Democrats Started the Ku Klux Klan

mame

Well-Known Member
I'll chime in.

Almost every dude I've ever met through my dad (mostly 40-50 240+ lb gorilla redneck types... so the kinds of people you'd expect to join the KKK if it was any any way significant) vote red... Everytime I try to argue politics with them the argument starts out with them praising Sarah Palin (seriously) and the Tea Party and then eventually devolves into them yelling that "no matter what my charts and graphs say," they're "never votin' fer a damn nigger!"...

Obviously this is anecdotal evidence but there really isn't much else... Teabaggers aren't likely to openly admit any racism/prejudice in a survey so there isn't much more evidence to submit... Except ofc the infamous Southern Strategy. Doesn't look good IMO.
 

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
Why don't you go ask your friends why they voted the way they did?

My father is a retired Fighter Pilot who never voted for a Democrat in his entire life until he voted for Obama over McCain. I asked him why. He said, "Intelligence". Some people still value that.
I wonder he wants that vote back now?

What a disaster this preening ass clown has been.

did you ask them ???? and did it matter seeing the outcome...????
I don't need to ask a question when the answer is so obvious.

The Liberal myth is that the bigots in the South fled the Democratic Party after LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act. That is a half-truth.

Many bigots never left the Democratic party. They revered the party of FDR so much that they could not sever themselves from it, regardless of their prejudices.

That is why the South did not flip to the Republicans in the election immediately following the bill signing.

The Democratic Party is not immune from prejudice and bigotry any more than the Republican Party is. Portraying it any other way is dishonest.
 

BendBrewer

Well-Known Member
What a disaster this preening ass clown has been.
How so? Do you have specific examples of how Obama has made your life worse. Clown? Disaster? Are you able to articulate any of your disdain? If so I would like to hear it. Thanks!
 

mame

Well-Known Member
The Democratic Party is not immune from prejudice and bigotry any more than the Republican Party is. Portraying it any other way is dishonest.
I agree with this to an extent. It's true the Democratic party is not immune to bigotry, just as it is not immune from corruption (Bjocavich? spelling... Illinois guy) but to act like the Republican party isn't at the very least more attractive to bigots (whether racist, homophobic, whatever) or to act like Republicans haven't used this attraction to their advantage (see: the southern strategy) is also dishonest. The whole argument seems to be in a revolving door...

Conservative: "insert racist comment here"
Liberal: "WTF race baiting to win votes!"
Conservative: "WTF race baiting? Not me! That's you using the race card!"
Liberal: "but you just said..."

and around and around....
 

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
How so? Do you have specific examples of how Obama has made your life worse. Clown? Disaster? Are you able to articulate any of your disdain? If so I would like to hear it. Thanks!
I have many examples. The threads in this forum are oozing with my position. To borrow your own statement, you can look it up if you want.

However, I am not completely unreasonable so I will give you a concrete example.

Thanks to the policies of the disaster clown, a recession is descending into a depression.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303657404576363984173620692.html

He is proving himself to be an incompetent poseur.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
basically the entire country went bluer in 2008 than they did in 2004.

even utah, liberal bastion that it is, went much bluer in 2008 than in 2004.

but huge swaths of the south did not. i wonder why?

2008_voting_shift_by_county.jpg

i mean, arizona is easy to explain: it was mccain's home state. but why did obama outperform kerry by about 4-5% nationally, yet underperform in such large areas of the south by wide margins, often higher than 20%?

johnnyo has posited that, well, those folks are conservative. my reply, and utah isn't?

so i don't think it is the 'conservative' explanation.

anyone else care to posit a guess?
 

londonfog

Well-Known Member
just look into the South and its history...some things never change in the poorest most uneducated part of the USA
 

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
Founded in 1866 as a Tennessee social club, the Ku Klux Klan spread into nearly every Southern state, launching a ‘reign of terror’ against Republican Party leaders, black and white. In effect, the Klan was a military force serving the interests of the Democratic Party, the planter class, and all those who desired the restoration of white supremacy
I don't suppose you care that the current democratic party didn't exist until 1928 and everything you posted is an outright lie? The democratic-republican party that you're referring to as the democratic party in no way resembles the current democratic party. They ran on a "states rights" platform. Does that sound like the democrats?

