Let's Talk about Unemployment!

mame

Well-Known Member
So I'm beginning to get frustrated.

Policymakers in Washington have been tunnelvisioning national debt and the deficit this whole time, despite the fact that unemployment remains unacceptably high. Am I the only one who thinks this is ass backwards?

As far as I can tell, it makes more sense to tackle the unemployment problem first for many reasons - including factors like added revenue and faster GDP growth - because lower unemployment would help reduce the amount of money the U.S. needs to borrow each year. But Washington has given up. They dont care about your prospects of getting a job or not - eh, let me be less harsh(and more accurate): The Republicans dont care, the Democrats are too scared and Obama has settled for the harsh reality that nothing is likely to get done this congress.

Allow me to explain this reasoning:

The Republicans are pursuing exactly the same policies that they pursue in normal times. That is - tax cuts and deregulation. The Republicans released their (vague) plan for jobs, calling it a plan for "America's Job Creators" and it is full of exactly the same kinds of policies that they've been pursuing since Reagan; This is not a job creaton plan, this is once again your standard Republican wish-list. Fun. lol..

The Democrats are scared, and Obama is a realist; Neither of these positions are particularly better than the Republican position (let 'em rot!) but they both stem - not from idealogy - but from politics.

You see, the way out is to spend. It doesn't take a genius to realize why Obama and the Democrats aren't touching this one with a 50 foot long pole - they're scared for their jobs(because spending has been so successfully demonized)... On the flip side, that makes the Republican position make more sense as well - they dont want to spend, therefore they have no plans on reducing unemployment. They'll never admit this ofc, they'll just continue to campaign against "runaway" spending and persistently high unemployment as a way to get Obama out of office(remember, more republicans care about getting Obama out of office than who will actually replace him!).

Now, what would the Democrats do? Progressives throughout the blogosphere(because you know, the ones in power are too scared) have been pointing to one thing that's holding the economy from a full and robust economy - the housing bust. More specifically, the enormous amount of debt keeping consumers from, well, consuming is dampening an otherwise moderate recovery (especially when you look at U.S. manufactoring trade balance... manufactoring traditionally is a good indicator of recovery).

There are a few ideas floating around but what it basically comes down to is a sort of "main street bailout" in which the Federal government aggressively seeks to restructure, buy, etc the debt that is holding aggregiate demand down. Another part of the plan would be to raise the federal minimum wage, which in real terms is lower than it has been for what, 50 years? What we accomplish with these two policies is 1) once consumer debt is dealt with, consumers will buy things! 2) Raising the federal minimum wage would help to erase some of the pain felt by the lowest income workers via gas and food(although admitedly market forces would eventually compensate for the extra cost of labor, the short term effects would be helpful).
 

BendBrewer

Well-Known Member
The Unemployment Rate is a Lagging Economic Indicator. By the time the UR rates drops to 4-5%, we will most likely be heading into another downturn.

The last recession started in 2007. The UR was 4.6%. In 2008 during the heart of the recession, it was 5.8.

If you remember the Far Right Media was jumping up and down during this time claiming there was no recession, that it was all a Media Myth being used to drive the election. Rush would point to the UR at this time and claim there was no recession. They were wrong. They were looking at Lagging Indicators.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
The Unemployment Rate is a Lagging Economic Indicator. By the time the UR rates drops to 4-5%, we will most likely be heading into another downturn.

The last recession started in 2007. The UR was 4.6%. In 2008 during the heart of the recession, it was 5.8.

If you remember the Far Right Media was jumping up and down during this time claiming there was no recession, that it was all a Media Myth being used to drive the election. Rush would point to the UR at this time and claim there was no recession. They were wrong. They were looking at Lagging Indicators.
You're right, Unemployment is a lagging indicator - but wasn't the last stimulus a couple years ago now? We're creating just a bit more than enough to maintain the UR with the rising population... Is it not obvious that the stimulus wasn't enough? (Although mostly, the problem with that package was that close to half of it was tax cuts.. if that money was spent on debt settling, restructuring, buying... it would have been MUCH more effective)...
 

redivider

Well-Known Member
government stimulus ain't going to do shit as long as jobs go elsewhere.

