roots need oxygen right?...

[DIYer]

...well that fact is starting to make me wonder. Am i giving my roots enough fresh oxygen? I grow in 5 gallon buckets, sure the roots are in the air inside the bucket, but is that enough?.. i don't lift those bucket lids often,.. plus when a bucket, or any chamber for that matter, gets pretty filled up with root mass, like mine do, im thinking maybe that mass needs to breath a lot more then say a 5 gallon container with a lid on it would let it.

I'm wondering about hooking air pumps to my buckets, do the math and figure out how to, in one misting cycle, cycle them full of 5gal of fresh air,.. which would no doubt dry them out a little bit faster, and to compensate fully you'd have to water a tad more,.. but ya thats my HIGHdea for the day. What you think? Anyone already do something to exchange the root chamber air?


EDIT:
I run a 14, 5gal bucket system, that's 70gal or root area, or 265 liters,.. so maybe say an AAPA45L Air Pump, 45L per min. should pump the air out of all 14 buckets every 5.8 min if i kept it running 24/7,.. 20W it'd cost around $14 a month to run 24/7.. worth it? ... im now worried this would make my room humid as a mofo though, lol.. and currently my ladies enjoy a low 35% RH during flowering.. maybe less high a rate of turn over on the air exchange is in order,.. thoughts?

EDIT EDIT:
actually,.. now that i think about it more,.. why not suck air from the buckets rather then pump air into them,.. and mind you im talking a very small constant amount of air. That way you could suck out the humidity rather then fill your grow space with it. Might not smell too good to do that.

EDIT EDIT EDIT:
3rd edits the charm right?.. ok so if the air being SUCKED out of the buckets is going to be humid, smell like weed, and need to be carbon filtered before sent out of the grow room,.. why not just hook an air line to each bucket, and run all 14 lines to the duck on my Can33 Carbon Filter? So instead of de-odorizing the air in the grow room, id be sucking air from the grow room through my buckets first, then through the Can filter,.. might have to choke it down a bit though, that could be too much air flow through the buckets,.. but talk about efficiency!...
..and even if you're not deodorizing/pumping out your grow space air, im wondering if sucking humid, oxygen deprived root zone air to another location couldn't be used to help clone.

Our leaves are making fresh oxygen from the carbon dioxide in our grow rooms,.. if we're deodorizing and removing that highly oxygenated air from the grow room already, why not have it pass the roots on its way out of town?

 

[exploder90]

I think you may be over-thinking this whole thing. You can never give the roots TOO much Oxygen. The more the better. You've got a pretty big setup there, but you definitely don't want to suck the air out...

 

[DIYer]

Aero is meant for over thinking but that aside, why do i definitely not want to suck the air out?.. Better question, how could anyone actually suck all the air out of a 5 gallon bucket? Sucking air from the buckets, very slowly, is obviously going to suck air into the buckets from somewhere else. I'm thinking suck from the bottom, through an air stone, which would obviously draw fresh air in through the net pot in the top of the bucket.

 

[exploder90]

I get your theory here, but I don't think it's possible to suck air through an air stone that is sitting in water. You don't want to grow your roots in stagnate water.

 

[DIYer]

who said my roots were in water, let alone stagnant water? there very much on the bottom of a relatively dry 5 gal bucket bottom, no more then surface wetness where the stones would sit. As for sucking air through an air stone that would work in reverse just like it works normally... im not sure how to ensure im drawing the same amount of air from each bucket though. This would require a lot of air line,.. kind of thinking any air sucking source wouldn't be fair across all the lines...

 

[Heisenberg]

Very interesting DIYer. Please keep us updated on your findings.

 

[cannabineer]

I would not suck, but I would blow.
Specifically, i'd pump air through standing water with an air stone, ten pipe it into your root chamber/buckets. That way your introduced air is at humidity and won't stress the roots. My 2¢ ... cn

<edit> The plants are converting ~350 ppm carbon dioxide into plant mass. Even if they were very efficient at scavenging that (and they're not), I do not see the oxygen increment being more than that.

 

[DIYer]

i use to own a carbon dioxide ppm meter, till i dropped it one day, but back when it worked my homes carbon dioxide reading was more like 700ppm,.. but im in a pretty big city so that 'helps' with c02 i guess, ha.. After a few months of it never much changing (except when id walk into the room, we our the best boost of c02 ever for our plants BTW) i stopped worrying about my c02 levels completely. All they need IMO is a fresh exchange of air above,.. and now im starting to think below, the roots.

im really feeling like more of a sucker with this though cannabeineer,.. see if i 'blow', especially if i blew humid air into the buckets then a lot is going to come out of it, i would really be adding to my flowering ladies RH level, which as ive read is not ideal for thc production. Blowing would be a whoooole lot easier i admit, just the right size air pump and im done,.. and sucking adds in needing to remove the humid air from the room, and treating it for smell before i do,.. but i think i can do it the hard way and get the best of both worlds. I like the idea of not buying more, just using the suction from the carbon filter fan ive got going 24/7 already,.. maybe,.. but man is this going to be tricky however i do it. I really have no idea how to govern the suction on all lines,.. it would be nice if i could measure it on every line too, so as to be sure im not over drying,.. actually to have at least one line adjustable suction pressure would be nice, then i could play with different levels of root zone air evacuation. Maybe have a big pump that sucks the buckets clean in a short period of time,.. right before the misters go off,.. or right after,.. whatever would be most helpful timing for the roots. Thoughts?