I'm not sure why conservatives think inventing random lies helps their insane political beliefs become more credible.
 

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
The Democrats used to be great and stood for great ideals, look at FDR and JFK now they have changed.
You think FDR had great ideals? That's kinda surprising tbh. I completely agree, just didn't think you'd say that.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
I have many examples. The threads in this forum are oozing with my position. To borrow your own statement, you can look it up if you want.

However, I am not completely unreasonable so I will give you a concrete example.

Thanks to the policies of the disaster clown, a recession is descending into a depression.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303657404576363984173620692.html

He is proving himself to be an incompetent poseur.
I agree with a lot of what that article says, actually. But I was under the impression that you did not agree with these sorts of positions? I mean, the article is claiming Obama is incompetant and actually makes a decent case in some ways but a lot of the reasoning is weak(or wrong) or, in the case of a few passages, the author concedes the Keynesian view to be correct.... Which seems to be something you've overlooked, as I was under the impression you were among the "anti-keynesians" on these boards.

I'll break it down:

first,
The drop in GDP growth to just 1.8% in the first quarter of 2011, from 3.1% in the final quarter of last year, understates the extent of the decline. Two-thirds of that 1.8% went into business inventories rather than sales to consumers or other final buyers. This means that final sales growth was at an annual rate of just 0.6% and the actual quarterly increase was just 0.15%—dangerously close to no rise at all. A sustained expansion cannot be built on inventory investment. It takes final sales to induce businesses to hire and to invest.

The picture is even gloomier if we look in more detail. Estimates of monthly GDP indicate that the only growth in the first quarter of 2011 was from February to March. After a temporary rise in March, the economy began sliding again in April, with declines in real wages, in durable-goods orders and manufacturing production, in existing home sales, and in real per-capita disposable incomes. It is not surprising that the index of leading indicators fell in April, only the second decline since it began to rise in the spring of 2009.
Good points. However, it is entirely possible that the worse-than-usual report was only as bad as it was because of world events that took place during that timeframe. There was also the run-up in gas prices during that time that depressed demand, etc.... These are disturbances that aren't going to happen every quarter (crude went from $114 to ~$91 ATM, Japan's earthquake+Tsunami disaster didn't repeat itself this quarter, etc). Basically, my point here is that I feel like the author is trying to imply that Q1's report will be the new norm and that unemployment will continue to rise and I feel like that just isn't likely to be the case, QE3 would be more likely than continued weak growth reports IMHO. I think regardless of what any of us believe, the Fed is not going to stand idle in the face of dangerously slow growth; They're monetarists after all, that's what they're supposed to do. As of now, the Fed expects the second half of this year to be a good time for growth... If it's not, expect QE3.

Now, this is where it gets a little hairy...
The administration's most obvious failure was its misguided fiscal policies: the cash-for-clunkers subsidy for car buyers, the tax credit for first-time home buyers, and the $830 billion "stimulus" package. Cash-for-clunkers gave a temporary boost to motor-vehicle production but had no lasting impact on the economy. The home-buyer credit stimulated the demand for homes only temporarily.
So Cash for clunkers boosted motor-vehicle production, but only for a while? And the home buyer credit stimulated demand for homes, but only temporarily? HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM Sounds to me like those programs worked while they were active, right? Keep 'em going untill full employment is reached. That's the point of stimulus spending, it's temporary.
As for the "stimulus" package, both its size and structure were inadequate to offset the enormous decline in aggregate demand. The fall in household wealth by the end of 2008 reduced the annual level of consumer spending by more than $500 billion. The drop in home building subtracted another $200 billion from GDP. The total GDP shortfall was therefore more than $700 billion. The Obama stimulus package that started at less than $300 billion in 2009 and reached a maximum of $400 billion in 2010 wouldn't have been big enough to fill the $700 billion annual GDP gap even if every dollar of the stimulus raised GDP by a dollar.
This is the best part.