we have to get jobs back home, and that's not gonna happen unless we FORCE the rich to get the jobs back here.

as long as we let the rich pick and choose where the jobs are going, they are going to go with the cheapest alternative, and that's not going to be in the US.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
government stimulus ain't going to do shit as long as jobs go elsewhere.

we have to get jobs back home, and that's not gonna happen unless we FORCE the rich to get the jobs back here.

as long as we let the rich pick and choose where the jobs are going, they are going to go with the cheapest alternative, and that's not going to be in the US.
Well, as early as 10 years ago the unemployment rate was close to ~5% so there are enough service jobs available in normal times for the U.S. to reach full employment - which would be the goal, obviously.

U.S. manufactoring has actually improved in recent years(see graph), although it'll never be like it was back in the day without pissing off the rest of the world -protectionist policies are loved on the global stage after all.

Krugman.jpg
 

BendBrewer

Well-Known Member
Try to find the UR for educated workers. I think the last I saw it, it was at 4 or 5 %. 3% is considered Full Employment.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
Try to find the UR for educated workers. I think the last I saw it, it was at 4 or 5 %. 3% is considered Full Employment.
I'm going to have to find it again, there was a graph that showed unemployment by education level - it showed pretty much what you say, the more educated you are the more likely you are to have a job... But less than a third of Americans have a college degree (according to the 2002 census, cited from here). Are we supposed to ignore that the less educated are jobless?
 

BendBrewer

Well-Known Member
No, don't ignore that fact but recognize it. If you have an education, your chances of having a job increase dramatically. It wasn't too long ago that a guy could finish HS and get a job at the mill of factory the next day. Those days are probably gone for good. The fact that WalMart is Americas largest employer is telling, in a scary way.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
I mean, the situation is looking wayyyyyy too similar to the Great Depression and the 1937 double dip (that was caused via Austerity measures, amazing how the Very Serious People in Washington ignore history completely)...

The U.S. government can't begin making cuts until we've hit full employment. Until then, the economy wont be able to take the shock of trillions of dollars of government spending disappearing into thin air; Until then, Austerity measures are a recipe for disaster.

Unemployment, however it is handled, must be priority #1 for lawmakers.
 

forgetfulpenguin

Active Member
Want to cut unemployment in the US: Have the government hire people to fix the (literally) crumbling infrastructure.

Look at all the construction the government commissioned just to create work during the great depression.

Holy shit maybe we could hire people to fix our infrastructure before it fails and costs even more to fix!

Sorry not trying to harsh anyones buzz with exclamation marks it just always seemed like an obvious thing to do in this situation. The infrastructure needs fixing now and people need jobs now.

[video=youtube;vn8TQuYkY_g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn8TQuYkY_g[/video]youtube.com/watch?v=vn8TQuYkY_g

It will take more then that to avert utter doom but hey it's a good start.

Also if I remember a government agency distributed pamphlets about converting farm machinery to use wood gas during a major gas shortage. So teaching people how to do useful things like that is another good investment though less related to unemployment.
 

sync0s

Well-Known Member
A good portion of an unemployment rate is actually lazy scum. I am a manager and I am have been looking to hire about 5 people for the past month.. nothing.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
When I hire new people for the shitty farm job, i like to start with the people who hold PH'ds first, they last a day, then we move down the those with MBA's, they last 2 days, then the regular college crowds, some can stick it out for a week, but most just feel they can find a better job that isn't so physical, by the time I have found a good ranch hand he is usually a high school kid, or someone who has some experience doing the job. I take the experienced high school kid over PH'd educated professors any day of the week.
 

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
American joblessness has reached heartbreaking levels for largely one reason: Who in their right mind in today’s highly uncertain tax, regulatory, monetary, health care, and geopolitical environment would take the risk of striking out with a new venture? New enterprises flourish in a climate of abundant liquidity and confidence—exactly the opposite of today’s conditions. Everyone in the risk capital community, moreover, knows that the likelihood of a new venture achieving a public stock offering in today’s climate of caution and pessimism is strikingly low. That’s why risk capital is so hard to come by. And forget about using government funds to pick the innovative winners from the losers. That’s a fool’s errand.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/small-beautiful_571631.html
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Want to cut unemployment in the US: Have the government hire people to fix the (literally) crumbling infrastructure.

