KlosetKing
Well-Known Member
Iam sorry, i didnt clarify it well, I did not mean 'more' as in quantity, i mean 'more efficiently' if you will.
But yes, you are correct =D
Kitty's Commercial Grow Op-Bigger & Better Every Day!
- Thread starter researchkitty
- Start date
But yes, you are correct =D
rosecitypapa
Active Member
In looking at your journal, the blackjack plants look nitrogen deprived. Are you referring to a different grow? Personally I feel the same way about both topics.
Kitty, what is your thinking around training for single cola harvests and your use of all that hydroton? You have so much space, I'm jealous!
KlosetKing
Well-Known Member
Those are great images, and demonstrate LUMENS quite well. But your still missing the point on spectrums. What that DOES show, is that HID's lose less lumens due to distance, but it doesn't not show the efficiencies of spectrums for phases of growth.Something i found useful, which also made me lean towards hps.
That grow was my experiment 'kloset' grow, and i had ALL sorts of problems with them ;D
I want to reiterate that just because I made mistakes and didn't succeed, does not mean the science is not behind what im saying. It is.
researchkitty
Well-Known Member
hijack the threads all you like guys, its good discussion, thanks for having it. 
Here's some cliffnotes:
- HID lighting (MH or HPS) is going give more heat than T5HO's
- In my veg room it is 78(F). A/C cant possibly help.
- Nutrients are always the same, and have not changed, the veg time only increased AFTER we switched to grapefruit diesel
- Blue light is best for veg, HPS red light is best for flowering. It has to do with imitating the suns red shift not the actual color of the light.
- It does not matter if you grow in a warehouse or a closet. A plant is a plant. Instead of just planting a dozen like most folks, we're planting hundreds. The results should be the same as a single plant grower if the same time care attention and environment is provided........
So, here's what I somewhat propose to fix this issue once and for all.
THE KITTY VEG TEST
Take 50 grapefruit seeds. Take 50 Endless Sky, Bubblelicious, whatever other strains we will be grabbing seeds for. Germinate and sprout them all. Put 25 of each under the 1000wMH and 25 of each under the 436wT5HO. See how long they veg.
Would this be an effective way settle the "its gotta be your lights" and the "its gotta be the strain" debate?
Thanks very much everyone
Here's some cliffnotes:
- HID lighting (MH or HPS) is going give more heat than T5HO's
- In my veg room it is 78(F). A/C cant possibly help.
- Nutrients are always the same, and have not changed, the veg time only increased AFTER we switched to grapefruit diesel
- Blue light is best for veg, HPS red light is best for flowering. It has to do with imitating the suns red shift not the actual color of the light.
- It does not matter if you grow in a warehouse or a closet. A plant is a plant. Instead of just planting a dozen like most folks, we're planting hundreds. The results should be the same as a single plant grower if the same time care attention and environment is provided........
So, here's what I somewhat propose to fix this issue once and for all.
THE KITTY VEG TEST
Take 50 grapefruit seeds. Take 50 Endless Sky, Bubblelicious, whatever other strains we will be grabbing seeds for. Germinate and sprout them all. Put 25 of each under the 1000wMH and 25 of each under the 436wT5HO. See how long they veg.
Would this be an effective way settle the "its gotta be your lights" and the "its gotta be the strain" debate?
Thanks very much everyone
researchkitty
Well-Known Member
The way the grapefruit diesel looks now its basically all single colas anyway. The strain doesnt bush out at all, it's just one big nug stick. That's whats kililng me now is the lack of a canopy and the huge veg times.............
KlosetKing
Well-Known Member
Sounds like a pretty solid plan to me =D
meetjoeblow
Well-Known Member
i have a question which i no has probably answered in the volumes of previous post but how many harvest's have came from this grow opp and how much dried herb did u get. also what kind of set up r u running. i want to start a small grow and i figure id ask someone who had a massive opp for pointers
researchkitty
Well-Known Member
Hi joe blow (funny name)!
The system is called "Ebb & Grow" for the flowering rooms, and for the veg room it's an "Ebb & Flow". Both are the same, just one is a tray one is buckets. My grow is identical to every small grow, I just have more plants and more lights so its more of the same thing often.
We've pulled 5 normal harvests plus a mini harvest or two from beat up plants that we just had space for rather than throw away. Yield, if you're under 1 lb per 1000w lamp you need help. THat's where I'm at now but it seems to be more strain related, I've gotten up to 2 lbs per 1000w lamp before with other strains like Bubblelicious, White widow, Northern Lights. The Kushes were fun to grow but the yields really stunk on them.
Go to thepiratebay.org and type in "marijuana" then sort it by seeders (SE). Download the top 20 files you see there and you'll have books, jorge cerventes and high times grow dvd's etc........ I still watch these often, despite how repetative each one is I seem to pick up something new to remember each time and it helps.
Make a thread on your grow too. Newbies asking questions usually get answers, but newbies asking questions in a grow journal thread full of pictures will get you a LOT more help and its a hell of a lot more fun too.