Notice the bolded part, that's the keynesian argument. I really shouldn't have to say more here, but the obvious solution is more stimulus. Funny how that works?
In fact, each dollar of extra deficit added much less than a dollar to GDP. Experience shows that the most cost-effective form of temporary fiscal stimulus is direct government spending. The most obvious way to achieve that in 2009 was to repair and replace the military equipment used in Iraq and Afghanistan that would otherwise have to be done in the future. But the Obama stimulus had nothing for the Defense Department. Instead, President Obama allowed the Democratic leadership in Congress to design a hodgepodge package of transfers to state and local governments, increased transfers to individuals, temporary tax cuts for lower-income taxpayers, etc. So we got a bigger deficit without economic growth.
First bold, amen. I could've lived with military investment as stimulus but wouldn't you prefer roads, rail, etc? Either way, we agree on one thing... direct government spending is the most effective form of stimulus.

Second bold, there was growth but not enough - so the author is trying to mislead a little bit here... That goes back to the argument that the stimulus was poorly structured and was not enough, which is the Keynesian argument.

Overall, pretty good paragraph. Mostly accurate too, maybe WSJ isn't so bad after all... Or maybe this guy isn't a regular columnist with them?
A second cause of the continued economic weakness is the president's emphasis on increasing tax rates. Although Mr. Obama grudgingly agreed to continue the Bush tax cuts for 2011 and 2012, his budget this year repeated his call for higher tax rates on upper-income individuals and multinational corporations. With that higher-tax cloud hanging over them, it is not surprising that individuals and businesses do not make the entrepreneurial investments and business expansions that would cause a solid recovery.

A third problem stems from the administration's lack of an explicit plan to deal with future budget deficits and with the exploding national debt. This creates uncertainty about future tax increases and interest rates that impedes spending by households and investment by businesses.
I'm breaking partway into this next paragraph because I want to touch on a very important point. This "confidence" and "certainty" that he is referring to is known as the "confidence fairy" among those of us who actually pay attention to evidence. As we've gone over on these boards several times, Austerity is not expansionary. Obama's team(at least seemingly, wont know for sure until re-election or not whether his rightward shift is political or if it's real) and the Republicans believe in this confidence fairy; They believe that balancing the budget will restore "business confidence" and spur investment... In reality, it just worsens the demand problem - thus worsening our slump.

My position has always been to work a long term Austerity plan along with short term stimulus spending. If Austerity is to happen it needs to include tax increases as well as spending cuts... But I'm not an advocate of Austerity and so I disagree with the position Obama has taken. So the author is sort of right here, mainly in that Obama shouldn't be focused on tax increases as the author said but he also shouldn't be focused on immediate cuts and the author is wrong in beleiving in the voodoo economics of the "confidence fairy".
The national debt has jumped to 69% of GDP this year, from 40% in 2008. It is projected by the Congressional Budget Office to reach more than 85% by the end of the decade, and to keep rising after that.
Okay? He just threw this in here to remind everyone the U.S. is in debt, I guess... But it's been worse - debt reached 124% of GDP post WW2. We'll be fine in the short term as long as we deal with the unemployment issue, which is costing billions if not trillions in economic activity each year(which would generate revenue to help balance the budget!).
The reality is even worse since ObamaCare alone will cost more than $1 trillion in its first 10 years. The president's boast that his health legislation would not "add a dime" to the national debt was possible only by combining that increased spending with proposed new taxes and with projected cuts in Medicare spending that will never occur.
Repealling Obamacare adds ~100 billion to the deficit each year... Sounds like it's going to be saving money rather than cost it to me... It's advertised to save even more in between 2020-29. Let's say those taxes and cuts never happen... How much will it cost per year then? The medicare cuts were, what, $500 billion over 10 years? So assuming that never happens that's 50 billion a year extra from 2010-2020 on the deficit... So? Longterm Obamacare bends the curve and so after 2030 or so there will be net savings regardless of what happens to the money "stolen" from medicare. You can argue that government intervention cannot produce savings but to refute that point I only need to point to France, Germany, UK, etc... All of which pay HALF as much per person as we do for healthcare.
Finally, there is the administration's incoherent position on the international value of the dollar. The Treasury repeats the slogan that "a strong dollar is good for America" while watching the real value of the dollar fall by 7% over the past year, and while urging the Chinese to allow the dollar to fall more quickly relative to the yuan. The lack of a consistent dollar policy adds to the uncertainty that limits business investment and hiring.
Back to the whole "confidence fairy" agument here... sigh.

