Defoliation - When and how?

[infinitescrog]

So I am growing in 2L Hempy buckets and the girls are 2 weeks into flower. They are looking great and appear to have finished the stretch. I now want to defoliate to get more light to more budsites. I know other people have done it later in the flowering (i.e. 21 days and again at 45 days) but I was wondering if they did this simply because their strain stretched longer?

Thanks for any advice!!

 

[Mother's Finest]

Imo pruning during flowering shouldn't be planned on. It should be avoided for the most part. Pruning a few leaves in the way of colas getting light can be beneficial but otherwise, more leaves means more energy for the plant to grow buds with. Trimming done in flowering should be spread out, taking a leaf off of a plant one day and then, if a few days later another fan leaf is really in the way of buds getting light, taking another.

 

[Uncle Ben]

So I am growing in 2L Hempy buckets and the girls are 2 weeks into flower. They are looking great and appear to have finished the stretch. I now want to defoliate to get more light to more budsites. I know other people have done it later in the flowering (i.e. 21 days and again at 45 days) but I was wondering if they did this simply because their strain stretched longer?

Thanks for any advice!!

This issue has been discussed a million times here. Do yourself and us a favor and do a search before taking up any more bandwidth on the subject.
http://www.starterupsteve.com/swf/posting.html?

Thanks, the hall monitor,
UB

 

[dlively11]

Pay no attention to Benny Boy, he is just a bitter old man with nothing better to do then constantly bash everyone on this forum.

 

[sso]

removing fan leaves, is like having a few huge solarbatteries and remove them so more light passes to the much smaller and less efficient solarbatteries you got, but both power the same thing.

every leaf contributes to the whole. thats why sometimes you can see the tallest bud being perhaps grown out of the light, but still gets the most juice from the other leaves.

 

[Serapis]

It's unfortunate that the OP accidentally asked a question that seems to always cause a rift here on the forums. The actual question is how far into flowering should one remove leaves? The answer is dependent on several variables, such as strain and genetics. I certainly would not encourage anyone to pluck leaves from a sativa plant that is six weeks into flower, hell, those plants need every leaf they can get.

Squatty, bushy Indicas on the other hand do benefit from proper pruning and defoliation. Not only are you allowing more light into the center of the plant, you improve air circulation which reduces the likelihood of molds or mildews, because fewer leaves and better airflow also means lower humidity. So if you have humidity issues that are hard to get under control, remove lower leaves and get the air moving under the bud canopy.

And to those that cite the solar leaf panel mantra, I suggest you look at Ed Rosenthals Closet Cultivation book on the subject of defoliation and pruning. There are many benefits to the indoor grower to knowing when and why to prune and or remove leaves. At 4 weeks into flower, any bud sites not getting light should be trimmed off and set aside for cannabutter or hash. This lets the plant focus on the important buds that are getting sufficient light.

 

[Danielsgb]

There is almost never a good reason to remove a fan leaf. It is complete forum myth. No horticulture expert would do it and no commercial green house does it for an annual. They all combine for sugar & starch storage, & help make a strong root system.
Daniels

 

[infinitescrog]

Pay no attention to Benny Boy, he is just a bitter old man with nothing better to do then constantly bash everyone on this forum.

Thank's I ignore people like him anyway, I asked a specific question and he had to do what people like him do best. Oh well.

It's unfortunate that the OP accidentally asked a question that seems to always cause a rift here on the forums. The actual question is how far into flowering should one remove leaves? The answer is dependent on several variables, such as strain and genetics. I certainly would not encourage anyone to pluck leaves from a sativa plant that is six weeks into flower, hell, those plants need every leaf they can get.

Squatty, bushy Indicas on the other hand do benefit from proper pruning and defoliation. Not only are you allowing more light into the center of the plant, you improve air circulation which reduces the likelihood of molds or mildews, because fewer leaves and better airflow also means lower humidity. So if you have humidity issues that are hard to get under control, remove lower leaves and get the air moving under the bud canopy.

And to those that cite the solar leaf panel mantra, I suggest you look at Ed Rosenthals Closet Cultivation book on the subject of defoliation and pruning. There are many benefits to the indoor grower to knowing when and why to prune and or remove leaves. At 4 weeks into flower, any bud sites not getting light should be trimmed off and set aside for cannabutter or hash. This lets the plant focus on the important buds that are getting sufficient light.