Most folks are great here, it's a 99/1 ration of good-ppl/trolls. Good luck!
420Marine
Well-Known Member
Kitty just curious maybe I read it wrong but why would you do 2 different strains if your testing your lights..I think it's a phenomenal concept but I think if the lights acted as the "variable" in the equation (I can't for the life of me think of the correct scientific term) but if you use 50/50 hps//mh vs t5's it should become clear..personally I used both and had a lot of great success with the t5's....the main thing I noticed was stretching with the mh
researchkitty
Well-Known Member
Two different strains, but equal quantity of each divided among the lights. The T5HO holds 95 plants, the 1000wMH fills the rest of the tray up with twice that many or so. This way we test two things at once: Each strain under each type of light. Then we'll know which is the winner, the strain, the lights, or both.
--- 436wT5HO ---
25 grapefruits
25 something elses
25 something elses
25 something elses
1000wmh
50 grapefruits
50 something elses
50 something elses
50 something elses
if the grapefruits lag the entire way and "something else" vegges real fast, we know its the strain. If the T5HO thrive and the MH are weak, we know its the lights.
researchkitty
Well-Known Member
Mr K does glass a lot now. It actually looks nice now, within the last month is when he figured it out. He's been busy cranking out a few custom orders from here, he spends so much time on them it annoys me
I made a pipe last week, it's got a few cracks in it as usual. 
NewGrowth
Well-Known Member
I love how you immediately dismiss my advice simply to feel "right". Use T5's and plant seeds, 78 is so perfect just forget a split A/C that allows you to run CO2 and control temps precisely. Hell just check out Jorge Cervantes' grow bible and get your advice from high times. If you want klosetking may even show you his warehouse 
I'm out
I'm out
fishwhistle
Active Member
Mr K needs to find some time to take a few more pics of kitty for us...Mr K does glass a lot now. It actually looks nice now, within the last month is when he figured it out. He's been busy cranking out a few custom orders from here, he spends so much time on them it annoys me
brownbearclan
Active Member
^^^ LOL Fishwhistle that name cracks me up! =D
KlosetKing
Well-Known Member
Sigh, ok dude. Thanks for more anecdotal evidence and sarcasm. But hey, who needs science if you have a warehouse right? Warehouse > proven science.I love how you immediately dismiss my advice simply to feel "right". Use T5's and plant seeds, 78 is so perfect just forget a split A/C that allows you to run CO2 and control temps precisely. Hell just check out Jorge Cervantes' grow bible and get your advice from high times. If you want klosetking may even show you his warehouse
I'm out
Anyways, hes kinda right. If you are going to be doing a full blown C02 enrichment, the heat is no longer a problem, so long as you don't let it get much above 95 or so. I cant find the graph, but heres an article that shows VERY similar results to the marijuana specific chart that im (still) searching for.
Since you have a higher threshold with CO2 enrichment, you 'could' move to a warmer light, like a MH like NewGrowth says. Only thing i would say is, it will probably warm it more than you want, and you'll need to implement ac. That's a whole lot more energy, imo. Your current temps will still utilize that co2 just fine, so i don't see the need personally.
-edit- Its also important to note, that split A/C that allows you to run CO2 IS a good idea. But i was getting the impression that you were looking for similar efficiency with less cost. Obviously if you want to blow a ton of money on your warehouse, fully automate everything, and have bells and whistles to go with it all, then sure, you can do that.
researchkitty
Well-Known Member
I didnt dismiss your advice. Had you read the *entire* thread, you'd have seen numerous posts about quote "When we add Co2 we'll also be using a river to water cool all of the lights and then seal the rooms up. Since the water temperature remains cold all year round, this is an excellent free source of electricity versus a/c units which require a lot of power to offset so many btu's...."I love how you immediately dismiss my advice simply to feel "right". Use T5's and plant seeds, 78 is so perfect just forget a split A/C that allows you to run CO2 and control temps precisely. Hell just check out Jorge Cervantes' grow bible and get your advice from high times. If you want klosetking may even show you his warehouse
I'm out
So, when we do go Co2, instead of a very large fresh air intake that we already have, a/c wont really even be needed. Right now the temperatures and air control and "the ability of leaves to flutter" remain solid. Air flow is great. THe water cooling setup will run about $150 per light and then about $200 for the barrel and wort chillers and pumps. This, versus the cost of a/c and then the electricity for that I'll be ahead financially within an actual 5 months.
Additionally, I should point this out, that Co2 has zero impact on plants in the vegetative state. Co2 is really only requested of the plants in a higher ppm than normal when you begin putting weight on the buds, not even in the first few weeks of flowering.
Not to argue or ever really be the arguing type, but the co2 suggestions and cooling suggestions are thoughtful but not really plant improvers for the situation that is a concern right now (the 5 week veg time). The plants do great in flower!
Cptn
Well-Known Member
Hi Kitty.
One key factor in comparing HID lights vs. T5HO is depth of usable light.