The weaker dollar has helped manufactoring, and likely helped exports in general(haven't actually checked this claim, but generally a weaker dollar leads to stronger exports in the short term).
The economy will continue to suffer until there is a coherent and favorable economic policy. That means bringing long-term deficits under control without raising marginal tax rates—by cutting government outlays and by limiting the tax expenditures that substitute for direct government spending. It means lower tax rates on businesses and individuals to spur entrepreneurship and investment. And it means reforming Social Security and Medicare to protect the living standards of future retirees while limiting the cost to future taxpayers.

All of these things are doable. But the Obama administration has not done them and shows no inclination to do them in the future.
And this is where the authors agenda is exposed in full. Lets see... Cut taxes, cut government spending, "reform" SS and medicare(he likely backs Ryan's plan), etc.

Sure, all of those things are doable but should we do them -at least in the short term? No. Long term? Sure, deficits, tax reform, entitlement reform... But right now we need jobs.
 

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
I would like to start things off by complementing you. Usually when I offer a source to back up a point, it is ignored. Not only did you read the article, you took the time to comment on it.

I tip my hat to you, Sir. And I mean that sincerely.

I agree with a lot of what that article says, actually. But I was under the impression that you did not agree with these sorts of positions? I mean, the article is claiming Obama is incompetant and actually makes a decent case in some ways but a lot of the reasoning is weak(or wrong) or, in the case of a few passages, the author concedes the Keynesian view to be correct.... Which seems to be something you've overlooked, as I was under the impression you were among the "anti-keynesians" on these boards.
I am 75% anti-Keynesian, at least. The article is concluded with a clear anti-Keynesian tone.

The economy will continue to suffer until there is a coherent and favorable economic policy. That means bringing long-term deficits under control without raising marginal tax rates—by cutting government outlays and by limiting the tax expenditures that substitute for direct government spending. It means lower tax rates on businesses and individuals to spur entrepreneurship and investment. And it means reforming Social Security and Medicare to protect the living standards of future retirees while limiting the cost to future taxpayers.

All of these things are doable. But the Obama administration has not done them and shows no inclination to do them in the future.
Now to your points:

I'll break it down:

first,
Good points. However, it is entirely possible that the worse-than-usual report was only as bad as it was because of world events that took place during that timeframe. There was also the run-up in gas prices during that time that depressed demand, etc.... These are disturbances that aren't going to happen every quarter (crude went from $114 to ~$91 ATM, Japan's earthquake+Tsunami disaster didn't repeat itself this quarter, etc). Basically, my point here is that I feel like the author is trying to imply that Q1's report will be the new norm and that unemployment will continue to rise and I feel like that just isn't likely to be the case, QE3 would be more likely than continued weak growth reports IMHO. I think regardless of what any of us believe, the Fed is not going to stand idle in the face of dangerously slow growth; They're monetarists after all, that's what they're supposed to do. As of now, the Fed expects the second half of this year to be a good time for growth... If it's not, expect QE3.
I agree that many events were out of the Administration's control. But many things were not. It's the bad overall policy which is the culprit, not the unexpected turmoil which happens resulting from events regardless who is in charge.

And yes, now they are making noises about QE3, but this is not sustainable.

Eventually interest rates will have to rise and the longer we wait the more pain there will be.

Bernanke, by his own admission, does not know how to deal with this. Obama chose badly.

Now, this is where it gets a little hairy...