Look at all the construction the government commissioned just to create work during the great depression.

Holy shit maybe we could hire people to fix our infrastructure before it fails and costs even more to fix!

Sorry not trying to harsh anyones buzz with exclamation marks it just always seemed like an obvious thing to do in this situation. The infrastructure needs fixing now and people need jobs now.


It will take more then that to avert utter doom but hey it's a good start.

Also if I remember a government agency distributed pamphlets about converting farm machinery to use wood gas during a major gas shortage. So teaching people how to do useful things like that is another good investment though less related to unemployment.
Its a good idea, but where will government get all the money to pay for this? We are already $1.6 trillion behind this year alone.
 

BendBrewer

Well-Known Member
Its a good idea, but where will government get all the money to pay for this? We are already $1.6 trillion behind this year alone.
Eliminate Bush Tax Cuts. That's what got us into this hole. It's amazing how many people forget that.
 

jeff f

New Member
when will you libtards realize that the govt doesnt create prosperity? never has, never will.

prosperity is created by private citizens finding a need and filling it. kind of like the rabbit folks that just got fined and shut down.

mame, you are the biggest pusher of bullshit around. spend spend spend to get out of debt, raise employment, fix global warming bah blah blah. it dont work.

how many fucking examples to you guys need? your keynsian bullshit is just that, bullshit. you plowed a couple three trillion in the economy and it hasnt done shit. and it wont.

deregulation needs to start everywhere. from healthcare, to oil, to rabbit farms. let people do their thing and the economy will turn around.

have any of you ever tried to start a business? now a days, just to do something small like a carpentry business you need to pay for permits, inpectors, outragous types of insurance, some places you have to take bullshit tests, i even had to have my vehicle inspected one time. and you havent even pounded a nail in yet.

the govt is stiffling everyone from the big companies to the little guy just trying to send his kids through college.

to paraphrase reagan, the more the planers fail, the more the planners plan. insane
 

jeff f

New Member
all you have to do is look at recent govt boondoggles. the stupid volt car, using corn for fuel, the stimulus 1 2 3 and 4, the post office, global warming, and the list goes on.

all done by those "super smart" folks in the capitals.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
Spend now, pay it off later. Simple IMO.

I mean, national debt is obviously becoming an issue - but I'm of the firm opinion that dealing with debt comes second to jobs. More jobs means more revenue, a faster expanding economy, more investor/consumer confidence, etc... All of this makes it easier to pay off the national debt(which really isn't as much of a crisis as the Republicans would have you believe BTW)...

That's not to say I dont think the national debt isn't a problem, either. If I were in power(lol) I'd propose a short term spending package (stimulus) and attach it to cuts set to kick in slowly and at least a decade from now(so stimulus now, along with a package of cuts/taxes set to take effect in 2020). This is an easy sell politically and it really could work... With the U.S. economy moving at full capacity again, a couple trillion in cuts combined with tax reform, ending the Bush tax cuts, etc - the debt problem can be solved without undermining the recovery; Cutting too soon or too harshly has serious potential to derail the already fragile recovery.

I had some graphs to post but they wont fit, does anyone have any fixes to this besides making images smaller in paint and resaving them all blurry-like?
 

BendBrewer

Well-Known Member
Well we know Reganomics doesn't work. You can take that trickle down shit and bury it. It's dead.

We just had a Conservative drive this country into the ground with Conservative policies. We know that shit don't work.

Fact, Federal Taxes are too low. Bush's Conservative attempts failed and need to be eliminated. Clinton had it right. Facts back this up.
 

jeff f

New Member
A good portion of an unemployment rate is actually lazy scum. I am a manager and I am have been looking to hire about 5 people for the past month.. nothing.

i offered a kid a job the other day.

first question he asked, who am i doing it for...i answered
second question, how much is the pay....i answered
third question, how many hours....i hesitantly answered
fourth question, is it under the table.....i said, motherfucker you dont want a job do you?

he says, well i draw unemployment and have 46 weeks left so i dont want to mess up my draws.

i hung up.

why would anyone work when they can collect for 99 weeks?
 
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