding, because the deficiencies aren't that bad. Just make sure the PH (soil, water, fert) is okay, and they should be fine.

 

[Snow Crash]

I actually think it looks more like Potassium deficiency in the 6th photograph. The tips aren't burnt so I'm fairly certain you're not working with a nutrient burn.

Though it could be a calcium or sodium excess in the soil which would impede the absorption of both potassium and magnesium.

Given the time in the plants life I think you don't really want to flush the soil. Personally, if I were you, I'd be using more Big Bloom and a lot less Tiger Bloom. You can cut out the Grow Big completely.

A perfect foliar feed for you would be Humboldt Nutrients SeaMag. At 1-3-4 it carries a good ratio of nutrients, and with 1.5% magnesium you get a good ratio of that element as well. If you foliar feed I suggest doing a lot of homework on how to do it right. Just as the lights come on, with a fairly weak solution, containing a surfactant. Then a follow up foliar with plain water to reduce stomata congestion on the salts and organics.

In the absence of this particular product there are many others you can use. I suggest you take a look at your calcium to magnesium ratio (too much Ca is bad right now) and try to manipulate your ratios to include a bit more potassium. Make sure you get "double" run off for a little while to wash out any build up and to establish that the media nutrient values closely resemble your solution ratios. Build up in the media could be skewing this.

 

[The Freebird]

Thanks guys! +rep for the advice jawbrodt I had my solution for foliar feeding all mixed up, ph'd, and chlorine evaporated but I'll go without it and wait to water her! I most definitely don't want mold! lol
And +rep josefontes for bringing that I am 19 days (20 days now) into flowering to jawbrodt's attention lol
Thanks again guys and feel free to check out and comment on my grow in the sig!

Stay blazed

 

[jawbrodt]

^Agreed, about the 6th photo. Looks like they're generally underfed, actually, and would benefit from both foliar, and a good balanced, high-P, root-feeding, IMO(as long as it's not excessive).

 

[jawbrodt]

P.S. If you do choose to foliar feed, concentrate on the undersides of the leaves, more than the top sides. It's okay to thoroughly soak the fan leaves, but try not to drench the buds themselves, if possible. Don't panic if you think you might've, because as long as your ventilation is okay,(and RH below 55%. I like mine around 35% during flowering) they'll be fine, and dry out plenty soon enough, to make bud mold a non-risk.

 

[The Freebird]

woh spoke to soon!
So I've been giving it around 25-50% runoff for the last couple of watering. I don't have a grow store anywhere near her so what I have is basically all I can get aside from home remedies. I'll be sure to read up on Potassium Deficiencies but now I'm off to work, thanks guys and the more advice the better! +rep added to you as well Snow Crash. Thanks guys!

 

[Snow Crash]

When "rinsing" my media of build up I make sure to get at least 1 gallon of run off from each of my ~3 gallon planters. Usually this is about 1/2 of what I add.

For me, when I water I use about 4 Liters which saturates the media without run off. Then, I add another 3-4 liters which wind up more or less draining straight through.

I've been doing this for the last 2 months, testing the run off each time. And with each watering the run off ppm is usually 30 to 40% higher than what I added in. Translating into a difference of hundreds of ppm washing out of the media. Even after dozens of waterings still, more comes out than has gone in.

Yet, each time it also comes down lower and lower, so I know I'm getting to the right place. I think that with enough run off, at the right levels, you should resolve any issue like calcium or sodium while still providing enough food to the plant. Little more K in the mix and I think you'll be okay.

Also, at around 6 weeks into flowering you should start to see some leaves begin to "autumn" off. This is a natural process that will last 2-4 weeks and should be desired. If you aren't more than 40 days into flowering then I think a quick PK boost would be a GREAT idea (good time for one of those anyway) and then you can expect more leaves to probably follow in the footsteps of this first one as the plant finishes maturing and ripening.

You're doing a fine job with your plant. Very good work. I don't think you need to be doing anything extreme unless this problem begins to spread like wild fire. Often times we are playing catch-up when it comes to diagnosis and the requirement for extra potassium may have been more of a "window of opportunity." Adding more nutrition now might have a limited effect as this window has come and gone.