So Cash for clunkers boosted motor-vehicle production, but only for a while? And the home buyer credit stimulated demand for homes, but only temporarily? HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM Sounds to me like those programs worked while they were active, right? Keep 'em going untill full employment is reached. That's the point of stimulus spending, it's temporary.
All those programs did was encourage people to make purchases they would have made anyway EARLIER than they originally planned. They did not stimulate any spending which would have otherwise not occurred.

Both those programs were failures.

Those programs were the government interfering with the natural flow of the markets, which is the WORST thing the government could possibly do. Meaning the Administration learned NOTHING from the housing market crash.

This is the best part.

Notice the bolded part, that's the keynesian argument. I really shouldn't have to say more here, but the obvious solution is more stimulus. Funny how that works?

First bold, amen. I could've lived with military investment as stimulus but wouldn't you prefer roads, rail, etc? Either way, we agree on one thing... direct government spending is the most effective form of stimulus.

Second bold, there was growth but not enough - so the author is trying to mislead a little bit here... That goes back to the argument that the stimulus was poorly structured and was not enough, which is the Keynesian argument.

Overall, pretty good paragraph. Mostly accurate too, maybe WSJ isn't so bad after all... Or maybe this guy isn't a regular columnist with them?
I took that to mean was that if we had to have a stimulus, it should not have been squandared as it was. It should have been used to actually boost the economy.

In my opinion, there should have been no stimulus.

I'm breaking partway into this next paragraph because I want to touch on a very important point. This "confidence" and "certainty" that he is referring to is known as the "confidence fairy" among those of us who actually pay attention to evidence. As we've gone over on these boards several times, Austerity is not expansionary. Obama's team(at least seemingly, wont know for sure until re-election or not whether his rightward shift is political or if it's real) and the Republicans believe in this confidence fairy; They believe that balancing the budget will restore "business confidence" and spur investment... In reality, it just worsens the demand problem - thus worsening our slump.
There is no confidence fairy. There is uncertainty thanks to unncessary and burdensome regulations, and the fear of future taxation; or there is confidence because the government was smart enough to get out of the way and allow the markets to function as they should.

My position has always been to work a long term Austerity plan along with short term stimulus spending. If Austerity is to happen it needs to include tax increases as well as spending cuts... But I'm not an advocate of Austerity and so I disagree with the position Obama has taken. So the author is sort of right here, mainly in that Obama shouldn't be focused on tax increases as the author said but he also shouldn't be focused on immediate cuts and the author is wrong in beleiving in the voodoo economics of the "confidence fairy".
It's too late for that. Drastic measures are needed NOW.

Don't get me wrong because I do not lay the blame strictly at the feet of the Democrats. This has been decades in the making.

But the time to act is NOW.

And the President is voting 'present.'

Okay? He just threw this in here to remind everyone the U.S. is in debt, I guess... But it's been worse - debt reached 124% of GDP post WW2. We'll be fine in the short term as long as we deal with the unemployment issue, which is costing billions if not trillions in economic activity each year(which would generate revenue to help balance the budget!).
We are not in the same position as we were in 1945. At the end of WWII, the U.S. emerged having lost relatively little and gaining a disproportionate share of influence.

Post war, America was selling and EVERYBODY else was buying.

Things are far, far different now.

Repealling Obamacare adds ~100 billion to the deficit each year... Sounds like it's going to be saving money rather than cost it to me... It's advertised to save even more in between 2020-29. Let's say those taxes and cuts never happen... How much will it cost per year then? The medicare cuts were, what, $500 billion over 10 years? So assuming that never happens that's 50 billion a year extra from 2010-2020 on the deficit... So? Longterm Obamacare bends the curve and so after 2030 or so there will be net savings regardless of what happens to the money "stolen" from medicare. You can argue that government intervention cannot produce savings but to refute that point I only need to point to France, Germany, UK, etc... All of which pay HALF as much per person as we do for healthcare.

Back to the whole "confidence fairy" agument here... sigh.
Each day we see more evidence that MessiahCare was a bill of goods. We see the things the Scarecrow (Pelosi) told us we would see only after the unread monstrosity was passed.