Does this not make sense to anyone? I'd hate to do all this or nothing, but it seems to make sense to me. Roots need oxygen,.. they struggles for it in hard soil, and overall growth is effected by it. Hydro is better sure, but to date my roots, (and im betting a lot of others), don't even get as much as a bucket lift there whole life cycle in my grow room,.. to date anyway. ...but does anyone think the air they have in a pretty sealed off bucket is plenty good enough for a few months?..

As for pumping in humid air though, thats a good point. Maybe i could make the suction come from a humid place,.. i have runoff 'stuff' below the buckets (still haven't really settled on what i want down there in my DTW setup yet), but it is humid, and i like your idea of sucking in air through a stone

ya know,.. if i could in fact reroute my Can33 carbon filters suction through all 14 buckets that are evenly spaced around that room, you'd think maybe that should really add to its effectiveness. i wonder sometimes if its placement in any one area is an ideal thing..

anyone got any ideas on equalizing suction over 14 different length lines?...might not be needed though if one big suck is used, say over 60 sec to empty 5gal of old air.. hmm... so many options.. thoughts?

was reading this one oxygen in h20,.. http://www.hydroempire.com/store/hydroponic-oxygen.php
reeeally makes me think they need a lot more from whats around them then we could ever give them in a solution

 

[DIYer]

Straight from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroponics

Oxygen in the rhizosphere (root zone) is necessary for healthy plant growth. As aeroponics is conducted in air combined with micro-droplets of water, almost any plant can grow to maturity in air with a plentiful supply of oxygen, water and nutrients.

Some growers favor aeroponic systems over other methods of hydroponics because the increased aeration of nutrient solution delivers more oxygen to plant roots, stimulating growth and helping to prevent pathogen formation.

Clean air supplies oxygen which is an excellent purifier for plants and the aeroponic environment. For natural growth to occur the plant must have unrestricted access to air. Plants must be allowed to grow in a natural manner for successful physiological development. The more confining the plant support becomes, the greater incidence of increasing disease pressure of the plant and the aeroponic system.

Some researchers have used aeroponics to study the effects of root zone gas composition on plant performance. Soffer and Burger [Soffer et al., 1988] studied the effects of dissolved oxygen concentrations on the formation of adventitious roots in what they termed &#8220;aero-hydroponics.&#8221; They utilized a 3-tier hydro and aero system, in which three separate zones were formed within the root area. The ends of the roots were submerged in the nutrient reservoir, while the middle of the root section received nutrient mist and the upper portion was above the mist. Their results showed that dissolved O2 is essential to root formation, but went on to show that for the three O2 concentrations tested, the number of roots and root length were always greater in the central misted section than either the submersed section or the un-misted section. Even at the lowest concentration, the misted section rooted successfully.

 

[scroglodyte]

just drill lots of large holes in your buckets sides. this is gardening.......not advanced bio-chemistry.......enjoy!!

 

[DIYer]

do you even know what HPA is, let alone what effect "large holes" drilled into a bucket would have?

 

[scroglodyte]

LOL.....soory.......misread. it would let tha wahtar out? lol

 

[Trichy Bastard]

After reading the article, it would seem the roots don't grow well if they're not getting enough O2. So, I suppose you can use that as some sort of indication. Most proper aero roots look amazing... Perhaps you could try using an air pump sitting in the grow room, where it would get the oxygenated air from the plant leaves, and split it's flow off to all of the buckets, in the buckets you could also have another "exhaust tube" that would work by the pressure filling the bucket from the air pump. This exhaust tube could connect to a larger one that leads outside. A single 1" tube through the wall shouldn't be much. Also, you could probably consider to just quickly evacuate the buckets once per day, like right before lights out somehow. That way it wouldn't constantly dry out the roots, but a full exchange every 24 hours is probably the most it would need anyway- if at all. Perhaps a shop vac connected to all the buckets that runs for a couple minutes just before lights out on a timer?

 

[DIYer]

That article from the hydro store, or the wiki link?.. hopefully their both not just full of crap info, lol. So hard to tell what to believe. I feel like a possible sucker every time i click buy, but i just clicked it again. Bought a nice air pump and some micro-pore diffusers to aerate my res, and test the idea of pumping air in my buckets too. It's got 12 outlets, 110L per min, so it'll more then do the job. I'm thinking thats a good idea you had for the right setup, to pump air in is accomplished easily, and let it pump out through an exit line,.. but that would mean buckets would need to be sealed, and i run 6" net pot bucket lids, filled with hydroton balls there hardly sealed for such a job.