Thanks for the insight, I have removed a couple tiny branches that were not getting light on my one sativa, and as for the others (All Mango Kush) they are squat and bushy so I was mainly asking my question in regards to them. Soon I will be moving two 5 Gal bubble buckets of MK into the flower area under a scrog (thus cramming together my 5 MK's and 1 unknown (was told it was ATF, and is possible)). I want to defoliate because all 6 will only have about 4-5sq ft of space.

 

[infinitescrog]

There is almost never a good reason to remove a fan leaf. It is complete forum myth. No horticulture expert would do it and no commercial green house does it for an annual. They all combine for sugar & starch storage, & help make a strong root system.
Daniels

Right but I would think that the benefits would outweigh the drawbacks, especially in the last ~2 weeks of flower where root impact would be minimally noticed? Asking for your input again, thank you for the advice!

 

[Danielsgb]

You're better off listening to Uncle Ben than get pissy cause he said to do a search. He knows more about growing ANYTHING than I hope to in years. Root development in the last 2 weeks is minimal, but not storage of sugars and starches. That is when they are needed towards the end.
I think of it like this. Would you throw rocks at one pane of a Solar power system then bitch cause it isn't providing full power?
Daniels

 

[Uncle Ben]

You're better off listening to Uncle Ben than get pissy cause he said to do a search. He knows more about growing ANYTHING than I hope to in years. Root development in the last 2 weeks is minimal, but not storage of sugars and starches. That is when they are needed towards the end.
I think of it like this. Would you throw rocks at one pane of a Solar power system then bitch cause it isn't providing full power?
Daniels

There have been about 6 lame threads on the subject in the last 6 months. Folks who start these threads - 1. don't have a clue about botany, 2. are being rude and are too lazy to do a search on the topic, much less buy a book on plant culture. I know I have spent hours of my time trying to explain the botany of it all.

He thinks the stretch is over after 2 weeks of flowering when in reality the flowering response has only just begun. True to prevailing forum bullshit regarding leaf removal, he's hell bent on removing the very plant unit that produces bud. Stuff like this never ceases to get a laugh (and a sigh) out of me.

Regarding a search, there are thread tags like "Lollipopping", which probably had 30 pages on leaf removal, the pros and cons. Now, if some noob doesn't understand the function of a leaf, he needs to give it up. But with every new crop of noobs, comes the say old tired questions.

Infinitescrog, buy Mel Frank's MJ Insiders Gardening Guide. It will be your shortcut to success.

Good luck,
UB

 

[Serapis]

This is incorrect. I consider Ed Rosenthal an expert on marijuana cultivation. For indoor gardening, he does advocate for the removal of lower leaves when the plants go into flowering to improve air flow in the grow room and to reduce humidity. The forum myth is what you are perpetuating, that every leaf is vital to the success of the plant and that simply is not true.

For reference, view the Closet Cultivator guide by Ed Rosenthal and his Indoor Marijuana tour books. No offense, but I'm going to stick with his advise over yours.

There is almost never a good reason to remove a fan leaf. It is complete forum myth. No horticulture expert would do it and no commercial green house does it for an annual. They all combine for sugar & starch storage, & help make a strong root system.
Daniels

 

[Serapis]

You can also reference page 195 of the cannabis grow bible. The author of the ScrOG section has several good reasons for removing leaves, though he cautions it may stunt growth, the other benefits far outweigh it.

"Some do not remove leaf at
all, but I do it to help with air movement, reduce chance of mould or
fungus, and to allow light to penetrate the bud sites. Just remember to
remove a little at a time if you do remove leaf."

 

[legallyflying]

First off. Removing leaves is hardly going to affect your roots in the latter stages of flower. As serapis said, it's a worth while technique indoors. These "commercial annual" growers and horticultural experts typically grow their plants with the sun not a light bulb. The amount of energy reaching the lower leaves in a mature plant is next to none. Don't believe me, buy a light meter. There are plenty of people who get excellent results from the lolipop technique.
I don't trim leaves unless I have to but since I am a fan of SCROG all those bottom leaves, little stems and future bud sites that won't produce anything are cut away.

The stuff about roots losing the inability to store sugars and starch (which BTW, a starch is just a long chain of sugars; plants store sugars as starches because they are insoluable) is bunk. Your going to loose some ability to produce sugars by the lost surface area of leaves but if that loss means that more buds are going to end up maturing properly then your ahead of the game.

All I know is that when I trim off all the lower buds and branches and keep pinching new bud site that form, my yield is increased not decreased. Bottom line, everything in moderation.

 

[Uncle Ben]

This is incorrect. I consider Ed Rosenthal an expert on marijuana cultivation. For indoor gardening, he does advocate for the removal of lower leaves when the plants go into flowering to improve air flow in the grow room and to reduce humidity. The forum myth is what you are perpetuating, that every leaf is vital to the success of the plant and that simply is not true.