With HID, you must maintain significant distance from the source to prevent damaging the plants. Lets call that distance the "heat buffer."
(I think they are too aggressive stating that you can run plants 9" - 10" from 1000 watt bulbs without damaging the plant. My experience shows 12" as an aggressively close. No cool tubes back then, not sure if it changes things.)
You can see in the charts that the "ideal" light level ends at 5000 lumens.
The distance between the heat buffer and 5k lumens is the depth of usable light.
This is the main metric that HID advocates use to argue the superiority of their platform.
Because of the higher power levels of these point-source lights, the depth of useable light ranges from 20 to 26 inches (or 18 to 24 if you think the chart is wrong with the closes safe distance.)
The T5HO light delivers 5000 lumens 12 inches from the tube.
Although I can comfortably hold my hand on the tube, young sprouts and delicate tops have been known to be damaged by sitting against them all day. Allowing for a 1" heat buffer, I would say that there is an 11 inch depth of usable light.
That is comparing these 2 VERY different types of light sources "apples to apples."
I describe HID lighting as point source lighting. All the light emanates from a small (~4") tube in the center of the bulb.
The T5HO light is not a point source light like the HID, but rather works more like a panel of light the same size as the grow space below.
Why does this matter? Contrary to common opinion, HID light does not blaze right through plant veg. Flowers, leaves and stems create shadows underneath with greatly diminished light levels.
Because HID is a point light source, those shadows are only filled by light reflected from walls or other surfaces of the grow space. This is where T5's have a huge advantage. Because the source of the light is the entire area above the grow space, shadows are filled by light from other parts of the light "panel."
The result is the dramatically improved branching and node development.
Ultimately, the intensity vs penetration argument is a tradeoff.
T5's have other qualities that may weigh into your decision:
Less heat
Extremely flexible control of the light spectrum (combining different numbers of a broad selection of tubes in your fixture to dial in specific lighting tailored for the changing needs of the plant lifecycle.)
It is just as easy to find a grow style that takes advantage of the T5 light packaging as it is to find one that puts it at a disadvantage to HID.
If you want to see what T5's are capable of, check out this thread by BendMMC on 420mag and tell me the T5 "can't penetrate."
Finally for roachclip420, I agree that T5's for blooming in commercial grows are extremely uncommon these days, but given the amount of technological inertia i the trade these days, that doesn't necessarily mean it's not a good idea . . .
Bust of amazing commercial grow using T5s for veg
Good luck Kitty. I am a big fan
One key factor in comparing HID lights vs. T5HO is depth of usable light.
With HID, you must maintain significant distance from the source to prevent damaging the plants. Lets call that distance the "heat buffer."
(I think they are too aggressive stating that you can run plants 9" - 10" from 1000 watt bulbs without damaging the plant. My experience shows 12" as an aggressively close. No cool tubes back then, not sure if it changes things.)
You can see in the charts that the "ideal" light level ends at 5000 lumens.
The distance between the heat buffer and 5k lumens is the depth of usable light.
This is the main metric that HID advocates use to argue the superiority of their platform.
Because of the higher power levels of these point-source lights, the depth of useable light ranges from 20 to 26 inches (or 18 to 24 if you think the chart is wrong with the closes safe distance.)
The T5HO light delivers 5000 lumens 12 inches from the tube.
Although I can comfortably hold my hand on the tube, young sprouts and delicate tops have been known to be damaged by sitting against them all day. Allowing for a 1" heat buffer, I would say that there is an 11 inch depth of usable light.
That is comparing these 2 VERY different types of light sources "apples to apples."
I describe HID lighting as point source lighting. All the light emanates from a small (~4") tube in the center of the bulb.
The T5HO light is not a point source light like the HID, but rather works more like a panel of light the same size as the grow space below.
Why does this matter? Contrary to common opinion, HID light does not blaze right through plant veg. Flowers, leaves and stems create shadows underneath with greatly diminished light levels.
Because HID is a point light source, those shadows are only filled by light reflected from walls or other surfaces of the grow space. This is where T5's have a huge advantage. Because the source of the light is the entire area above the grow space, shadows are filled by light from other parts of the light "panel."
The result is the dramatically improved branching and node development.
Ultimately, the intensity vs penetration argument is a tradeoff.
T5's have other qualities that may weigh into your decision:
Less heat
Extremely flexible control of the light spectrum (combining different numbers of a broad selection of tubes in your fixture to dial in specific lighting tailored for the changing needs of the plant lifecycle.)
It is just as easy to find a grow style that takes advantage of the T5 light packaging as it is to find one that puts it at a disadvantage to HID.
If you want to see what T5's are capable of, check out this thread by BendMMC on 420mag and tell me the T5 "can't penetrate."
Finally for roachclip420, I agree that T5's for blooming in commercial grows are extremely uncommon these days, but given the amount of technological inertia i the trade these days, that doesn't necessarily mean it's not a good idea . . .
Bust of amazing commercial grow using T5s for veg
Good luck Kitty. I am a big fan
Something i found useful, which also made me lean towards hps.