I'm thinking i test this by pumping air into one bucket, through just a cheap air stone to start. I happen to have 2 clones clipped from the same branch seconds apart. There rooting now, will be ready for buckets in a week or two. They might be perfect to test this on. A metered dose of constant air for ones 5 gallon bucket, and i try to never lift the lid on the other. Keep them both in my veg room seeing as the environment is the most equal there, check their root growth after a few weeks and see if there be any significant difference.

I think if one big suck out to refresh the root zone 02 is good, then a consistent slow movement of the air in a root zone would be even better. Nothing like a fan, just a slow exchange of air. We use to grow in dirt, fed/watered only when it rained mostly,.. we moved to aero, and now feed/water precisely. We manipulate the air in grow rooms to have more c02,.. why not manipulate the air around the roots too is what I'm pondering. It's like we freed the slaves, but haven't given them anything cool yet, lol ...do they want anything cool?

 

[DIYer]

You said you don't aerate your res solution tb, how long do you go for before you have to refill? Mine go two weeks,.. gets a lil stagnant in there. Not sure how much 02 a plant really uses from the res solution, but i know it's got to have zero left in it after two weeks in a garbage can. I'm hoping the high level of aeration I'm about to add at least make for good circulation in there. I'd be intreated to know, does anyone else doing HPA aerate there res solution, especially if yours last +2weeks like mine. Once you go the acc route does it seem less worth doing?

 

[Justin00]

i am currently doing some rudimentary experiments with supplemental fogging in a DWC to increase root growth and moisture uptake along with increased air flow to the bulk of the root zone. i know its not really aero but it does fall pretty close.

my findings are plagued with experimental errors and system failures but what results i do have seem positive. my space is currently to limited to preform a full test, and my home made equipment it to fickle to operate seamlessly through out a full life cycle but if everything goes well i should be able to provide reasonable evidence to support an improved method this year.

i doubt my testing would offer any improvement to aero but you never know.

 

[DIYer]

Hey justin, read the last paragraph under 'Benefits of oxygen in the root zone' here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroponics

If you're just lowering the water level in your DWC, which is nothing like aero, and fogging up the upper half of the roots, you're doing what they did back in 88, and they found misting was better for all the root area if possible. I mean are you even bringing in your fogged air from elsewhere? Because if its not fresh air its not really on topic with this thread. I hope that fogger head of yours is out of the res water too, or i guarantee your res temps are too high. And if you don't get your roots out of your res water you'll always have pH swing.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Sounds good... BTW- here is a partial article on the subject- there are some clues in here. What i get out of it is some plants have more 02 requirements than others. After they recieve the full amount they need, more doesn't help. Apparently water is more than capable of carrying the amount needed my any plant under optimal conditions. http://www.jstor.org/pss/2435691
Aero hopes to ensure they get all the o2 they need, but thee is more to it. I believe by providing the optimal conditions that stimulate root hair growth is where the benefit lies. I guess with the correct micron droplet mist size, and proper feed cycles where the roots get what they need, when they need, but are not saturated with liquid is what aero does to facilitate this.

 

[DIYer]

no article link..

 

[Thedillestpickle]

I think your overcomplicating it. The roots will use up the oxygen pressent in the air but it takes a long time... Think about CO2, it takes some time for a plant to turn 400ppm air to 200ppm air.. thats only a difference of 200ppm... Oxygen is present at around 27% of the total air! which is roughly 270000ppm... see the difference? 400ppm < 270000ppm

The small amount of airflow given through the clay balls in the net pot will be adequate to keep the O2 levels up

If you want to bring it up a little bit higher you could probably put a small hole in the lid, and stick a black straw with a bend in it, into that hole(this way no light will go through the straw and no water will splash out.

If you keep the water temperature of your res low the RH coming out of the bucket will be fairly low, as the water saturated air that leaves the cool bucket warms up to the temperature of the rest of the grow room, the RH will fall. Damp cool air becomes very dry when you heat it up.

I think your plans to build all this crazy tubing and vent out your buckets are way too much work... and if you understand the science that I just explained then youll know its also a waste of time

good luck

Edit: If you still want to go ahead and put alot of work into this anyways, then maybe consider injecting pure O2 from a tank of oxygen into the buckets on a timer to go off every 24 hours or so. Perhaps you could rig a standard O2 tank used for Oxy/Acetylene up with an CO2 injector assembly normally used for CO2 enrichment, run that on a timer to go off for 20 seconds every day right before lights off... that actually might give you noticeable results

Edit Edit: 100% O2 may be toxic to plants. You'll be the first one to find out