Gawd, one reason I hate this topic is I seem to get sucked into it every time LOL!

I respect THE cannabis botanist of all time, Robert C. Clarke and also Mel Frank. I also know botany and have decades of plant growing experience.

In his book "Marijuana Botany", Robert Connell Clarke states that:

Leafing is one of the most misunderstood techniques of drug cannabis cultivation.

He states that there are 3 common beliefs:

1.) Large shade leaves draw energy from the flowering plant and by removing the large fan leaves surplus energy will be available and larger floral clusters will be formed,

2.) Some feel that the inhibitors of flowering, synthesized in the fan leaves during the long non-inductive days of summer may be stored in the older leaves that were formed during the non-inductive photoperiod. Possibly, if these inhibitor-laden leaves are removed, the plant will proceed to flower more quickly when the shorter days of fall trigger flowering,

3.) Large fan leaves shade the inner portions of the plant, and small, atrophied, interior floral clusters may begin to develop if they receive more light.

Few, if any, of the theories behind leafing have any validity.

The large fan leaves have a definite function in the growth and development of cannabis. Large leaves serve as photosynthetic factories for the production of sugars and other necessary growth substances. They do create shade, but at the same time they are collecting valuable solar energy and producing foods that will be used during the floral development of the plant. Premature removal of the fan leaves may cause stunting because the potential for photosynthesis is reduced.

Most cannabis plants begin to lose their larger leaves when they enter the flowering stage and this trend continues on until senescence (death of the plant) He also states that removing large amounts of fan leaves will also interfere with the metabolic balance of the plant. Leaf removal may also cause SEX REVERSAL resulting from a metabolic imbalance

He goes on to say that cannabis grows largest when provided with plentiful nutrients, sunlight, and water, and left alone to grow and mature naturally. It must be remembered that any alteration of the natural life cycle of cannabis will affect productivity.

source - Cannabis.com thread, about 15 years ago.

For reference, view the Closet Cultivator guide by Ed Rosenthal and his Indoor Marijuana tour books. No offense, but I'm going to stick with his advise over yours.

You can stick with who and what you want. I'm not running a popularity contest around here lol.

UB

 

[Serapis]

That does little to explain why scrog grows are so successful. Most of those growers control mold and mildew issues under the canopy by removing everything under the canopy, including large fan leaves. The only thing not removed is the canopy that is receiving light. Even some of those leaves are tucked or cut to allow more light to the multiple flower tops.

Every time I mention or cite Ed Rosenthal or the Cannabis Growers Bible, the responses that disagree never seem to address those points. If I'm growing outside, there is no need to remove leaves. I may prune and train, but defoliation isn't necessary. Growing indoors in a small space is different. It must be addressed differently. I've seen a Pineapple Express plant yield almost 16 ounces in a 3' x 3' scrog grow. It is documented right here on RIU. All of the large fan leaves were removed. If their removal is so critical, why did the plant survive and proceed to yield a pound of dry bud?

The decision is up to each grower. I believe that pruning and leaf removal is critical to success indoors. That is my decision and I have reasons for reaching it that I have provided. Even though I believe in selective leaf removal, I don't advocate waiting until the 2nd week of flower to remove your first leaf. The process is a slow one and by the time you reach flowering, any leaves that needed to be cut or removed already should have been. Taking off too much at once will have adverse effects. Removing a few leaves here and there to thin out a plant's center for air flow and allow light to reach in the center should be an ongoing process.

 

[Serapis]

You can stick with who and what you want. I'm not running a popularity contest around here lol.

UB

The comment you responded to wasn't addressed to you at all. I can care less what you are running or are not running. that comment wasn't for you. But since you want to address it, I'll stick with Rosenthal and the grower's bible, thanks....

And btw, no one drags you into these threads. You don't have to respond. I suspect you look for them and engage in the4se discussions because you enjoy it.

 

[Serapis]

source - Cannabis.com thread, about 15 years ago.

UB

You are kidding right? You still pushing 15 year old science on us? ;p

 

[homebrewer]

I think a good gauge of a growing technique is to ask yourself if you'd do this to your garden veggies or your fruit trees. If the answer is no, then you should avoid doing that to your cannabis plants.

 

[Canon]

Having seen results from defoliating,, I'll keep to myself about it until this fool gets done with his grow.

https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/404682-theory-testing-styles.html <- click

This idiot is into extreem defoliation & LSTing with topping / FIMing and what-not.
May give you some ideas?