Well, now we see. And we don't like it.

Hell's bells, even proponents of the bill don't like it and have applied and received exemptions from it.

The weaker dollar has helped manufactoring, and likely helped exports in general(haven't actually checked this claim, but generally a weaker dollar leads to stronger exports in the short term).
Then why hasn't a dollar on life-support helped?

And this is where the authors agenda is exposed in full. Lets see... Cut taxes, cut government spending, "reform" SS and medicare(he likely backs Ryan's plan), etc.

Sure, all of those things are doable but should we do them -at least in the short term? No. Long term? Sure, deficits, tax reform, entitlement reform... But right now we need jobs.
We won't have jobs until the markets are confident that they won't be double-crossed.

Obviously, this is a chicken/egg argument. But I say first you must see the demand before you worry about supply.
 

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
basically the entire country went bluer in 2008 than they did in 2004.

even utah, liberal bastion that it is, went much bluer in 2008 than in 2004.

but huge swaths of the south did not. i wonder why?

View attachment 1668152

i mean, arizona is easy to explain: it was mccain's home state. but why did obama outperform kerry by about 4-5% nationally, yet underperform in such large areas of the south by wide margins, often higher than 20%?

johnnyo has posited that, well, those folks are conservative. my reply, and utah isn't?

so i don't think it is the 'conservative' explanation.

anyone else care to posit a guess?
All that map proves is that a higher percentage of voters in certain regions were not idiots, nothing more.

Maybe they were immune to white guilt.

Maybe the Hopey-Changey thing did not convince them.

Maybe they saw Obama for the inexperienced hack that he was.

Something tells me that your map will look considerably different after the next election. :clap:
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
All that map proves is that a higher percentage of voters in certain regions were not idiots, nothing more.

Maybe they were immune to white guilt.

Maybe the Hopey-Changey thing did not convince them.

Maybe they saw Obama for the inexperienced hack that he was.
yes, the most uneducated swaths of the country who often live in squalor were "not idiots" while the more educated parts of the country, who live in relative affluence, were.

Something tells me that your map will look considerably different after the next election. :clap:
it can be pure red and we will still not have to endure a bachmann or romney presidency. such was the margin of president obama's victory.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
what i was driving at with the map, after all, is that those areas replete with candidates for the recruiting efforts of the kkk all seemed to go MORE RED, while the rest of the nation went MORE BLUE.

democrats may have started the kkk, but the republican party, especially its far right wing factions, are where the kkk recruits can currently be found.

are there still bigots in the democratic party? you betcha.

are there more in another party? you betcha.

one party currently dominates in drawing votes nowadays by catering to xenophobes and bigots.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Johnny O is a Herman Cain man...Pizza and Freedom..no Muslims
johnny does say we are are in a holy war with islam right now.

although, if i had to vote for one of the current crop of GOPers, herman cain would be #2 or 3, right behind gary johnson and possibly romney.

actually, make that #3 or 4 now that huntsman is in the mix.
 

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
Johnny O is a Herman Cain man...Pizza and Freedom..no Muslims
I would not go as far as to say that.

I like Cain. I do.

I contributed to him.

But he will not be the nominee.

If it is who I suspect it will be, you guys will have plenty of paltry things to complain about for the next decade. While the country recovers, then thrives.

Because he has presided over a relatively healthy state economy while the rest of the nation struggles by comparison.

Although if either Cain or Bachman were the running mate I would rejoice.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
I would not go as far as to say that.

I like Cain. I do.

I contributed to him.

But he will not be the nominee.

If it is who I suspect it will be, you guys will have plenty of paltry things to complain about for the next decade. While the country recovers, then thrives.

Because he has presided over a relatively healthy state economy while the rest of the nation struggles by comparison.

Although if either Cain or Bachman were the running mate I would rejoice.
you think perry is going to get it? or are you referring to romney?

and the whole rejoicing at bachmann thing scares me a little, johnny. that woman is nucking futs.
 
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