The important thing to do is to keep a journal so that the next time you grow her out you can anticipate this requirement and really dial those plants in.

 

[The Freebird]

Alright here are some more pics from today, its gotten a little worse on the affected leafs but it hasn't spread to any of the other leafs yet. The girl in general is a darker shade of green today, healthy looking, but I haven't seen much growth in the past 2 days. She is definitely more frosty and the buds look a tad bit bigger but she hasn't grown nearly as much as before this started happening.

 

[The Freebird]

Big Bloom

Grow Big 1

Grow Big 2

Tiger Bloom 1

Tiger Bloom 2

Botanicare Pure Blend Pro Bloom and Liquid Karma.


These are my nutes, I got a hold of some botanicare Pure Blend Pro Bloom and Liquid Karma. Any Idea's on what I should use? and how much? I'm going to water with about 1 gal 1 qt to achieve 50% run-off. No foliar feeding, too many buds surrounding the effected leafs.

 

[The Freebird]

Fox Farm
Tiger Bloom: 2-8-4
Grow Big: 6-4-4
Big Bloom: 0.01-0.3-0.7

Botanicare
Pure Blend: 1-4-5
Liquid Karma: 0.1-0.1-0.5

 

[jawbrodt]

^I'd go with 1/2 strength Tiger bloom, see how your plant reacts, then go to full strength, if you find they require/can process it. 1/2 strength might be their max dose though, keep in mind that manufacturer's max doses are aimed towards maximized setups, large plants running 1000 watt HID's, burning up max nutes. Also, the Tiger Bloom contains micros, but I'd still use Calmag if I were you,(in conjunction with the TB) since they are showing magnesium deficiencies, and if not, at least one mild dose of epsom salts. I recommend Calmag,(or similar) if possible.

 

[Snow Crash]

I don't recommend any additional micro or cal-mag at this stage.

Use 2ml/gallon Tiger Bloom, 5ml/gallon Big Bloom, and 8ml/gallon Liquid Karma. This will give you a balanced nutrient profile, about 350-400ppm of nutrition. You should wind up with a 1.0EC solution (give or take depending on the tap water) and that is a good level for a soil grow.

Honestly, in my own garden I'd probably flush these plants to really make sure there is no build up, and then I'd switch to RO water for the remainder of the grow. If you need micro nutrients use Dolomite lime. Cal-Mag products contain a chelating agent known as EDTA which will create supplementary compounds which are known to break down the cell walls of the beneficial microbes in your soil. Essentially, feeding with cal-mag can have the opposite effect as the microbes die your plant has access to less, not more, nutrition.

Fox Farms Tiger Bloom also uses EDTA... Which is why I don't consider it to be organic at all. Again, personally, I'd avoid the Tiger Bloom in my own garden and instead use something like Earth Juice Bloom or just a good organic phospho tea.

 

[The Freebird]

Perfect, I watered her by your ^ recommendations. And thanks Jawbrodt I didn't even think about the nutrient schedule being for maxed out grows, I just assumed you go by the gallon regardless. She looks a little better and I trimmed her up a bit to get rid of the dead parts, left most of the yellow just so it can use the rest of the leafs up? and let them die on there own. Unfortunately the nutrients I have are all I can get, I'll flush her with molasses? in about 3 days when she is ready for another watering. I gave her a gallon today and I didn't get an exact measurement on how much runoff there was but it seemed like it was about 50%, should I go ahead and give her the last quart? with or without nutrients? I was thinking of giving her plain ph'd water right before lights out. About 3 hours after I watered her she gave off a very spicy smell, nothing like I have smelled on weed, smelled almost exactly like Spiced Chai Tea. She usually has the smell of a White Chocolate Mocha, and she smells as usual now. I didn't want to water her so early(I usually water right before lights out) but I had no choice, I wasn't home for most of the night and she was super light and fragile when she woke up.
As always, until this is resolved, all advice is appreciated!

 

[The Freebird]

Spreading like wild fire? Drastic measures?
She isn't browning right now but she is starting to get super yellow on her fan leafs, very yellow, like bright yellow.
Flush with molasses and ph'd water? Just plain ph'd water?
The shoots are still very green.

 

[The Freebird]

Pictures of the madness..